"The series doesn't do anything new"

[stevenrkorea]

I think it's time to call for an end of the "it doesn't do anything new" argument against video game sequels. To me, it just doesn't make any sense to not like a sequel because it's very similar to the original. It's like game reviewers have some sort of obsession with re-inventing the wheel. But why?

It dawned on me when I was playing God of War 2 the other day (though it could have been any sequel that's good). From what I remembered from God of War 1, God of War 2 is pretty much the same game. Sure there were some graphical updates and some minor game play tweaks, but overall, you're still Kratos, you're still using blades on chains, you're still angry, and you're still killing everything that moves. But that's a really good thing because I thought that God of War 1 was great, and thus God of War 2 was great. And if I had bought God of War 2 and it hadn't been like God of War 1, I would have been really disappointed. In fact, that would have been border-line bait and switch.

It got me to further thinking; do game critics watch movie sequels and criticize them for "not doing anything new"? Would they criticize Return of the Jedi for blowing up a Death Star at the end just like in A New Hope? Maybe criticize using more than one scene where the heroes were pinned down from laser fire while trying desperately to open a door to escape? Or then to only slightly modify the scene and put the heroes under a Tie Fighter attack while they desperately try to jump to hyper-space to escape? What about movies like the Godfather, or Clint Eastwood spaghetti westerns?

Anyways, I think that if a game is awesome, make a sequel and keep it the same! Sure, make a few graphical updates, tweak a game play issues, but overall, I want the same thing as before. God of War 3 is coming out sometime this year and it better be just like God of War 1 and 2. I want to be Kratos, I want the blades on the chains, I want to murder everything I see. Yes, I even want the quick time events for flying through the air and stabbing huge monsters in the eyes.

I know that some people will want to bring up Dynasty Warriors, but here's the thing about that series. If you like Dynasty Warriors, you have probably been a pretty happy camper for the past 10 or so years with the games they have been pumping out. If you don't like Dynasty Warriors, then you don't like the series. But what would be the point of changing the series and turning their backs on the fans of the game, just to appease people who are not fans of the game? That one just doesn't make sense to me.

Am I missing something here? Is it really necessary to 'move a series forward' or to do new things with sequels? Or should they just be kept the same?

 

[SimpleReally]

I think you picked a really bad game example since God of War was so universally acclaimed.
God of War 2 kept the winning formula while tweaking the little bits that needed improving, they increased the number of boss fights, they improved the spells that were ineffective, they made pushing crates and climbing walls smoother etc.. small changes but they were changes in the things that got criticized.

If i see a decent game with good bits and bad bits get a sequel that doesn't try to fix the bad, i have a right to get upset, it means they weren't trying to improve the product

 

[captain awesome 12]

You make a good point, the whole reason for a sequel is that you liked the first game so you want to play another one. Of course the sequel must live up to the original, and must fix any problems, and should bring some new gameplay that improves the formula. However I didn't think sequels were made for an entirely different game experience, then they wouldn't be sequels.

 

[DeusFps]

Would the hl eps be as good if they didn't bring something new to the series? I think not.

 

[Avatar Roku]

Would the hl eps be as good if they didn't bring something new to the series? I think not.

True. A similar way of looking at it is, considering the difference of 6 years, would HL2 have been as good if it was just a graphical update of the original? Of course not, it had to change with the times.

 

[geldonyetich]

If you're telling me we should stop complaining about lack of originality in games, I'm going to respond by throwing my hands up in despair and saying this art is, at last, truly dead.

 

[coldfrog]

I think that it all depends on what else they do in the game that makes the difference in a good sequel or a so-so one. For instance, if the sequel upgrades dramatically graphic-wise but keeps pretty much the same gameplay, this could be a big draw (One of the reasons BioShock was quite sensational to me). Or, if the game depends on an epic storyline with a unique plot and worthwhile characters, making new characters within this story and having another well-written, engaging plot can also work (again, BioShock works here, as well as the Xenosaga series, which had a bizarre anime-style plot), and also if the levels are well enough designed it will be worth it to see what kind of world the creators have set you in. (The Half-Life Episodes and Metroid Prime 2 do this for me).

