The Sad Truth About Global Warming

[Strazdas]

Climate Change is used because "Global Warming" implies the entire planet is uniformly warming up, and thus areas where the climate is actually changing toward colder temperatures immediately 'invalidates' the claims of Global Warming - "If the world's heating up, why has each year set more record-low temperatures than the last?!"

No. Global Warming implies that entire planet is warming (not necesserely Uniformly). this is a known fact. While some regions have cooled, other regions have more than made up for it in terns of temperature rise. if somone was to measure the average temperature of the planet there would be an increase. So no, single area being colder does not invalidate Global Warming term.

And if Global Warming is a natural climate cycle do we prevent it too? I mean, it is also a very possible scenario, the Earth has gone through a few hot/cold cycles since it's inception, by "putting out the fire" without knowing what we are doing, may we not be screwing around with something that would initially be what was "supposed to happen"?.

Global warming and cooling is a natural cycle that takes millions of years to happen. We have calculated that we have shortened the cycle by over 100.000 years.

And hell yes we prevent it. unless you want to be extinct. What is "supposed to happen" to the planet has not historically bared well on its inhabitants.

I still remember when i was a kid and they always told me before the year 2000 the ice caps would be totally melted.

The reason they havent is because people who were shouting that in the 80s actually managed to make industry waste far less. for example we banned the use of most dangerous gasses in household appliances completely, thus pretty much saving our Ozone layer just in time. we also added many variuos other filtration and recycling methods to slow down the damage done. in result - the icevaps are melting slower than old models predicted.

in other words - our efforts worked!

Frankly, i wonder why nobody seems to acknowledge that the human popuation is the root cause of everything.

If there were less humans around, there simply wouldnt be a need to produce so much to support them.

Probably going to get some flak for that statement. Wouldnt be the first time and i look forward to adding some names to the ignore list.

Because every time you do - you get labeled a human hating psychopath and all your arguments are automatically disgarded. couple that with the fact that our capitalist system can only work with population increase and would collapse if population started decreasing and you get the result that noone wants to hear it and everyone goes out of their way to shut everyone stating this.

Why does it matter? Are we really not going to continue living if the earth heats up and water levels rise? we will just move further inland. I might be biased living in Canada but it does not exactly seem like we are using up all our space over here. I'm worried about bees though.

Id like to see you move, say, Los Angeles. You do realize that over 80% of human population on this earth lives on coastlines that will go underwater with polar caps melting? While you may not feel it, there are towns in india already sinking and the inhabitants got nowhere to go. You live in one of the most sparsely populated countries, so you dont see problems of moving a billion people away.

Not to mention that this shift im temperature is already killing thousands of species that are not as adoptable as humans. we may be able to just move away, but it wont help of we starve once things stop growing.

What rational being cares what is causing global warming? If you house catches fire, you don't sit there debating how it started.

funny you mention house fires, considering that firemen and police work together to find out what caused it in all cases where it is not obvious. In fact Many firemen try to find out if the cause of fire was electric due to different ways of handling such fires (due to increased risk of electrification).

Do you think they wait two weeks for blood test results to come back before taking action to bring down the fever? Of course not.

a bit off topic but two weeks? what kind of doctor do you visit? the one i go to does the blood test locally and has results the same day.

 

[Nimcha]

A nice article, but the last few sentences are unnecessary. Easily blaming everything on evil corporations and governments is not only naive but also way too simplistic.

 

[spartan231490]

What rational being cares what is causing global warming? If you house catches fire, you don't sit there debating how it started.

funny you mention house fires, considering that firemen and police work together to find out what caused it in all cases where it is not obvious. In fact Many firemen try to find out if the cause of fire was electric due to different ways of handling such fires (due to increased risk of electrification).

Not until the fire is out. while the fire is still burning, the number one concern is to stop it. As for electrocution, that is a risk in any building with a live power grid, whether the fire was electrical or not. They don't bother caring, they cut power to the building.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

The problem with climate issues is humans can not do anything in moderation and when current profit is driven by an absolute mentality to raise profits no matter what.....meh humanity sucks....

 

[Kargathia]

The opinions expressed in this news editorial are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of The Escapist.

Really? That is real weak sauce. Do you have some right wing overlords, or are you scared FOX News will mock you, or something?

That'd be a sign of a given platform having some journalistic integrity - not trying to sneakily pass off opinion pieces as news articles, regardless of whether they agree with them.

Of course, there's a lot more at play in the global warming discussion - politics and capitalism, namely - which leads me to what I find saddest of all: that we need the threat of impending doom as a motivator to pollute less. Whether or not you believe that humanity is the leading cause of global warming, I think we can all agree that being kinder to our environment is in our best interest. But the myopic views of governments and corporations bent on holding power and money care too much for their immediate bottom-line to do the right, forward-thinking thing - they would rather invest in themselves than in humanity. This is the root cause of all the alarmism, all the frustration, the anger, the arguing, the vitriol surrounding global warming. And every time climate change hits the headlines, we are reminded of this sad truth.

I was totally on board with this article until this paragraph. Really disappointing to see what was up to that point a decent opinion piece suddenly devolve into "It's all the fault of evil governments and corporations. Capitalism is bad!" This is just pandering to everyone who wants to point their finger and assign blame while accepting no personal responsibility.

While I agree with the rest of your post, aren't you pinning his words a little quickly on "dem evil capitalist corporations"? He was much less specific, stating that those with power and money are mostly interested in hanging on to said money and power.
A quick look at a history book will reveal this to be true regardless of socio-economic system.

Both of you agree with eachother - OP focusing on the ones in charge hoarding their money and power, and you preferring the ones who put, and are still putting, said money and power in the hands of those now hoarding it.

Very little contradiction here, be it capitalism, communism, or a theocracy.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

When science is held hostage to public opinion and politics, we harken back to a dark time in our history - a time of witch trials and geocentric worldviews. Years ago, one of my professors - an accomplished scientist - lamented the climate (ahem) in global warming research. The government's historical attitude toward the matter can be very roughly divided into the pre-Al Gore era of, "Blablabla we can't hear you," and the post-Inconvenient Truth era of, "Okay, we believe you; now fix it!" While the latter may seem like a victory, it was a pyrrhic one - in accepting that climate change was occurring, government funding shifted away from further investigating potential causes and toward finding solutions.

this sounds alarming, you got some more sources to confirm this is the trend right now?

Of course, there's a lot more at play in the global warming discussion - politics and capitalism, namely - which leads me to what I find saddest of all: that we need the threat of impending doom as a motivator to pollute less. Whether or not you believe that humanity is the leading cause of global warming, I think we can all agree that being kinder to our environment is in our best interest. But the myopic views of governments and corporations bent on holding power and money care too much for their immediate bottom-line to do the right, forward-thinking thing - they would rather invest in themselves than in humanity.

i understand what you are saying but heres the thing, life rarely has one correct answer for all your problems, you think as corporations as if they were made entirely of guys in suit holding a cigar in their hands and laughing maniacally each time a tree dies

there are many normals folks like you and me working at corporations and the moment you tell a corporation they must reduce their operations, those are the guys that are getting the boot, its hard to think about building a better world for your grandchildren when you cant even feed your kids right now

and then theres this other problem, many countries in the world, such as mine, depend on Oil exports to survive, Oil, if i recall correctly, represents 90% of our exports, is the one thing that has kept this show running for the last 80 years

now youd be right to assume my country is full of idiots who havent put any effort into doing something besides exporting oil, i wont deny that, but the fact remains, any hit to the oil market affects us and affect every country in a similar situation, is it right to sacrifice the livelihood of millions of people to save the planet? could you tell entire countries they have no right to prosper because the planet demands it?

the global warming issue isnt really that clear cut, its not the greed of old men whats destroying the world, but the desperate attempts to survive of millions of people

You really do NOT know how these corporations work do you? You think that the little guy, working at the gas station is going to be asked about losing his job? Or the rig workers over in the Canadian oilpatch in Alberta? No, all they get is a pink slip. Oil is down to 60 or so per barrel, meaning that in order to "keep their profits" the big suits will fire 1000 people. Suncor did this to 1000 Albertans. Yea they tried surviving, now they looking for jobs. So please do not come to me with "but corporations feed people". You are nothing but labour to them.

trust me i had enough talk about how EVIL corporations are for a lifetime

they are a business, plain and simple, they provide labor, im by no means defending them but im simply pointing out the implications of just wanting to wite them off the planet

Also let us see do we want millions to survive? or billions to die? If the patterns persists the way it does a lot of the coastal areas will be flooded. You can kiss good bye to New York, Venice, half of freaking Holland and the coastal areas of the world. Not to mention of the ecological devastation by continued drilling into the ocean (the Gulf disaster that BP had to deal with). The climate change affecting the crops' pattern. The fact that arable land is becoming scarcer with the continued change (Gobi desert is advancing south - http://www.earth-policy.org/plan_b_updates/2003/update26). We are killing ourselves. So you will please excuse if I see through your farcical "but the little guy has to survive". Not when the big boys try to stifle advancements in science and their greed kills the little guy anyways.

