How is this even a conversation anymore? All of the characters are basically just other versions of the main character. Same dude who just looks a bit different. Are we really all going to just sit here and totally ignore that context? Even if that was not the case its STILL not an issue. Really not in the mood to repeat the same reasons why Ubisoft should be able to make whatever Ubisoft wants. I'm sure you can find some proper counter arguments in this thread.
The real significance of female protagonists
- Thread starter Matthew Jabour
- Start date
Well, it doesn't need a male protagonist either. I see what you are saying, but when the only reason a particular person is the "hero" of the game line is "you share genetic material with someone from the past." Well, why couldn't one of the decendents of Altair be female? After several hundred years of family generations, none of them were female and joined the Assassins?Matthew Jabour said:
It's an artificially created restriction that doesn't make any sense, biologically or from a storytelling perspective.
Now if you set up the premise to specifically point this out. "The Assassins only accept the sons of those killed by the Templars" or "The Animus can only lock in on the Y chromosome because of SCIENCE" ok fine. It's still really lame IMO, but it would at least be established.
But they don't do that.
The Assassins clearly accept female members, as evidenced in Brotherhood. And that one game associated with Black Flag, where you play as a female protagonist, indicates the Animus can track women. So....given their own setting, there isn't any reason they couldn't have a female protagonist for one of their main games. Which means all the reasons for it are simply artifical, produced by Ubisoft for flimsy reasons.
Slightly off-topic there I guess, since you weren't really focusing on AC: Unity specifically, but, you did start the post talking about it, so I guess it's not too off-topic. xD
Because we are talking about it.Robert Marrs said:
Nope, we have discussed that context, and the stupidity of the concept itself, that's just not the focus of this thread. That the hero is some Agent Smith from Matrix: Reloaded kind of thing, duplicating over and over, or that he's got multiple personalities. Or that Ubisoft is just dumb and layed a thin coat of bullshit paint saying "they're all the same guy!! only they're not from your point of view! the other guys are just someone else..or..some such junk..um..yeah that makes sense!"Robert Marrs said:
Yes it is.Robert Marrs said:
Sure, they can make whatever game they want. But since they hope that we are going to buy it, and come up with a really, really stupid reason why you can't play a female character, we have every right to criticize them about it, and call them out on their stupid business practices.Robert Marrs said:
Sure, they have every right to make a male centric game with a really stupid explanation why women aren't included, that is 100% true, but we have every right to call them on their bullshit, and point out how we, the consumer, don't like the product they are making, and why.
[Kira Must Die said:
If UbiSoft decides it wants to release a buggy game which looks way worse than the trailers, has mediocre mechanics, an awful story, or is just 3 hours long, will you jump to their defense too telling everyone that "Ubisoft should be able to make whatever Ubisoft wants"? Better yet, make this game the third game or so of a franchise that you love? Will you? No? I thought so.Robert Marrs said:
Do all of you who keep making this argument have so little self-awareness that you don't realize this excuse, this reason for why people shouldn't critizice a game, (almost) always only comes up in one specific context?
Alien colonial marines has people defending it.CloudAtlas said:
Metal gear ground zero has people defending it.
War Z has people defending it.
It's all a matter of percepective. And some issues are bigger or smaller than others. What those issues are, and how important they are is completly subjective.
Because all of those things are not opinionated. The whole argument you are in support of is an emotion based one. You don't like how something that ubisoft is doing makes you feel. Buggy, glitchy games are just plain bad. Not having women in an assassins creed game is just personal preference and its not objectively bad. Things like awful story and flat out advertisement lies always deserve to be called out because it shows they are not doing their jobs properly. Them choosing what characters they want to include or not include its just a subjective issue that will bother some people. A+ for effort though.CloudAtlas said:
Would you mind telling me exactly why this is an issue? A logic based argument that holds up under some questioning? Any kind of reason other than "if you don't get it its just because your a bigot". I don't think anyone has ever given me a solid reason as to why this matters beyond their own emotions. At least not one that holds up when examined.Happyninja42 said:
No, I don't like some content - or the absence of content - in game. How is the existence or non-existence of playable female characters any different from any other content that might be lacking or absent in a game?Robert Marrs said:
You cannot claim that a female option is something totally subjective, purely personal preference, whereas a lame story is not - many people don't care about the story, and many people like stories that you would consider bad. Same as many people not minding lazy ports, or mechanics you might find mediocre, or whatever.