However, sometimes a game will just keep it too much the same and fail to do much more. Despite the well-design wiimote aiming system, Metroid Prime 3 falls in this category for me, because although they had the same core gameplay, the things they added were fairly uninteresting, and for the first time I was disappointed in the world that was created for me. Heck, if it wasn't for a couple of hooks in Half Life Ep. 2, I probably would have felt similar about that game.

Also, another type of game overall that can keep the exact same gameplay is the adventure game genre. The entire point of those types of games is to have clever puzzles, engaging or amusing dialogue, and frequently an interesting story. Look at the Sam and Max games, or the Monkey Island games, or really any of those types of games. In fact, they use the same core over several different named games and it still never gets old because they're so good at crafting interesting stories and fun characters (Murray!).

It generally depends on what type of game it is. FPS's tend to need some exciting addition or the game will stagnate, while adventure games can pull from the same thing over and over and never get old. Even then, though, it still all depends on the situation.

Actually, looking back at Xenosaga, episode 2 had a pretty different style of game play, didn't it? It's been quite a while and I don't even own the games anymore because I knew I'd never actually play them again (way too much time to put into them).

 

[Hunde Des Krieg]

If you're telling me we should stop complaining about lack of originality in games, I'm going to respond by throwing my hands up in despair and saying this art is, at last, truly dead.

And the others aren't?
Maybe literature still has more to offer, but that's about it.

 

[geldonyetich]

If you're telling me we should stop complaining about lack of originality in games, I'm going to respond by throwing my hands up in despair and saying this art is, at last, truly dead.

And the others aren't?
Maybe literature still has more to offer, but that's about it.

I, for one, do not condone murder simply on the grounds that it's common.

 

[ChromeAlchemist]

They say 'if it aint broke don't fix it', but depending on the game changes have to be made, as it has been done so many times, just to keep it fresh. It's basically what happened on halo, once the third one came out, it was the same game but everyone expected it to be similar with enough tweaks and new content to warrant a purchase. It appears it wasn't as many bashed the game for being the same and shorter.

But I agree completely with what you said in general with the statement.

 

[Hunde Des Krieg]

If you're telling me we should stop complaining about lack of originality in games, I'm going to respond by throwing my hands up in despair and saying this art is, at last, truly dead.

And the others aren't?
Maybe literature still has more to offer, but that's about it.

I, for one, do not condone murder simply on the grounds that it's common.

No what you have to do is stop with the absurd demands you have for games at this point, they can't all do something new all the time. Especially when it doesn't pay for them to do so. This is capitalism, they(game devs) make games to make money, some make games because they want to do something new and interesting or with a bizarre story and concepts, these games rarely sell. (see pyschonauts). Games are for the most part a commercial venture, which is why the big hulking monstrosities that are the major publishers do so well, they make games designed to sell. Games that are truly "art" Okami, Shadow of the collosus, Ico, LOZ wind waker, and a fair few more, don't usually do very well, because they don't appeal to a large audience, therefore Devs aren't inclined to make more. Then you also take into account specific markets, N America, Europe, Japan, or Kids, adults, teens, and so on. To most kids, the art games can be quite enjoyable but the impact is lost, to adults and teens the interest may not be there at all.
So either stop bitching or become a famous game developer and change it yourself.

 

[Shurikens and Lightning]

Imagine if you read a great book, A sequel came out and it had the exact same plot but with a couple of new and fancier words placed in and maybe a new paragraph here and there. Is it good? of coarse! it just feels like de ja vu. They arent trying to re-invent the wheel just make it feel like you arent using the same wheel again.

 

[geldonyetich]

Let me get this straight:

I, for one, do not condone murder simply on the grounds that it's common.