Also standard economics, diversify so that if one thing fails, it won't bring you down. Alberta is suffering cause of idiots relying on big oil.

so thats it, you are going to tell millions of people to fuck off? like i said the other guy, never ever expect the world to work together to solve this problem with this attitude, the moment you start talking about how only MY interests alone matter and YOU have to sort your problems out yourself, is the moment you lose a potential ally

if people are going to do something about climate change it has to be a collective effort, from the scientists isolating the definitive causes and possible solutions to the problems, to the countries offering support to those nations that need it if they have to reduce their oil production, to the individuals becoming more conscious themselves and limiting their power consumption

 

[Naraku578]

You know this reminds me of "Fat Head" a documentary that stated the last 30 or so years of believing that fat/saturated fat caused heart disease and not sugar. The documentary pretty much states that any study that did not follow the narrative was discredited and had all its funding pulled. Only now, people are starting to realize that they were wrong.

Well, I do not know enough about climate science, but why can't it happen again?

 

[Haerthan]

When science is held hostage to public opinion and politics, we harken back to a dark time in our history - a time of witch trials and geocentric worldviews. Years ago, one of my professors - an accomplished scientist - lamented the climate (ahem) in global warming research. The government's historical attitude toward the matter can be very roughly divided into the pre-Al Gore era of, "Blablabla we can't hear you," and the post-Inconvenient Truth era of, "Okay, we believe you; now fix it!" While the latter may seem like a victory, it was a pyrrhic one - in accepting that climate change was occurring, government funding shifted away from further investigating potential causes and toward finding solutions.

this sounds alarming, you got some more sources to confirm this is the trend right now?

Of course, there's a lot more at play in the global warming discussion - politics and capitalism, namely - which leads me to what I find saddest of all: that we need the threat of impending doom as a motivator to pollute less. Whether or not you believe that humanity is the leading cause of global warming, I think we can all agree that being kinder to our environment is in our best interest. But the myopic views of governments and corporations bent on holding power and money care too much for their immediate bottom-line to do the right, forward-thinking thing - they would rather invest in themselves than in humanity.

i understand what you are saying but heres the thing, life rarely has one correct answer for all your problems, you think as corporations as if they were made entirely of guys in suit holding a cigar in their hands and laughing maniacally each time a tree dies

there are many normals folks like you and me working at corporations and the moment you tell a corporation they must reduce their operations, those are the guys that are getting the boot, its hard to think about building a better world for your grandchildren when you cant even feed your kids right now

and then theres this other problem, many countries in the world, such as mine, depend on Oil exports to survive, Oil, if i recall correctly, represents 90% of our exports, is the one thing that has kept this show running for the last 80 years

now youd be right to assume my country is full of idiots who havent put any effort into doing something besides exporting oil, i wont deny that, but the fact remains, any hit to the oil market affects us and affect every country in a similar situation, is it right to sacrifice the livelihood of millions of people to save the planet? could you tell entire countries they have no right to prosper because the planet demands it?

the global warming issue isnt really that clear cut, its not the greed of old men whats destroying the world, but the desperate attempts to survive of millions of people

You really do NOT know how these corporations work do you? You think that the little guy, working at the gas station is going to be asked about losing his job? Or the rig workers over in the Canadian oilpatch in Alberta? No, all they get is a pink slip. Oil is down to 60 or so per barrel, meaning that in order to "keep their profits" the big suits will fire 1000 people. Suncor did this to 1000 Albertans. Yea they tried surviving, now they looking for jobs. So please do not come to me with "but corporations feed people". You are nothing but labour to them.

trust me i had enough talk about how EVIL corporations are for a lifetime

they are a business, plain and simple, they provide labor, im by no means defending them but im simply pointing out the implications of just wanting to wite them off the planet

Also let us see do we want millions to survive? or billions to die? If the patterns persists the way it does a lot of the coastal areas will be flooded. You can kiss good bye to New York, Venice, half of freaking Holland and the coastal areas of the world. Not to mention of the ecological devastation by continued drilling into the ocean (the Gulf disaster that BP had to deal with). The climate change affecting the crops' pattern. The fact that arable land is becoming scarcer with the continued change (Gobi desert is advancing south - http://www.earth-policy.org/plan_b_updates/2003/update26). We are killing ourselves. So you will please excuse if I see through your farcical "but the little guy has to survive". Not when the big boys try to stifle advancements in science and their greed kills the little guy anyways.

Also standard economics, diversify so that if one thing fails, it won't bring you down. Alberta is suffering cause of idiots relying on big oil.

so thats it, you are going to tell millions of people to fuck off? like i said the other guy, never ever expect the world to work together to solve this problem with this attitude, the moment you start talking about how only MY interests alone matter and YOU have to sort your problems out yourself, is the moment you lose a potential ally

if people are going to do something about climate change it has to be a collective effort, from the scientists isolating the definitive causes and possible solutions to the problems, to the countries offering support to those nations that need it if they have to reduce their oil production, to the individuals becoming more conscious themselves and limiting their power consumption

Dude you haven't read all of it. I never said that. Second I did pose the questions of millions vs billions. And most people already know that it is a collective effort to solve this entire thing. I never bought into the whole "dark ecology" mindset, cause it will never work, not with 7 billion of us. I can easily put my consumption to a lower habit. It is a matter of simply unplugging my computer. But like I said not everyone thinks that way.

And yes people are tired of "corporations are evil" line. But only cause it is true. Canadian mining corporations are ruining Romania's cultural and natural heritage by using cyanide in their mining operations, which is controversial due to its polluting factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_cyanidation#Effects_on_the_environment). So tell me how they aren't evil. Sure it is a business and all that jazz, but that doesn't mean we can't criticize it.

 

[Lightknight]

So the sad truth is that the topic is controversial which in turn makes it difficult to make real progress?

I'm sure it is, but every doomsday theory is currently bidding for our time. The difference being that Global Warming has the actual numbers to back it up.

I do wonder what sort of responses the environment has on temperature increase. For example, would we eventually become a rain-world if the temperatures got hot enough? Does the temperature of the world have any impact on volcanic eruptions (since we know the reverse happens for entirely different reasons)? How certain are we that the temperatures will increase without additional processes kicking in?

Not that I think that means we shouldn't be concerned about this. I'm also loving the push towards renewable and clean energy. But I'd be fascinated to know if our planet that went from molten landscape to what it is today has any additional means to combat overwarming.

 

[Las7]

You know this reminds me of "Fat Head" a documentary that stated the last 30 or so years of believing that fat/saturated fat caused heart disease and not sugar. The documentary pretty much states that any study that did not follow the narrative was discredited and had all its funding pulled. Only now, people are starting to realize that they were wrong.

Well, I do not know enough about climate science, but why can't it happen again?

Yes an anecdote about one "documentary", you should certainly go on some shows and cite this as evidence.

It's people's job to be able to predict the effects of climate change. It's their job to do studies which stand the test of their peers and publish them.

It's hilarious that people don't take these issues more seriously.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

When science is held hostage to public opinion and politics, we harken back to a dark time in our history - a time of witch trials and geocentric worldviews. Years ago, one of my professors - an accomplished scientist - lamented the climate (ahem) in global warming research. The government's historical attitude toward the matter can be very roughly divided into the pre-Al Gore era of, "Blablabla we can't hear you," and the post-Inconvenient Truth era of, "Okay, we believe you; now fix it!" While the latter may seem like a victory, it was a pyrrhic one - in accepting that climate change was occurring, government funding shifted away from further investigating potential causes and toward finding solutions.

this sounds alarming, you got some more sources to confirm this is the trend right now?

