The Skyrim/Dragon Age Baby
- Thread starter Susan Arendt
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Susan that was a good one, see for a moment I was actually convinced for a second that you were serious. But then I realized that would be positivly ridiculous, because nobody in their right mind would ever, under any circumstances, for any amount of money, suggest that Dragon Age 2 had good characters. I mean yeah in Skyrim and... okay yeah every TES ever they tend to be little more than Cardboard cut outs, but inoffensive carboard cut outs.
It was a good joke, but I can help you there, Throw in how it could definitly use Sonic 06's QA testing and plotting. That would push it over the line into a side splitter.
Seriously though, DA2, of all fucking things, how ridiculous. Not Planescape: Torment because lord knows we can't talk about OLD games. Hell you could have suggested FFXIII and THAT would have been less offensive than suggesting DA2. And for the record, I hate that piece of shit.
Painfully true. Anders went from a lovable scamp in Awakening to a completely different, unrelated character who happened to look similar.Candidus said:
Let's keep Bioware's most disappointing game out of Skyrim's awesomeness, thanks. I know Escapist gave that turd a 5/5 and has to maintain the pretense that it's a good game... but it's not.
The only thing Skyrim should have a baby with is Fallout: New Vegas. Skyrim had a thoroughly linear plot that took your mind off that fact by throwing tons of sidequests at you. They even broke the cardinal rule of not letting you report NPCs asking you to do quests your character may be ethically opposed to. The just sit in your quest log until you decide to take matters into your own hands and murder them (can't even do that with the Thieve's Guild quest.)
DA2 had a messy, convoluted plot that made some semblance of sense if following the templar support line, and just strained and convoluted the crap out of itself trying to explain why other quest lines led to the same conclusions. Hell, it was so linear that the developers resorted to retconning DAO decisions. NOTHING was likeable in DA2.
All Skyrim needs is more Fallout: NV style quest branches, and more Mjoll the Lioness type characters, she may not be more colorful than DA characters, but at least she doesn't drive me into a murderous rage with really poor writing induced decisions.
Edit:
DA2 had a messy, convoluted plot that made some semblance of sense if following the templar support line, and just strained and convoluted the crap out of itself trying to explain why other quest lines led to the same conclusions. Hell, it was so linear that the developers resorted to retconning DAO decisions. NOTHING was likeable in DA2.
All Skyrim needs is more Fallout: NV style quest branches, and more Mjoll the Lioness type characters, she may not be more colorful than DA characters, but at least she doesn't drive me into a murderous rage with really poor writing induced decisions.
Edit:
This x 9000Pandabearparade said:
I'm not sure it's entirely fair to but Morrowind in this discussion. For its time I thought it did a pretty good job with characterization and I still have a ton of favorites I can name off the top of my head. I mean come on, your primary main quest support character for half the game is a half-naked old monk who smoke moon sugar out of a crack pipe all day and wants you to figure out if you are in fact the reincarnation of some general he read about in a book once or some shit. Who knows, those ashlanders are weirdos. God I loved Caius Cosades.
I have said this EXACT same thing to many people. I love Bioware for the great stories they tell and wonderful characters they bring to life and I can't deny the beauty of Oblivion and Skyrim. For me I find the story more important than the surroundings which is why I couldn't stand Oblivion and why I won't be playing Skyrim. But this crossover ... Skyage or Dragon Rim whatever ... is the game that awaits me in heaven!
To be completely fair, the combat in Dragon Age 2 was perfectly serviceable. I might even say it's good if I could see it in a better designed game.Amaror said:
That said, every single fight in DA2 was an utter chore and unbelievably stupid. This wasn't the fault of the combat mechanics though. That was the fault of the encounter design. They replaced DA:O's set number of enemy mobs of varying difficulty with wave after wave after wave of mooks. And the worst part is that these waves spawned while you were fighting. Such a design completely removes any semblance of tactics and makes the only effective strategy "clump everyone up and AOE the shit out of everything".
The rest of the gameplay in DA2 (almost total lack of inventory, friendship/rivalry bar, etc) ranged from mediocre to utterly worthless, I'll agree on that, but the combat mechanics were not bad. The story was also utter shit, but I'm not gonna get into that.
I disagree heavily. Anders is not trying to control it, he agrees with Justice at his core even if sometimes he feels uncomfortable. The Anders I understood was an intelligent version of the chaotic good character, where we see that the rules might not matter in the face of Justice.Candidus said:
Fenris I didn't use, but to claim that a character that mopes about an actual problem like slavery is tween emo fodder seems ridiculous. There is a difference between someone whining that no one understands them and someone who has gone through traumatic stuff. What would be legitimate to "whine about" if not slavery???
Merril is a little generic except that she doesn't have to lose to the power. Characters who say that they can handle the Dark and Forbidden are technically not supposed to be able to do it by the end of the story. The fact that she can use it and get really goddamn powerful makes you reconsider the ban on blood magic in the same way as Morrigan as those made by weak and fearful creatures. However, her personality contrast to Morrigan makes her even more interesting because she assumes she can use the power for good, not just neutral personal success (as Morrigan does).
The Dwarf's name is Varric and if you can't remember the character that narrates the story you've got a problem. His personality is shown at the beginning and at the ends.