Something like the lack of a female option in a multiplayer game is almost always worthy of critique, because the only reason not to include it is almost always, well... "too much effort". Which is exactly what UbiSoft is critiziced for here.
So...
To you as well.
Put yourself into a female gamer's shoes who doesn't get the option to play as a protagonist of her own gender all too often. That is why it is an issue. If you don't get it, then you might not be a bigot, but a bit more empathy might do you well.Robert Marrs said:
Or a male gamer who prefers to play the fair gender as protagonist. We're around, too! Though I suppose my preferred genre means I'm not dealing with any significant lack of those. Then again, I wish I could play something other than your usual insecure middle-school bishonen in JRPGs now and then, yes.CloudAtlas said:
The thing is those SAME EXACT SHOES are the shoes for anyone that likes any type of niche games. People that like JRPG's, Horror games, Rouge likes and lites, artsy, visual novels and so on all are the same EXACT way and feeling. It's hard for gamers to get a game they like that isn't the sure fire AAA money making machine. But most niche markets, when a video game comes out trying to cater to them, as long as it's half way decent they'll but it and still enjoy it because what it does is give them the experience that can't be readily gotten in other games, and buying those games paves the road for more games.CloudAtlas said:
And the same way in those same pair of shoes, If you stick up your nose at the people when they tried to provide you with the niche experience you've been screaming for. It just tells them that people don't actually want to spend money on those thing, why should we try.
That is an emotion based argument. Logically if the market actually called for more diversity companies would provide it. The fact remains that most gamers could care less what race or gender the characters in their games are so long as the game is fun. The escapist does not really reflect that attitude but this isn't exactly a huge gaming website(no disrespect to the escapist just saying in comparison to say game informer or pcgamer its not quite as well known). I'm sure Ubisoft knows exactly what their demographics are. The only reason they even respond to issues like this is because it spreads beyond gaming. SJWs who are not even gamers will harass Ubisoft on all forms of social media over some imagined slight until they break down and make a statement. That statement usually just results in more smug insults towards them.CloudAtlas said:
The people who complain about things like this that ARE gamers make up an extremely vocal minority. Women in general who are buying AAA titles are still in a minority. When the market calls for diversity (not just people complaining about it online) large companies like Ubisoft will be the first to adopt said diversity. If issues like this were actually going to affect sales in any significant manner Ubisoft would be all over in as would any other large gaming company. That is the logic behind my argument. You still have failed to provide anything but emotion.
Honestly I think with Ubisoft thing is was more of bullshit something about "it being too hard". Its is not hard to make one I will agree Ubisoft dropped the ball with this one a four player co-op but with modifications of the same character and no customization? They can do that but still they pretty much dropped the ball.
And making games with female protagonist should not be seen as niche it mean it should be easy because as black male I would love game that is not Marlow Briggs that is a main character that is not a sports game or a crime open world. I am just laughing because making female protagonist should not be no big deal as it should be despite all this stuff about "markets". Personally the game industry needs to do something about how manage money because the way some game can make so much money but still be in red is just derp but is another discussion.
I say make the characters don't worry about them being perfect and let chips fall down.
And making games with female protagonist should not be seen as niche it mean it should be easy because as black male I would love game that is not Marlow Briggs that is a main character that is not a sports game or a crime open world. I am just laughing because making female protagonist should not be no big deal as it should be despite all this stuff about "markets". Personally the game industry needs to do something about how manage money because the way some game can make so much money but still be in red is just derp but is another discussion.
I say make the characters don't worry about them being perfect and let chips fall down.
We must be playing different jrpgs mine are usually the shonen type or too cool bishonen but I don't mind. In my opinion despite the rage Final Fantasy XIII causes I enjoy Lightning as a character since the other jrpgs I played with soft spoken healer type #39539.Vegosiux said:
Anyone else find it kinda weird that Ubisoft say it's too expensive to make playable female characters in Assassins Creed when Ubisoft had playable female characters in Rainbow Six: Vegas games that didn't seem to change anything? I would think the Creed games are more profitable and could indulge in spending a bit more.
Plus, they have Aveline from Liberation.Arslan Aladeen said:
And, hey, if animating, designing etc. female characters is so laborious and so expensive then shouldn't Tecmo Koei be out of business? *snicker*
Anyway, don't forget that this is the same company that apparently called Beyond Good and Evil a mistake. (And I just want to add because I've been itching to say it for a while that I love the fact that the game starts off with Jade running out of electricity during an attack and without any money to boot.)