Of course, there's a lot more at play in the global warming discussion - politics and capitalism, namely - which leads me to what I find saddest of all: that we need the threat of impending doom as a motivator to pollute less. Whether or not you believe that humanity is the leading cause of global warming, I think we can all agree that being kinder to our environment is in our best interest. But the myopic views of governments and corporations bent on holding power and money care too much for their immediate bottom-line to do the right, forward-thinking thing - they would rather invest in themselves than in humanity.

i understand what you are saying but heres the thing, life rarely has one correct answer for all your problems, you think as corporations as if they were made entirely of guys in suit holding a cigar in their hands and laughing maniacally each time a tree dies

there are many normals folks like you and me working at corporations and the moment you tell a corporation they must reduce their operations, those are the guys that are getting the boot, its hard to think about building a better world for your grandchildren when you cant even feed your kids right now

and then theres this other problem, many countries in the world, such as mine, depend on Oil exports to survive, Oil, if i recall correctly, represents 90% of our exports, is the one thing that has kept this show running for the last 80 years

now youd be right to assume my country is full of idiots who havent put any effort into doing something besides exporting oil, i wont deny that, but the fact remains, any hit to the oil market affects us and affect every country in a similar situation, is it right to sacrifice the livelihood of millions of people to save the planet? could you tell entire countries they have no right to prosper because the planet demands it?

the global warming issue isnt really that clear cut, its not the greed of old men whats destroying the world, but the desperate attempts to survive of millions of people

You really do NOT know how these corporations work do you? You think that the little guy, working at the gas station is going to be asked about losing his job? Or the rig workers over in the Canadian oilpatch in Alberta? No, all they get is a pink slip. Oil is down to 60 or so per barrel, meaning that in order to "keep their profits" the big suits will fire 1000 people. Suncor did this to 1000 Albertans. Yea they tried surviving, now they looking for jobs. So please do not come to me with "but corporations feed people". You are nothing but labour to them.

trust me i had enough talk about how EVIL corporations are for a lifetime

they are a business, plain and simple, they provide labor, im by no means defending them but im simply pointing out the implications of just wanting to wite them off the planet

Also let us see do we want millions to survive? or billions to die? If the patterns persists the way it does a lot of the coastal areas will be flooded. You can kiss good bye to New York, Venice, half of freaking Holland and the coastal areas of the world. Not to mention of the ecological devastation by continued drilling into the ocean (the Gulf disaster that BP had to deal with). The climate change affecting the crops' pattern. The fact that arable land is becoming scarcer with the continued change (Gobi desert is advancing south - http://www.earth-policy.org/plan_b_updates/2003/update26). We are killing ourselves. So you will please excuse if I see through your farcical "but the little guy has to survive". Not when the big boys try to stifle advancements in science and their greed kills the little guy anyways.

Also standard economics, diversify so that if one thing fails, it won't bring you down. Alberta is suffering cause of idiots relying on big oil.

so thats it, you are going to tell millions of people to fuck off? like i said the other guy, never ever expect the world to work together to solve this problem with this attitude, the moment you start talking about how only MY interests alone matter and YOU have to sort your problems out yourself, is the moment you lose a potential ally

if people are going to do something about climate change it has to be a collective effort, from the scientists isolating the definitive causes and possible solutions to the problems, to the countries offering support to those nations that need it if they have to reduce their oil production, to the individuals becoming more conscious themselves and limiting their power consumption

Dude you haven't read all of it. I never said that. Second I did pose the questions of millions vs billions. And most people already know that it is a collective effort to solve this entire thing. I never bought into the whole "dark ecology" mindset, cause it will never work, not with 7 billion of us. I can easily put my consumption to a lower habit. It is a matter of simply unplugging my computer. But like I said not everyone thinks that way.

And yes people are tired of "corporations are evil" line. But only cause it is true. Canadian mining corporations are ruining Romania's cultural and natural heritage by using cyanide in their mining operations, which is controversial due to its polluting factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_cyanidation#Effects_on_the_environment). So tell me how they aren't evil. Sure it is a business and all that jazz, but that doesn't mean we can't criticize it.

some corporations destroy the environment, some donate millions to charity

lets just say living in my "socialist paradise" made me realize you cant just put a blanket on corporations, just like you cant put a blanket on pretty much anything else

when they do terrible and/or illegal shit, but all means their actions should be called out and judged, but i think its in the best interest of everyone that we all try to work together instead of pointing fingers and saying whose interests dont matter

 

[Haerthan]

When science is held hostage to public opinion and politics, we harken back to a dark time in our history - a time of witch trials and geocentric worldviews. Years ago, one of my professors - an accomplished scientist - lamented the climate (ahem) in global warming research. The government's historical attitude toward the matter can be very roughly divided into the pre-Al Gore era of, "Blablabla we can't hear you," and the post-Inconvenient Truth era of, "Okay, we believe you; now fix it!" While the latter may seem like a victory, it was a pyrrhic one - in accepting that climate change was occurring, government funding shifted away from further investigating potential causes and toward finding solutions.

this sounds alarming, you got some more sources to confirm this is the trend right now?

Of course, there's a lot more at play in the global warming discussion - politics and capitalism, namely - which leads me to what I find saddest of all: that we need the threat of impending doom as a motivator to pollute less. Whether or not you believe that humanity is the leading cause of global warming, I think we can all agree that being kinder to our environment is in our best interest. But the myopic views of governments and corporations bent on holding power and money care too much for their immediate bottom-line to do the right, forward-thinking thing - they would rather invest in themselves than in humanity.

i understand what you are saying but heres the thing, life rarely has one correct answer for all your problems, you think as corporations as if they were made entirely of guys in suit holding a cigar in their hands and laughing maniacally each time a tree dies

there are many normals folks like you and me working at corporations and the moment you tell a corporation they must reduce their operations, those are the guys that are getting the boot, its hard to think about building a better world for your grandchildren when you cant even feed your kids right now

and then theres this other problem, many countries in the world, such as mine, depend on Oil exports to survive, Oil, if i recall correctly, represents 90% of our exports, is the one thing that has kept this show running for the last 80 years

now youd be right to assume my country is full of idiots who havent put any effort into doing something besides exporting oil, i wont deny that, but the fact remains, any hit to the oil market affects us and affect every country in a similar situation, is it right to sacrifice the livelihood of millions of people to save the planet? could you tell entire countries they have no right to prosper because the planet demands it?

the global warming issue isnt really that clear cut, its not the greed of old men whats destroying the world, but the desperate attempts to survive of millions of people

You really do NOT know how these corporations work do you? You think that the little guy, working at the gas station is going to be asked about losing his job? Or the rig workers over in the Canadian oilpatch in Alberta? No, all they get is a pink slip. Oil is down to 60 or so per barrel, meaning that in order to "keep their profits" the big suits will fire 1000 people. Suncor did this to 1000 Albertans. Yea they tried surviving, now they looking for jobs. So please do not come to me with "but corporations feed people". You are nothing but labour to them.

trust me i had enough talk about how EVIL corporations are for a lifetime

they are a business, plain and simple, they provide labor, im by no means defending them but im simply pointing out the implications of just wanting to wite them off the planet

Also let us see do we want millions to survive? or billions to die? If the patterns persists the way it does a lot of the coastal areas will be flooded. You can kiss good bye to New York, Venice, half of freaking Holland and the coastal areas of the world. Not to mention of the ecological devastation by continued drilling into the ocean (the Gulf disaster that BP had to deal with). The climate change affecting the crops' pattern. The fact that arable land is becoming scarcer with the continued change (Gobi desert is advancing south - http://www.earth-policy.org/plan_b_updates/2003/update26). We are killing ourselves. So you will please excuse if I see through your farcical "but the little guy has to survive". Not when the big boys try to stifle advancements in science and their greed kills the little guy anyways.

Also standard economics, diversify so that if one thing fails, it won't bring you down. Alberta is suffering cause of idiots relying on big oil.

so thats it, you are going to tell millions of people to fuck off? like i said the other guy, never ever expect the world to work together to solve this problem with this attitude, the moment you start talking about how only MY interests alone matter and YOU have to sort your problems out yourself, is the moment you lose a potential ally

if people are going to do something about climate change it has to be a collective effort, from the scientists isolating the definitive causes and possible solutions to the problems, to the countries offering support to those nations that need it if they have to reduce their oil production, to the individuals becoming more conscious themselves and limiting their power consumption

Dude you haven't read all of it. I never said that. Second I did pose the questions of millions vs billions. And most people already know that it is a collective effort to solve this entire thing. I never bought into the whole "dark ecology" mindset, cause it will never work, not with 7 billion of us. I can easily put my consumption to a lower habit. It is a matter of simply unplugging my computer. But like I said not everyone thinks that way.

And yes people are tired of "corporations are evil" line. But only cause it is true. Canadian mining corporations are ruining Romania's cultural and natural heritage by using cyanide in their mining operations, which is controversial due to its polluting factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_cyanidation#Effects_on_the_environment). So tell me how they aren't evil. Sure it is a business and all that jazz, but that doesn't mean we can't criticize it.

some corporations destroy the environment, some donate millions to charity

lets just say living in my "socialist paradise" made me realize you cant just put a blanket on corporations, just like you cant put a blanket on pretty much anything else

when they do terrible and/or illegal shit, but all means their actions should be called out and judged, but i think its in the best interest of everyone that we all try to work together instead of pointing fingers and saying whose interests dont matter

Sure donations. Sure. Dude those donations are simply a tax write off, one of the many loopholes they use to pay their fair share.And if those donations actually did something, let us just say that Africa would be far better off. I am definitely judging corporations and pointing fingers. And where are you from? Norway? Because guess what, Norway set aside some money for rainy days. So no I don't think Norway is filled with idiots.

Also the rich and their interests DO NOT NEED DEFENDING.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

When science is held hostage to public opinion and politics, we harken back to a dark time in our history - a time of witch trials and geocentric worldviews. Years ago, one of my professors - an accomplished scientist - lamented the climate (ahem) in global warming research. The government's historical attitude toward the matter can be very roughly divided into the pre-Al Gore era of, "Blablabla we can't hear you," and the post-Inconvenient Truth era of, "Okay, we believe you; now fix it!" While the latter may seem like a victory, it was a pyrrhic one - in accepting that climate change was occurring, government funding shifted away from further investigating potential causes and toward finding solutions.

this sounds alarming, you got some more sources to confirm this is the trend right now?