No what you have to do is stop with the absurd demands you have for games at this point, they can't all do something new all the time.

Why not? Because they're uncreative, talentless hacks? Well, pardon my lack of sympathy for being bad at what they do.

Especially when it doesn't pay for them to do so.

I pay them with every game they make, and won't buy clones. Granted, other people might buy clones, so some good that does me.

This is capitalism, they(game devs) make games to make money, some make games because they want to do something new and interesting or with a bizarre story and concepts, these games rarely sell. (see pyschonauts).

So, whatever somebody can make money doing is the right thing to do?

Good news, organized crime, Hunde Des Krieg says you're off the hook.

Or am I a filthy communist to want to do what's right instead of what's profitable?

Games are for the most part a commercial venture, which is why the big hulking monstrosities that are the major publishers do so well, they make games designed to sell. Games that are truly "art" Okami, Shadow of the collosus, Ico, LOZ wind waker, and a fair few more, don't usually do very well, because they don't appeal to a large audience, therefore Devs aren't inclined to make more.

You think you're stating the answer. You're actually stating the problem.

Then you also take into account specific markets, N America, Europe, Japan, or Kids, adults, teens, and so on. To most kids, the art games can be quite enjoyable but the impact is lost, to adults and teens the interest may not be there at all.

Art has genres. I'm not complaining about that.

So either stop bitching or become a famous game developer and change it yourself.

I'm working on it. It's a pity I've allowed myself to be distracted with forums. It seems I've a famous developer's ego, at least.

 

[Hunde Des Krieg]

Let me get this straight:

I, for one, do not condone murder simply on the grounds that it's common.

No what you have to do is stop with the absurd demands you have for games at this point, they can't all do something new all the time.

Why not? Because they're uncreative, talentless hacks? Well, pardon my lack of sympathy for being bad at what they do.

Especially when it doesn't pay for them to do so.

I pay them with every game they make, and won't buy clones. Granted, other people might buy clones, so some good that does me.

This is capitalism, they(game devs) make games to make money, some make games because they want to do something new and interesting or with a bizarre story and concepts, these games rarely sell. (see pyschonauts).

So, whatever somebody can make money doing is the right thing to do?

Good news, organized crime, Hunde Des Krieg says you're off the hook.

Or am I a filthy communist to want to do what's right instead of what's profitable?

Games are for the most part a commercial venture, which is why the big hulking monstrosities that are the major publishers do so well, they make games designed to sell. Games that are truly "art" Okami, Shadow of the collosus, Ico, LOZ wind waker, and a fair few more, don't usually do very well, because they don't appeal to a large audience, therefore Devs aren't inclined to make more.

You think you're stating the answer. You're actually stating the problem.

Then you also take into account specific markets, N America, Europe, Japan, or Kids, adults, teens, and so on. To most kids, the art games can be quite enjoyable but the impact is lost, to adults and teens the interest may not be there at all.

Art has genres. I'm not complaining about that.

So either stop bitching or become a famous game developer and change it yourself.

I'm working on it. It's a pity I've allowed myself to be distracted with forums. It seems I've a famous developer's ego, at least.

I NEVER SAID I AGREED WITH IT YOU FUCKING TROLL! I AM STATING REALITY! THERE ARE TWO OPTIONS, TRY TO LIVE WITH IT OR TRY TO CHANGE IT! Don't paint me as the bad guy because I can state the obvious you self righteous prick.

 

[geldonyetich]

I NEVER SAID I AGREED WITH IT YOU FUCKING TROLL! I AM STATING REALITY! THERE ARE TWO OPTIONS, TRY TO LIVE WITH IT OR TRY TO CHANGE IT! Don't paint me as the bad guy because I can state the obvious you self righteous prick.

As I've never indicated anything other on this thread than a desire to change it, can you understand why your choice to bring this up was so contemptible?