First off, I never called you a bigot, in fact I didn't use that word at all in my statement, or direct any of my comments to you personally. So don't inject something like that into what I said.Robert Marrs said:
You want a non-emotional argument? Fine, you can have my reason for it, which has no emotional involvement, as I truly don't have any personal investment in the discussion. I'm not frothing at the mouth about this topic, but I do have a stance on it.
It's an issue, because the player base (ie: the company's customer base and way of making money) is tired of the homogenous nature of the characters they are allowed to play in the games that are made. They want some variety, some options, some choice in who they get to play as in the games they spend their money on. And I do emphasize allowed, because the developer is holding all the cards when it comes to the final content of the game. And like I said before, that's their right, they can make whatever game they want. But again, like I said before, and in fact said in the post you quoted, we don't have to like it, or buy it, and we have every right to criticize them for the product. They made it, and put it out for the public to consume and review, well here you go, this is our review of it. When you make a product for the public, the public has a right to state their views on the quality of your product. Same with any product. We can state why it's good/bad, worth/not worth your money, or what could be improved. It's just simple economics. We don't have to just accept whatever they give us, we have a right to say "nope, sorry, I don't like the product you're giving me. It's repetitive, it's cliche, and it's dull. If you want my dollar, make a game with more variety, other than White Guy."
And the company has every right to say "Pssh, whatever, I'mma keep making White Guy games". And they can, they have every right to make that game, and I will criticize anyone that says they can't, or tries to prevent that company from making whatever game they want. But again, that doesn't protect them from criticism for their product, or their business model. If you make a product that the customer base finds crappy, be prepared for crappy PR and reviews.
Now, that out of the way, the main issue with Unity, as has been explained multiple times in other places and on this site as well.
The reason they gave for why they don't have women, is a stupid reason. It's just stupid. "All of you play the same guy! Just different!" ...well how the hell does that work? And why? Why does an assault squad comprised of the same guy, just wearing different clothes, make any sense? Especially given the Animus plot device. That is a bizarre, and highly illogical plot device to explain away multiplayer. I will acknowledge that maybe they painted themselves into a corner, plot wise, to explain it, based on the plot events of Unity, I don't know, I haven't read anything that specific about it. But that doesn't excuse that the reason is still a stupid reason. Bad writing is bad writing, and bad game design is bad game design. Also the whole "it's more expensive" reason doesn't really float either, given their budget, and a lot of the stuff they put into games that could easily be left out to cut corners budget wise.
The other reason is that it's just bizarre based on the human species. There is a full 50% (possibly more based on census) of the population that isn't being represented in the game world. I'm not talking about the female players exclusively, I'm talking about the fact that women do stuff too meaning just by simple averages, the likelihood of a woman doing some stuff cool enough to base a video game around, is pretty high. And again, as I stated before, it's already been established in the Assassin Creed-verse, that women are members of the order. And over several centuries of children, and family branching that takes place, there is a lot of potential for female decendents of the Altair line. And that is the only requirement for being an AC protagonist. "You have a genetic tie to the Altair line, or whatever genetic line we're using at the time." Well hey, I bet there's a couple women born from Altair's line. So, again, why not have them be a protagonist? There isn't any logical reason, in-game, or real life to exclude them. And at least some of the customer base wants to see an AC game with a female protagonist. The only reason that Ubisoft can give, that I would actually believe at this point is "we just don't want to".
And that's fine, again, they can do that if they wan't But the reasons they have given, are demonstrably wrong, and also just silly. So yeah, we're going to call them out on it.
Was that logical enough for you?
I'd be willing to bet that I personally own more games with female protagonists (or where you can select the gender of the protagonist) than most of the people who complain about there not being enough games with female protagonists. Of a pretty broad variety of genres, types, platforms, and budgets.Vault101 said:
Of course, what happens is that those games suddenly "don't count" for one reason or another, because what they are really complaining about ultimately is about half a dozen franchises not having female protagonists and pretending that generalizes out to "all games."
Of course, when you *do* have a game that meets most of the restrictions people like to place, it doesn't sell even when it should be everything they ask for. Duke Nukem Forever, a game that's generally the go-to example of development hell and AAA games going horribly wrong sold 4 copies for every copy of Remember Me that sold (which was middling but not bad but mostly failed to live up to the awesome potential of it's own setting). What does that say about the people complaining about a lack of female protagonists? Either there aren't a whole lot of them, or they don't put their money where their mouth is. For the record, I bought Remember Me new, and won't pick up DNF until it goes under $4.99.