Of course, there's a lot more at play in the global warming discussion - politics and capitalism, namely - which leads me to what I find saddest of all: that we need the threat of impending doom as a motivator to pollute less. Whether or not you believe that humanity is the leading cause of global warming, I think we can all agree that being kinder to our environment is in our best interest. But the myopic views of governments and corporations bent on holding power and money care too much for their immediate bottom-line to do the right, forward-thinking thing - they would rather invest in themselves than in humanity.

i understand what you are saying but heres the thing, life rarely has one correct answer for all your problems, you think as corporations as if they were made entirely of guys in suit holding a cigar in their hands and laughing maniacally each time a tree dies

there are many normals folks like you and me working at corporations and the moment you tell a corporation they must reduce their operations, those are the guys that are getting the boot, its hard to think about building a better world for your grandchildren when you cant even feed your kids right now

and then theres this other problem, many countries in the world, such as mine, depend on Oil exports to survive, Oil, if i recall correctly, represents 90% of our exports, is the one thing that has kept this show running for the last 80 years

now youd be right to assume my country is full of idiots who havent put any effort into doing something besides exporting oil, i wont deny that, but the fact remains, any hit to the oil market affects us and affect every country in a similar situation, is it right to sacrifice the livelihood of millions of people to save the planet? could you tell entire countries they have no right to prosper because the planet demands it?

the global warming issue isnt really that clear cut, its not the greed of old men whats destroying the world, but the desperate attempts to survive of millions of people

You really do NOT know how these corporations work do you? You think that the little guy, working at the gas station is going to be asked about losing his job? Or the rig workers over in the Canadian oilpatch in Alberta? No, all they get is a pink slip. Oil is down to 60 or so per barrel, meaning that in order to "keep their profits" the big suits will fire 1000 people. Suncor did this to 1000 Albertans. Yea they tried surviving, now they looking for jobs. So please do not come to me with "but corporations feed people". You are nothing but labour to them.

trust me i had enough talk about how EVIL corporations are for a lifetime

they are a business, plain and simple, they provide labor, im by no means defending them but im simply pointing out the implications of just wanting to wite them off the planet

Also let us see do we want millions to survive? or billions to die? If the patterns persists the way it does a lot of the coastal areas will be flooded. You can kiss good bye to New York, Venice, half of freaking Holland and the coastal areas of the world. Not to mention of the ecological devastation by continued drilling into the ocean (the Gulf disaster that BP had to deal with). The climate change affecting the crops' pattern. The fact that arable land is becoming scarcer with the continued change (Gobi desert is advancing south - http://www.earth-policy.org/plan_b_updates/2003/update26). We are killing ourselves. So you will please excuse if I see through your farcical "but the little guy has to survive". Not when the big boys try to stifle advancements in science and their greed kills the little guy anyways.

Also standard economics, diversify so that if one thing fails, it won't bring you down. Alberta is suffering cause of idiots relying on big oil.

so thats it, you are going to tell millions of people to fuck off? like i said the other guy, never ever expect the world to work together to solve this problem with this attitude, the moment you start talking about how only MY interests alone matter and YOU have to sort your problems out yourself, is the moment you lose a potential ally

if people are going to do something about climate change it has to be a collective effort, from the scientists isolating the definitive causes and possible solutions to the problems, to the countries offering support to those nations that need it if they have to reduce their oil production, to the individuals becoming more conscious themselves and limiting their power consumption

Dude you haven't read all of it. I never said that. Second I did pose the questions of millions vs billions. And most people already know that it is a collective effort to solve this entire thing. I never bought into the whole "dark ecology" mindset, cause it will never work, not with 7 billion of us. I can easily put my consumption to a lower habit. It is a matter of simply unplugging my computer. But like I said not everyone thinks that way.

And yes people are tired of "corporations are evil" line. But only cause it is true. Canadian mining corporations are ruining Romania's cultural and natural heritage by using cyanide in their mining operations, which is controversial due to its polluting factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_cyanidation#Effects_on_the_environment). So tell me how they aren't evil. Sure it is a business and all that jazz, but that doesn't mean we can't criticize it.

some corporations destroy the environment, some donate millions to charity

lets just say living in my "socialist paradise" made me realize you cant just put a blanket on corporations, just like you cant put a blanket on pretty much anything else

when they do terrible and/or illegal shit, but all means their actions should be called out and judged, but i think its in the best interest of everyone that we all try to work together instead of pointing fingers and saying whose interests dont matter

Sure donations. Sure. Dude those donations are simply a tax write off, one of the many loopholes they use to pay their fair share.And if those donations actually did something, let us just say that Africa would be far better off. I am definitely judging corporations and pointing fingers. And where are you from? Norway? Because guess what, Norway set aside some money for rainy days. So no I don't think Norway is filled with idiots.

Also the rich and their interests DO NOT NEED DEFENDING.

you could just check my profile but alright

Venezuela, i had the government tell me for 15 years that corporations are evil and shit, they statized almost all the mayor industries ont he country and now, nothing works, theres a generalized shortage of everything, compalin about corporations all you want but atleast you can find basic need products, here you will have a hard time finding milk, coffe, toilet paper, flour, car batteries, natural gas, medicines, etc

and if it wasnt obvious enough every single statized business has become a cesspool of inefficiency and corruption where many workers literally belong to the mafia, they are criminals, killers

oh and the inflation is rapant, the highest in the entire world, the crime rates are also one of the highest

so no, i dont buy "all the corporations are evil" there are unscrupulous corporations for sure, and those should be help responsible for their actions, but many arent

and please do not fall into the "fuck the rich" attitude, we are all human beings and they have the right to have their needs being taken into account as well, the "fuck the rich" attitude was also heavily pushed by the government, and that severely divided the country, as many people began to consider middle class folks "rich people", the government was only interested in satisfying the needs of the poor, while never giving them any means to actually succeed, they are being kept poor and stupid by the goverment, the ministry of education literally said in national TV "the objective is not to make the poor middle class so they become part of the opposition"

 

[Haerthan]

When science is held hostage to public opinion and politics, we harken back to a dark time in our history - a time of witch trials and geocentric worldviews. Years ago, one of my professors - an accomplished scientist - lamented the climate (ahem) in global warming research. The government's historical attitude toward the matter can be very roughly divided into the pre-Al Gore era of, "Blablabla we can't hear you," and the post-Inconvenient Truth era of, "Okay, we believe you; now fix it!" While the latter may seem like a victory, it was a pyrrhic one - in accepting that climate change was occurring, government funding shifted away from further investigating potential causes and toward finding solutions.

this sounds alarming, you got some more sources to confirm this is the trend right now?

Of course, there's a lot more at play in the global warming discussion - politics and capitalism, namely - which leads me to what I find saddest of all: that we need the threat of impending doom as a motivator to pollute less. Whether or not you believe that humanity is the leading cause of global warming, I think we can all agree that being kinder to our environment is in our best interest. But the myopic views of governments and corporations bent on holding power and money care too much for their immediate bottom-line to do the right, forward-thinking thing - they would rather invest in themselves than in humanity.

i understand what you are saying but heres the thing, life rarely has one correct answer for all your problems, you think as corporations as if they were made entirely of guys in suit holding a cigar in their hands and laughing maniacally each time a tree dies

there are many normals folks like you and me working at corporations and the moment you tell a corporation they must reduce their operations, those are the guys that are getting the boot, its hard to think about building a better world for your grandchildren when you cant even feed your kids right now

and then theres this other problem, many countries in the world, such as mine, depend on Oil exports to survive, Oil, if i recall correctly, represents 90% of our exports, is the one thing that has kept this show running for the last 80 years

now youd be right to assume my country is full of idiots who havent put any effort into doing something besides exporting oil, i wont deny that, but the fact remains, any hit to the oil market affects us and affect every country in a similar situation, is it right to sacrifice the livelihood of millions of people to save the planet? could you tell entire countries they have no right to prosper because the planet demands it?

the global warming issue isnt really that clear cut, its not the greed of old men whats destroying the world, but the desperate attempts to survive of millions of people

You really do NOT know how these corporations work do you? You think that the little guy, working at the gas station is going to be asked about losing his job? Or the rig workers over in the Canadian oilpatch in Alberta? No, all they get is a pink slip. Oil is down to 60 or so per barrel, meaning that in order to "keep their profits" the big suits will fire 1000 people. Suncor did this to 1000 Albertans. Yea they tried surviving, now they looking for jobs. So please do not come to me with "but corporations feed people". You are nothing but labour to them.

trust me i had enough talk about how EVIL corporations are for a lifetime

they are a business, plain and simple, they provide labor, im by no means defending them but im simply pointing out the implications of just wanting to wite them off the planet

Also let us see do we want millions to survive? or billions to die? If the patterns persists the way it does a lot of the coastal areas will be flooded. You can kiss good bye to New York, Venice, half of freaking Holland and the coastal areas of the world. Not to mention of the ecological devastation by continued drilling into the ocean (the Gulf disaster that BP had to deal with). The climate change affecting the crops' pattern. The fact that arable land is becoming scarcer with the continued change (Gobi desert is advancing south - http://www.earth-policy.org/plan_b_updates/2003/update26). We are killing ourselves. So you will please excuse if I see through your farcical "but the little guy has to survive". Not when the big boys try to stifle advancements in science and their greed kills the little guy anyways.