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

 

[Hunde Des Krieg]

I NEVER SAID I AGREED WITH IT YOU FUCKING TROLL! I AM STATING REALITY! THERE ARE TWO OPTIONS, TRY TO LIVE WITH IT OR TRY TO CHANGE IT! Don't paint me as the bad guy because I can state the obvious you self righteous prick.

As I've never indicated anything other on this thread than a desire to change it, can you understand why your choice to bring this up was so contemptible?

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Yes go ahead, ride your high horse into the sunset.

 

[geldonyetich]

Yes go ahead, ride your high horse into the sunset.

I'm riding the high horse? Really?

You, the fellow who came in here and started demanding that my suggesting the killing of an art was wrong because reality says it's right?

You, who came in here and told me my options are two, no more, no less, and I must accept them?

You, who called me a troll simply for breaking down what you said into its base meaning?

No, my friend, I might write as an egotist (it's an INTJ thing [http://www.xanga.com/Shyxlilfox/677575789/intj---mastermindfree-thinker/], apparently) but clearly you're ignorant of the acts your own demanding ego drives you to.

We probably would have gotten off on a better foot were I not completely aware of why mediocre games were so common before you decided to painstakingly explain it to me. Naturally, this would come off as you telling me to shut up and deal. The way you worded many of your replies certainly did not shake that impression.

Not to detail the thread too badly, my point is only this: it's a slippery slope when we're asked to forgive bad art. Once we have done that, don't be surprised if the only art you can buy is supreme mediocrity. So, no, I will not stop saying that series need to at least try do new things. Yes, I might be a famous game designer one day, if I get my ass in gear.

 

[Hunde Des Krieg]

Yes go ahead, ride your high horse into the sunset.

I'm riding the high horse? Really?

You, the fellow who came in here and started demanding that my suggesting the killing of an art was wrong because reality says it's right?

You, who came in here and told me my options are two, no more, no less, and I must accept them?

You, who called me a troll simply for breaking down what you said into its base meaning?

No, my friend, I might write as an egotist (it's an INTJ thing [http://www.xanga.com/Shyxlilfox/677575789/intj---mastermindfree-thinker/], apparently) but clearly you're ignorant of the acts your own demanding ego drives you to.

Fine you win. Happy? I hope so. You get to be the hero in your little war to save creativity and free thought.
But yeah you're right, I do have an ego. I obey its demands, just like everyone else. But I am not trying to condone the raping of an artform, I am trying to break down why it is being raped. Because when you understand something, you can defeat it.
I love the "arty" games. I find them far more entertaining than the cut and paste crap that comes out every month, but like I said earlier, you can't expect innovation all the time, devs just can't do it. They have to appease their fans in order to even stay open and making games at all. So with this I leave you, I will not respond anymore, this argument is now come full circle.

 

[Erana]

Well, for some reason, if something is an, "Expansion" then its OK to be a continuation of the previous game.
I don't see why people always expect new features 'n such- if its just as clever in level design, and you enjoyed the first game, then what's wrong with it before?

 

[stevenrkorea]

If you're telling me we should stop complaining about lack of originality in games, I'm going to respond by throwing my hands up in despair and saying this art is, at last, truly dead.

I didn't quite mean to stop complaining about a lack of originality. I like the idea of new games being made and I can enjoy originality in them. I'm saying that if you play a game called God of War 2, it's not a legitimate complaint to say that it's too much like God of War 1. Even if you are playing God of War 27, you still shouldn't complain that it's too much like God of War 26.

With regards to calling the art dead for lack of originality, I just don't see it. Using a paralleling comparison to paintings. When I see a painting by Van Gogh, I immediately recognize it as a Van Gogh even if I have never seen it before due to his unique style. However, I do not complain that Van Gogh has again used similar colors, brush strokes, and angles as he did in his other paintings. His style is what I've come to expect from him and I would be disappointed if he suddenly changed it. The same with video games. Let the Van Goghs make their Van Goghs and let the Picassos create their Picassos, I say.