Also standard economics, diversify so that if one thing fails, it won't bring you down. Alberta is suffering cause of idiots relying on big oil.

so thats it, you are going to tell millions of people to fuck off? like i said the other guy, never ever expect the world to work together to solve this problem with this attitude, the moment you start talking about how only MY interests alone matter and YOU have to sort your problems out yourself, is the moment you lose a potential ally

if people are going to do something about climate change it has to be a collective effort, from the scientists isolating the definitive causes and possible solutions to the problems, to the countries offering support to those nations that need it if they have to reduce their oil production, to the individuals becoming more conscious themselves and limiting their power consumption

Dude you haven't read all of it. I never said that. Second I did pose the questions of millions vs billions. And most people already know that it is a collective effort to solve this entire thing. I never bought into the whole "dark ecology" mindset, cause it will never work, not with 7 billion of us. I can easily put my consumption to a lower habit. It is a matter of simply unplugging my computer. But like I said not everyone thinks that way.

And yes people are tired of "corporations are evil" line. But only cause it is true. Canadian mining corporations are ruining Romania's cultural and natural heritage by using cyanide in their mining operations, which is controversial due to its polluting factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_cyanidation#Effects_on_the_environment). So tell me how they aren't evil. Sure it is a business and all that jazz, but that doesn't mean we can't criticize it.

some corporations destroy the environment, some donate millions to charity

lets just say living in my "socialist paradise" made me realize you cant just put a blanket on corporations, just like you cant put a blanket on pretty much anything else

when they do terrible and/or illegal shit, but all means their actions should be called out and judged, but i think its in the best interest of everyone that we all try to work together instead of pointing fingers and saying whose interests dont matter

Sure donations. Sure. Dude those donations are simply a tax write off, one of the many loopholes they use to pay their fair share.And if those donations actually did something, let us just say that Africa would be far better off. I am definitely judging corporations and pointing fingers. And where are you from? Norway? Because guess what, Norway set aside some money for rainy days. So no I don't think Norway is filled with idiots.

Also the rich and their interests DO NOT NEED DEFENDING.

you could just check my profile but alright

Venezuela, i had the government tell me for 15 years that corporations are evil and shit, they statized almost all the mayor industries ont he country and now, nothing works, theres a generalized shortage of everything, compalin about corporations all you want but atleast you can find basic need products, here you will have a hard time finding milk, coffe, toilet paper, flour, car batteries, natural gas, medicines, etc

and if it wasnt obvious enough every single statized business has become a cesspool of inefficiency and corruption where many workers literally belong to the mafia, they are criminals, killers

oh and the inflation is rapant, the highest in the entire world, the crime rates are also one of the highest

so no, i dont buy "all the corporations are evil" there are unscrupulous corporations for sure, and those should be help responsible for their actions, but many arent

and please do not fall into the "fuck the rich" attitude, we are all human beings and they have the right to have their needs being taken into account as well, the "fuck the rich" attitude was also heavily pushed by the government, and that severely divided the country, as many people began to consider middle class folks "rich people", the government was only interested in satisfying the needs of the poor, while never giving them any means to actually succeed, they are being kept poor and stupid by the goverment, the ministry of education literally said in national TV "the objective is not to make the poor middle class so they become part of the opposition"

Well that explains a lot now.But I do, cause I am from Romania. Guess why I left. Here let me tell what Romania was like in the communist regime: Food and home for everyone, a job for everyone (no unemployment, the police made sure of that), among the top ten exporters of arms (I really take perverse delight in that one for some reason), big fishing fleet, and NO DEBT (we got rid of that in the 1980s). The 1970s for Romania is practically modern-day Canada. Minus the newspapers. Seriously.

Now, unemployment rate of 6.2-7.0 % (in a population of 19.3 million and shrinking). Corruption up the wazoo. Economy in shambles. Fishing fleet gone. Weapons factories more or less gone, I have actually seen how they closed one. But hey now we are in the EU and getting shiny tractors yay (sarcasm if you haven't noted). I already mentioned the cultural and environmental devastation the Canadians are doing in the Carpati. But hey we are now free to starve. A majority and growing wants Nicolae Ceausescu back. That should tell you something.

Every country has its own issue is my point. But it has been proven time and time again that corporations are not benevolent. Going to the other extreme proves nothing, only that your country has its own issues that cannot be solved by going to either extreme. This is a different issue, at least your poor get something to not completely starve. Imagine if it was a company running the show in Venezuela. It would be a repeat of 1950s Cuba. Also there is a reason why Venezuela doesn't exactly like America ( I don't know and I don't care- maybe Cold War shenanigans?). So again I will not retract my "companies are evil" stance because it has been proven time and time again that they only care about their profits. That is all they care about.

Captcha: On the ball. Even captcha believes that we shouldn't drop it when it comes to companies.

 

[Haerthan]

When science is held hostage to public opinion and politics, we harken back to a dark time in our history - a time of witch trials and geocentric worldviews. Years ago, one of my professors - an accomplished scientist - lamented the climate (ahem) in global warming research. The government's historical attitude toward the matter can be very roughly divided into the pre-Al Gore era of, "Blablabla we can't hear you," and the post-Inconvenient Truth era of, "Okay, we believe you; now fix it!" While the latter may seem like a victory, it was a pyrrhic one - in accepting that climate change was occurring, government funding shifted away from further investigating potential causes and toward finding solutions.

this sounds alarming, you got some more sources to confirm this is the trend right now?

Of course, there's a lot more at play in the global warming discussion - politics and capitalism, namely - which leads me to what I find saddest of all: that we need the threat of impending doom as a motivator to pollute less. Whether or not you believe that humanity is the leading cause of global warming, I think we can all agree that being kinder to our environment is in our best interest. But the myopic views of governments and corporations bent on holding power and money care too much for their immediate bottom-line to do the right, forward-thinking thing - they would rather invest in themselves than in humanity.

i understand what you are saying but heres the thing, life rarely has one correct answer for all your problems, you think as corporations as if they were made entirely of guys in suit holding a cigar in their hands and laughing maniacally each time a tree dies

there are many normals folks like you and me working at corporations and the moment you tell a corporation they must reduce their operations, those are the guys that are getting the boot, its hard to think about building a better world for your grandchildren when you cant even feed your kids right now

and then theres this other problem, many countries in the world, such as mine, depend on Oil exports to survive, Oil, if i recall correctly, represents 90% of our exports, is the one thing that has kept this show running for the last 80 years

now youd be right to assume my country is full of idiots who havent put any effort into doing something besides exporting oil, i wont deny that, but the fact remains, any hit to the oil market affects us and affect every country in a similar situation, is it right to sacrifice the livelihood of millions of people to save the planet? could you tell entire countries they have no right to prosper because the planet demands it?

the global warming issue isnt really that clear cut, its not the greed of old men whats destroying the world, but the desperate attempts to survive of millions of people

You really do NOT know how these corporations work do you? You think that the little guy, working at the gas station is going to be asked about losing his job? Or the rig workers over in the Canadian oilpatch in Alberta? No, all they get is a pink slip. Oil is down to 60 or so per barrel, meaning that in order to "keep their profits" the big suits will fire 1000 people. Suncor did this to 1000 Albertans. Yea they tried surviving, now they looking for jobs. So please do not come to me with "but corporations feed people". You are nothing but labour to them.

trust me i had enough talk about how EVIL corporations are for a lifetime

they are a business, plain and simple, they provide labor, im by no means defending them but im simply pointing out the implications of just wanting to wite them off the planet

Also let us see do we want millions to survive? or billions to die? If the patterns persists the way it does a lot of the coastal areas will be flooded. You can kiss good bye to New York, Venice, half of freaking Holland and the coastal areas of the world. Not to mention of the ecological devastation by continued drilling into the ocean (the Gulf disaster that BP had to deal with). The climate change affecting the crops' pattern. The fact that arable land is becoming scarcer with the continued change (Gobi desert is advancing south - http://www.earth-policy.org/plan_b_updates/2003/update26). We are killing ourselves. So you will please excuse if I see through your farcical "but the little guy has to survive". Not when the big boys try to stifle advancements in science and their greed kills the little guy anyways.

Also standard economics, diversify so that if one thing fails, it won't bring you down. Alberta is suffering cause of idiots relying on big oil.

so thats it, you are going to tell millions of people to fuck off? like i said the other guy, never ever expect the world to work together to solve this problem with this attitude, the moment you start talking about how only MY interests alone matter and YOU have to sort your problems out yourself, is the moment you lose a potential ally

if people are going to do something about climate change it has to be a collective effort, from the scientists isolating the definitive causes and possible solutions to the problems, to the countries offering support to those nations that need it if they have to reduce their oil production, to the individuals becoming more conscious themselves and limiting their power consumption

Dude you haven't read all of it. I never said that. Second I did pose the questions of millions vs billions. And most people already know that it is a collective effort to solve this entire thing. I never bought into the whole "dark ecology" mindset, cause it will never work, not with 7 billion of us. I can easily put my consumption to a lower habit. It is a matter of simply unplugging my computer. But like I said not everyone thinks that way.

And yes people are tired of "corporations are evil" line. But only cause it is true. Canadian mining corporations are ruining Romania's cultural and natural heritage by using cyanide in their mining operations, which is controversial due to its polluting factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_cyanidation#Effects_on_the_environment). So tell me how they aren't evil. Sure it is a business and all that jazz, but that doesn't mean we can't criticize it.

some corporations destroy the environment, some donate millions to charity

lets just say living in my "socialist paradise" made me realize you cant just put a blanket on corporations, just like you cant put a blanket on pretty much anything else

when they do terrible and/or illegal shit, but all means their actions should be called out and judged, but i think its in the best interest of everyone that we all try to work together instead of pointing fingers and saying whose interests dont matter

Sure donations. Sure. Dude those donations are simply a tax write off, one of the many loopholes they use to pay their fair share.And if those donations actually did something, let us just say that Africa would be far better off. I am definitely judging corporations and pointing fingers. And where are you from? Norway? Because guess what, Norway set aside some money for rainy days. So no I don't think Norway is filled with idiots.

Also the rich and their interests DO NOT NEED DEFENDING.

you could just check my profile but alright

Venezuela, i had the government tell me for 15 years that corporations are evil and shit, they statized almost all the mayor industries ont he country and now, nothing works, theres a generalized shortage of everything, compalin about corporations all you want but atleast you can find basic need products, here you will have a hard time finding milk, coffe, toilet paper, flour, car batteries, natural gas, medicines, etc

and if it wasnt obvious enough every single statized business has become a cesspool of inefficiency and corruption where many workers literally belong to the mafia, they are criminals, killers

oh and the inflation is rapant, the highest in the entire world, the crime rates are also one of the highest

so no, i dont buy "all the corporations are evil" there are unscrupulous corporations for sure, and those should be help responsible for their actions, but many arent

and please do not fall into the "fuck the rich" attitude, we are all human beings and they have the right to have their needs being taken into account as well, the "fuck the rich" attitude was also heavily pushed by the government, and that severely divided the country, as many people began to consider middle class folks "rich people", the government was only interested in satisfying the needs of the poor, while never giving them any means to actually succeed, they are being kept poor and stupid by the goverment, the ministry of education literally said in national TV "the objective is not to make the poor middle class so they become part of the opposition"

Well that explains a lot now.But I do, cause I am from Romania. Guess why I left. Here let me tell what Romania was like in the communist regime: Food and home for everyone, a job for everyone (no unemployment, the police made sure of that), among the top ten exporters of arms (I really take perverse delight in that one for some reason), big fishing fleet, and NO DEBT (we got rid of that in the 1980s). The 1970s for Romania is practically modern-day Canada. Minus the newspapers. Seriously.

Now, unemployment rate of 6.2-7.0 % (in a population of 19.3 million and shrinking). Corruption up the wazoo. Economy in shambles. Fishing fleet gone. Weapons factories more or less gone, I have actually seen how they closed one. But hey now we are in the EU and getting shiny tractors yay (sarcasm if you haven't noted). I already mentioned the cultural and environmental devastation the Canadians are doing in the Carpati. But hey we are now free to starve. A majority and growing wants Nicolae Ceausescu back. That should tell you something.

Every country has its own issue is my point. But it has been proven time and time again that corporations are not benevolent. Going to the other extreme proves nothing, only that your country has its own issues that cannot be solved by going to either extreme. This is a different issue, at least your poor get something to not completely starve. Imagine if it was a company running the show in Venezuela. It would be a repeat of 1950s Cuba. Also there is a reason why Venezuela doesn't exactly like America ( I don't know and I don't care- maybe Cold War shenanigans?). So again I will not retract my "companies are evil" stance because it has been proven time and time again that they only care about their profits. That is all they care about.

Captcha: On the ball. Even captcha believes that we shouldn't drop it when it comes to companies.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

When science is held hostage to public opinion and politics, we harken back to a dark time in our history - a time of witch trials and geocentric worldviews. Years ago, one of my professors - an accomplished scientist - lamented the climate (ahem) in global warming research. The government's historical attitude toward the matter can be very roughly divided into the pre-Al Gore era of, "Blablabla we can't hear you," and the post-Inconvenient Truth era of, "Okay, we believe you; now fix it!" While the latter may seem like a victory, it was a pyrrhic one - in accepting that climate change was occurring, government funding shifted away from further investigating potential causes and toward finding solutions.

this sounds alarming, you got some more sources to confirm this is the trend right now?

Of course, there's a lot more at play in the global warming discussion - politics and capitalism, namely - which leads me to what I find saddest of all: that we need the threat of impending doom as a motivator to pollute less. Whether or not you believe that humanity is the leading cause of global warming, I think we can all agree that being kinder to our environment is in our best interest. But the myopic views of governments and corporations bent on holding power and money care too much for their immediate bottom-line to do the right, forward-thinking thing - they would rather invest in themselves than in humanity.

i understand what you are saying but heres the thing, life rarely has one correct answer for all your problems, you think as corporations as if they were made entirely of guys in suit holding a cigar in their hands and laughing maniacally each time a tree dies

there are many normals folks like you and me working at corporations and the moment you tell a corporation they must reduce their operations, those are the guys that are getting the boot, its hard to think about building a better world for your grandchildren when you cant even feed your kids right now

and then theres this other problem, many countries in the world, such as mine, depend on Oil exports to survive, Oil, if i recall correctly, represents 90% of our exports, is the one thing that has kept this show running for the last 80 years

now youd be right to assume my country is full of idiots who havent put any effort into doing something besides exporting oil, i wont deny that, but the fact remains, any hit to the oil market affects us and affect every country in a similar situation, is it right to sacrifice the livelihood of millions of people to save the planet? could you tell entire countries they have no right to prosper because the planet demands it?

the global warming issue isnt really that clear cut, its not the greed of old men whats destroying the world, but the desperate attempts to survive of millions of people

You really do NOT know how these corporations work do you? You think that the little guy, working at the gas station is going to be asked about losing his job? Or the rig workers over in the Canadian oilpatch in Alberta? No, all they get is a pink slip. Oil is down to 60 or so per barrel, meaning that in order to "keep their profits" the big suits will fire 1000 people. Suncor did this to 1000 Albertans. Yea they tried surviving, now they looking for jobs. So please do not come to me with "but corporations feed people". You are nothing but labour to them.

trust me i had enough talk about how EVIL corporations are for a lifetime

they are a business, plain and simple, they provide labor, im by no means defending them but im simply pointing out the implications of just wanting to wite them off the planet

Also let us see do we want millions to survive? or billions to die? If the patterns persists the way it does a lot of the coastal areas will be flooded. You can kiss good bye to New York, Venice, half of freaking Holland and the coastal areas of the world. Not to mention of the ecological devastation by continued drilling into the ocean (the Gulf disaster that BP had to deal with). The climate change affecting the crops' pattern. The fact that arable land is becoming scarcer with the continued change (Gobi desert is advancing south - http://www.earth-policy.org/plan_b_updates/2003/update26). We are killing ourselves. So you will please excuse if I see through your farcical "but the little guy has to survive". Not when the big boys try to stifle advancements in science and their greed kills the little guy anyways.

Also standard economics, diversify so that if one thing fails, it won't bring you down. Alberta is suffering cause of idiots relying on big oil.

so thats it, you are going to tell millions of people to fuck off? like i said the other guy, never ever expect the world to work together to solve this problem with this attitude, the moment you start talking about how only MY interests alone matter and YOU have to sort your problems out yourself, is the moment you lose a potential ally

if people are going to do something about climate change it has to be a collective effort, from the scientists isolating the definitive causes and possible solutions to the problems, to the countries offering support to those nations that need it if they have to reduce their oil production, to the individuals becoming more conscious themselves and limiting their power consumption

Dude you haven't read all of it. I never said that. Second I did pose the questions of millions vs billions. And most people already know that it is a collective effort to solve this entire thing. I never bought into the whole "dark ecology" mindset, cause it will never work, not with 7 billion of us. I can easily put my consumption to a lower habit. It is a matter of simply unplugging my computer. But like I said not everyone thinks that way.

And yes people are tired of "corporations are evil" line. But only cause it is true. Canadian mining corporations are ruining Romania's cultural and natural heritage by using cyanide in their mining operations, which is controversial due to its polluting factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_cyanidation#Effects_on_the_environment). So tell me how they aren't evil. Sure it is a business and all that jazz, but that doesn't mean we can't criticize it.

some corporations destroy the environment, some donate millions to charity

lets just say living in my "socialist paradise" made me realize you cant just put a blanket on corporations, just like you cant put a blanket on pretty much anything else

when they do terrible and/or illegal shit, but all means their actions should be called out and judged, but i think its in the best interest of everyone that we all try to work together instead of pointing fingers and saying whose interests dont matter

Sure donations. Sure. Dude those donations are simply a tax write off, one of the many loopholes they use to pay their fair share.And if those donations actually did something, let us just say that Africa would be far better off. I am definitely judging corporations and pointing fingers. And where are you from? Norway? Because guess what, Norway set aside some money for rainy days. So no I don't think Norway is filled with idiots.

Also the rich and their interests DO NOT NEED DEFENDING.

you could just check my profile but alright

Venezuela, i had the government tell me for 15 years that corporations are evil and shit, they statized almost all the mayor industries ont he country and now, nothing works, theres a generalized shortage of everything, compalin about corporations all you want but atleast you can find basic need products, here you will have a hard time finding milk, coffe, toilet paper, flour, car batteries, natural gas, medicines, etc

and if it wasnt obvious enough every single statized business has become a cesspool of inefficiency and corruption where many workers literally belong to the mafia, they are criminals, killers

oh and the inflation is rapant, the highest in the entire world, the crime rates are also one of the highest

so no, i dont buy "all the corporations are evil" there are unscrupulous corporations for sure, and those should be help responsible for their actions, but many arent

and please do not fall into the "fuck the rich" attitude, we are all human beings and they have the right to have their needs being taken into account as well, the "fuck the rich" attitude was also heavily pushed by the government, and that severely divided the country, as many people began to consider middle class folks "rich people", the government was only interested in satisfying the needs of the poor, while never giving them any means to actually succeed, they are being kept poor and stupid by the goverment, the ministry of education literally said in national TV "the objective is not to make the poor middle class so they become part of the opposition"

Well that explains a lot now.But I do, cause I am from Romania. Guess why I left. Here let me tell what Romania was like in the communist regime: Food and home for everyone, a job for everyone (no unemployment, the police made sure of that), among the top ten exporters of arms (I really take perverse delight in that one for some reason), big fishing fleet, and NO DEBT (we got rid of that in the 1980s). The 1970s for Romania is practically modern-day Canada. Minus the newspapers. Seriously.

Now, unemployment rate of 6.2-7.0 % (in a population of 19.3 million and shrinking). Corruption up the wazoo. Economy in shambles. Fishing fleet gone. Weapons factories more or less gone, I have actually seen how they closed one. But hey now we are in the EU and getting shiny tractors yay (sarcasm if you haven't noted). I already mentioned the cultural and environmental devastation the Canadians are doing in the Carpati. But hey we are now free to starve. A majority and growing wants Nicolae Ceausescu back. That should tell you something.

Every country has its own issue is my point. But it has been proven time and time again that corporations are not benevolent. Going to the other extreme proves nothing, only that your country has its own issues that cannot be solved by going to either extreme. This is a different issue, at least your poor get something to not completely starve. Imagine if it was a company running the show in Venezuela. It would be a repeat of 1950s Cuba. Also there is a reason why Venezuela doesn't exactly like America ( I don't know and I don't care- maybe Cold War shenanigans?). So again I will not retract my "companies are evil" stance because it has been proven time and time again that they only care about their profits. That is all they care about.

Captcha: On the ball. Even captcha believes that we shouldn't drop it when it comes to companies.

its not my country so maybe i shouldnt comment but, wasnt romania a soviet puppet state and just like any communist country at the time had a severe problem with human rights?

im by no means saying communism cant work (tough the fact it has almost never worked is worth mentioning...) the point i wanted to bring to the table is that we shouldnt make blanket statements, and if we want everyone to cooperate, every voice must be heard

but id like to address a few extra points:

"Imagine if it was a company running the show in Venezuela. It would be a repeat of 1950s Cuba."

this happened, back in the day, when this country was actually worth a damn, Venezuela used to be one of the most developed countries in the region during the 20th century, to this day some of the biggest archivements of those past government remains, the 3rd biggest electric dam in the world, the biggest steel corporation in the region, nowadays they are in shambles thanks to mismanagement and corruption

"Also there is a reason why Venezuela doesn't exactly like America"

of course there is, propaganda, this government has repeated over and over again that "the Empire" invaded us, but do you want to know what was the only country that invaded us during the 20th century? Cuba

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machurucuto_Incident

they supported the communist guerillas that caused havoc in the country during the 60s, and the current leaders of Cuba are the same ones that supported these actions, the Castro brothers, and yet this government loves to act as if that never happened, filling the ranks of the army with Cubans

 

[Haerthan]

When science is held hostage to public opinion and politics, we harken back to a dark time in our history - a time of witch trials and geocentric worldviews. Years ago, one of my professors - an accomplished scientist - lamented the climate (ahem) in global warming research. The government's historical attitude toward the matter can be very roughly divided into the pre-Al Gore era of, "Blablabla we can't hear you," and the post-Inconvenient Truth era of, "Okay, we believe you; now fix it!" While the latter may seem like a victory, it was a pyrrhic one - in accepting that climate change was occurring, government funding shifted away from further investigating potential causes and toward finding solutions.

this sounds alarming, you got some more sources to confirm this is the trend right now?

Of course, there's a lot more at play in the global warming discussion - politics and capitalism, namely - which leads me to what I find saddest of all: that we need the threat of impending doom as a motivator to pollute less. Whether or not you believe that humanity is the leading cause of global warming, I think we can all agree that being kinder to our environment is in our best interest. But the myopic views of governments and corporations bent on holding power and money care too much for their immediate bottom-line to do the right, forward-thinking thing - they would rather invest in themselves than in humanity.

i understand what you are saying but heres the thing, life rarely has one correct answer for all your problems, you think as corporations as if they were made entirely of guys in suit holding a cigar in their hands and laughing maniacally each time a tree dies

there are many normals folks like you and me working at corporations and the moment you tell a corporation they must reduce their operations, those are the guys that are getting the boot, its hard to think about building a better world for your grandchildren when you cant even feed your kids right now

and then theres this other problem, many countries in the world, such as mine, depend on Oil exports to survive, Oil, if i recall correctly, represents 90% of our exports, is the one thing that has kept this show running for the last 80 years

now youd be right to assume my country is full of idiots who havent put any effort into doing something besides exporting oil, i wont deny that, but the fact remains, any hit to the oil market affects us and affect every country in a similar situation, is it right to sacrifice the livelihood of millions of people to save the planet? could you tell entire countries they have no right to prosper because the planet demands it?

the global warming issue isnt really that clear cut, its not the greed of old men whats destroying the world, but the desperate attempts to survive of millions of people

You really do NOT know how these corporations work do you? You think that the little guy, working at the gas station is going to be asked about losing his job? Or the rig workers over in the Canadian oilpatch in Alberta? No, all they get is a pink slip. Oil is down to 60 or so per barrel, meaning that in order to "keep their profits" the big suits will fire 1000 people. Suncor did this to 1000 Albertans. Yea they tried surviving, now they looking for jobs. So please do not come to me with "but corporations feed people". You are nothing but labour to them.

trust me i had enough talk about how EVIL corporations are for a lifetime

they are a business, plain and simple, they provide labor, im by no means defending them but im simply pointing out the implications of just wanting to wite them off the planet

Also let us see do we want millions to survive? or billions to die? If the patterns persists the way it does a lot of the coastal areas will be flooded. You can kiss good bye to New York, Venice, half of freaking Holland and the coastal areas of the world. Not to mention of the ecological devastation by continued drilling into the ocean (the Gulf disaster that BP had to deal with). The climate change affecting the crops' pattern. The fact that arable land is becoming scarcer with the continued change (Gobi desert is advancing south - http://www.earth-policy.org/plan_b_updates/2003/update26). We are killing ourselves. So you will please excuse if I see through your farcical "but the little guy has to survive". Not when the big boys try to stifle advancements in science and their greed kills the little guy anyways.

Also standard economics, diversify so that if one thing fails, it won't bring you down. Alberta is suffering cause of idiots relying on big oil.

so thats it, you are going to tell millions of people to fuck off? like i said the other guy, never ever expect the world to work together to solve this problem with this attitude, the moment you start talking about how only MY interests alone matter and YOU have to sort your problems out yourself, is the moment you lose a potential ally

if people are going to do something about climate change it has to be a collective effort, from the scientists isolating the definitive causes and possible solutions to the problems, to the countries offering support to those nations that need it if they have to reduce their oil production, to the individuals becoming more conscious themselves and limiting their power consumption

Dude you haven't read all of it. I never said that. Second I did pose the questions of millions vs billions. And most people already know that it is a collective effort to solve this entire thing. I never bought into the whole "dark ecology" mindset, cause it will never work, not with 7 billion of us. I can easily put my consumption to a lower habit. It is a matter of simply unplugging my computer. But like I said not everyone thinks that way.

And yes people are tired of "corporations are evil" line. But only cause it is true. Canadian mining corporations are ruining Romania's cultural and natural heritage by using cyanide in their mining operations, which is controversial due to its polluting factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_cyanidation#Effects_on_the_environment). So tell me how they aren't evil. Sure it is a business and all that jazz, but that doesn't mean we can't criticize it.

some corporations destroy the environment, some donate millions to charity

lets just say living in my "socialist paradise" made me realize you cant just put a blanket on corporations, just like you cant put a blanket on pretty much anything else

when they do terrible and/or illegal shit, but all means their actions should be called out and judged, but i think its in the best interest of everyone that we all try to work together instead of pointing fingers and saying whose interests dont matter

Sure donations. Sure. Dude those donations are simply a tax write off, one of the many loopholes they use to pay their fair share.And if those donations actually did something, let us just say that Africa would be far better off. I am definitely judging corporations and pointing fingers. And where are you from? Norway? Because guess what, Norway set aside some money for rainy days. So no I don't think Norway is filled with idiots.

Also the rich and their interests DO NOT NEED DEFENDING.

you could just check my profile but alright

Venezuela, i had the government tell me for 15 years that corporations are evil and shit, they statized almost all the mayor industries ont he country and now, nothing works, theres a generalized shortage of everything, compalin about corporations all you want but atleast you can find basic need products, here you will have a hard time finding milk, coffe, toilet paper, flour, car batteries, natural gas, medicines, etc

and if it wasnt obvious enough every single statized business has become a cesspool of inefficiency and corruption where many workers literally belong to the mafia, they are criminals, killers

oh and the inflation is rapant, the highest in the entire world, the crime rates are also one of the highest

so no, i dont buy "all the corporations are evil" there are unscrupulous corporations for sure, and those should be help responsible for their actions, but many arent

and please do not fall into the "fuck the rich" attitude, we are all human beings and they have the right to have their needs being taken into account as well, the "fuck the rich" attitude was also heavily pushed by the government, and that severely divided the country, as many people began to consider middle class folks "rich people", the government was only interested in satisfying the needs of the poor, while never giving them any means to actually succeed, they are being kept poor and stupid by the goverment, the ministry of education literally said in national TV "the objective is not to make the poor middle class so they become part of the opposition"

Well that explains a lot now.But I do, cause I am from Romania. Guess why I left. Here let me tell what Romania was like in the communist regime: Food and home for everyone, a job for everyone (no unemployment, the police made sure of that), among the top ten exporters of arms (I really take perverse delight in that one for some reason), big fishing fleet, and NO DEBT (we got rid of that in the 1980s). The 1970s for Romania is practically modern-day Canada. Minus the newspapers. Seriously.

Now, unemployment rate of 6.2-7.0 % (in a population of 19.3 million and shrinking). Corruption up the wazoo. Economy in shambles. Fishing fleet gone. Weapons factories more or less gone, I have actually seen how they closed one. But hey now we are in the EU and getting shiny tractors yay (sarcasm if you haven't noted). I already mentioned the cultural and environmental devastation the Canadians are doing in the Carpati. But hey we are now free to starve. A majority and growing wants Nicolae Ceausescu back. That should tell you something.

Every country has its own issue is my point. But it has been proven time and time again that corporations are not benevolent. Going to the other extreme proves nothing, only that your country has its own issues that cannot be solved by going to either extreme. This is a different issue, at least your poor get something to not completely starve. Imagine if it was a company running the show in Venezuela. It would be a repeat of 1950s Cuba. Also there is a reason why Venezuela doesn't exactly like America ( I don't know and I don't care- maybe Cold War shenanigans?). So again I will not retract my "companies are evil" stance because it has been proven time and time again that they only care about their profits. That is all they care about.

Captcha: On the ball. Even captcha believes that we shouldn't drop it when it comes to companies.

its not my country so maybe i shouldnt comment but, wasnt romania a soviet puppet state and just like any communist country at the time had a severe problem with human rights?

im by no means saying communism cant work (tough the fact it has almost never worked is worth mentioning...) the point i wanted to bring to the table is that we shouldnt make blanket statements, and if we want everyone to cooperate, every voice must be heard

but id like to address a few extra points:

"Imagine if it was a company running the show in Venezuela. It would be a repeat of 1950s Cuba."

this happened, back in the day, when this country was actually worth a damn, Venezuela used to be one of the most developed countries in the region during the 20th century, to this day some of the biggest archivements of those past government remains, the 3rd biggest electric dam in the world, the biggest steel corporation in the region, nowadays they are in shambles thanks to mismanagement and corruption

"Also there is a reason why Venezuela doesn't exactly like America"

of course there is, propaganda, this government has repeated over and over again that "the Empire" invaded us, but do you want to know what was the only country that invaded us during the 20th century? Cuba

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machurucuto_Incident

they supported the communist guerillas that caused havoc in the country during the 60s, and the current leaders of Cuba are the same ones that supported these actions, the Castro brothers, and yet this government loves to act as if that never happened, filling the ranks of the army with Cubans

Soviet puppet state? Not really. Not after Ceausescu came to power. The Russians really hated Ceausescu, cause he was first a nationalist and then a Communist. But I do not want to argue Romanian history with a non-Romanian, it will just get me angry.

So you have only 1 example of a good capitalist system where the country didn't suffer. I have far more negative examples: Romania's economy, The Fukushima-Daichi power plant having a small counter for tsunamis, courtesy of TEPCO, the corruption of the Batista government in Cuba in the 1950s, the taking away of the manufacturing base from the West to China for profits since 1990s, the spill in the Gulf of Mexico in 2010 by BP. The economic downturn caused by the American banks and subsequent recession in 2008. And I am not even going to get into the shit they pulled during the 19th century and early 20th century, before laws forced them to offer proper pay and compensation. History clearly shows that companies are at best neutral, willing to offer the least in name of maximum profit. Companies need to be regulated heavily. Everybody with some knowledge of economic history knows that.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

snip

look we are getting sidetracked, this isnt a discussion of political systems, is painfully obvious we have our own stances

my point was, if we want people to work together, we must make sure none of them gets totally screwed over, it doesnt matter if you want corporations dead or not, if we want to reduce human pollution and its effects on global warning, we must work together, think of it as, when the east and west worked together to erradicate smallpox, it didnt matter if the country infected was capitalist or communist, both parties worked together to get rid of the disease, and everyone had a great time

lets try to do just that

 

[Haerthan]

snip

look we are getting sidetracked, this isnt a discussion of political systems, is painfully obvious we have our own stances

my point was, if we want people to work together, we must make sure none of them gets totally screwed over, it doesnt matter if you want corporations dead or not, if we want to reduce human pollution and its effects on global warning, we must work together, think of it as, when the east and west worked together to erradicate smallpox, it didnt matter if the country infected was capitalist or communist, both parties worked together to get rid of the disease, and everyone had a great time

lets try to do just that

Fair enough. I still believe that working together is a pipe dream though. Human greed is far too strong a force for us to get together and work on this specific issue. The eradication of smallpox was a lucky thing, a thing we won't ever see happen in our lifetimes.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

snip

look we are getting sidetracked, this isnt a discussion of political systems, is painfully obvious we have our own stances

my point was, if we want people to work together, we must make sure none of them gets totally screwed over, it doesnt matter if you want corporations dead or not, if we want to reduce human pollution and its effects on global warning, we must work together, think of it as, when the east and west worked together to erradicate smallpox, it didnt matter if the country infected was capitalist or communist, both parties worked together to get rid of the disease, and everyone had a great time

lets try to do just that

Fair enough. I still believe that working together is a pipe dream though. Human greed is far too strong a force for us to get together and work on this specific issue. The eradication of smallpox was a lucky thing, a thing we won't ever see happen in our lifetimes.

unlikely

we wouldnt have gotten this far as a species ignoring the benefits of jolly cooperation, thats why we stopped using CFCs once we discovered that shit was eating out our ozone layer

but there are still some issues to be resolved about climate change, some people are still not convinced of how much are humans to blame, and to be fair, climate change has happened before without humans intervening, and it was slowing down for no reason recently, now it seems this was thanks to volcanic activity

im all in for more research to be done, we should start by taking some meansures to reduce pollution because climate change or not thats generally a shit thing, and we save the most drastic meansures for when we have more data, tough im aware time is an important resourse and we shouldnt waste it