Isabella was awesome! I romanced her and told her I loved her. She threw it in my face and betrayed me. Awsome!
Yes, Sebastian is boring and I have nothing good to say about him. Worse, he came in a DLC.
You're also forgetting Aveline and your brother or sister. I liked Aveline because her comments showed that she was constantly out of her depth. She is a simple person that wants to reduce good and bad into simple rules. She is the lawful good character, and I am glad they played it as simple rather than over-righteousness (which is the cliche).
In what games did you like the characters?
I would love that, but I'd also hate it. The last game I played that actually made me attached to the characters (which was Dragon Age 2, coincidently), made me so sad to see it end. It was like ripping an emotional band aid off slowly. Same with the main turning point of Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood quest line, the sanctuary murders. I was attached to the brotherhood, however it was the right amount of attachment that I could still carry out the order.
DA2 is meny things, fundamentally flawed (all the free marches you idiots, not one of the cities) broken in some respects? (that's wave one killed and here is wave 2!) I'll grant you that, but mechanically? good solid combat, no 500 skills you might use once if your really set on using everything, skill trees with choices that are clear and have tangible effects.
My god I wish Skyrim was more like that. there are maybe three of the shouts worth using, the combat is stilted to the point of being nearly dead (why yes I would like to swing my sword in the same minuet that I use a shout, oh how kind only a 30 second wait) they both need to stop reusing indoor environments, DA2 being far worse on this count with out a doubt, but Skyrim's selection of 3 different dungeons isn't much better some times (Would that be cave, Nordic tomb or dwarven ruin you would like this time sir?)
So yes, a larger, more complete worlds with characters please. Even if you end up not liking them at least they existed, you engaged with them. Obsidian showed us a preview with Fallout: New Vegas, now we just need Id doing the back end so it doesn't crash every 5 seconds.
My god I wish Skyrim was more like that. there are maybe three of the shouts worth using, the combat is stilted to the point of being nearly dead (why yes I would like to swing my sword in the same minuet that I use a shout, oh how kind only a 30 second wait) they both need to stop reusing indoor environments, DA2 being far worse on this count with out a doubt, but Skyrim's selection of 3 different dungeons isn't much better some times (Would that be cave, Nordic tomb or dwarven ruin you would like this time sir?)
So yes, a larger, more complete worlds with characters please. Even if you end up not liking them at least they existed, you engaged with them. Obsidian showed us a preview with Fallout: New Vegas, now we just need Id doing the back end so it doesn't crash every 5 seconds.
I'm sorry but you are wrong.maxben said:
Anders in Dragon Age: Awakening encounters a mage spouting about how the Circle has to be destroyed and the mages freed, and he is disgusted, telling the warden that, while he doesn't agree with how tight the circle is run, he still thinks it's much better than Mages being stoned to death, attracting demons and having no way to control their power.
He has done a COMPLETE fucking 180 in terms of personality, actions, beliefs, and character in general. You can say "Oh but he's merged with Justice now" and I can respond "GREAT! so you fucked up two characters, congratulations"
Fenris is an insufferable JRPG character lost in a WRPG. I'm sorry but the brooding white haired elf (who's Eyebrows don't match by the way) with his lyrium tattoos and his "YOU WOULD NEVER UNDERSTAND MY DARK PAST", wielding a 2-hander bigger than he is, made fucking Cloud Strife Circa ADVENT CHILDREN look Well adjusted and happy.
Merill is retarded. I don't mean that as her character is retarded, I mean she is LITERALLY fucked in the head, Bioware tried to capitalize on Tali and make a 'Moe' Character for Dragon Age, what we got was a complete fucking idiot, who's every line of dialogue grated on my fucking nerves as she "Giggle how cute am I" with all her dialogue, and I was HAPPY to put her out of her misery. then again I killed almost all my party so maybe I'm just a monster. Or maybe they shouldn't be so terrible. And she is NOTHIGN like Morrigan. MORRIGAN looked down on Blood Magic and making deals with demons, she knew better because Flemeth taught her better, Merill is supposed to be the fucking FIRST to the Keeper and she's making retarded mistakes that every mage ever is told not to make.
Oh but if there was ever a message for "Mages are fucking horrible and need to be locked up" it was DA2, the only non-blood mages in the game are Bethany and Anders and the latter is a Terrorist. Oh wait there was the Saarebas, but they're qunari and they know better.
As for your family, Douchebag annoying brother who did nothing to endear himself until Legacy came along OR complete bland flat sister. I can see the siblings just OOZE personality.
Aveline and Varric... eh they were fine.
What about Isabela?
What ABOUT Isabela? Her personality is "How many people have I fucking slept with" and "I love freedom, innuendo, innuendo" what was I supposed to take from that, that the character I knew for all of 5 minutes in Origins, was now a party member? Big Whoop.
Want party members I DO like in various games? Sten, Jolee Bindo, Sanger Zonvolt, Bart, Pretty much everyone from Nier, Everyone in Planescape: Torment, a lot of characters who don't serve to go out of their way to fucking ANNOY ME.
Now lets get one thing clear, you can like these characters, I can not ever tell you that the emotions you felt with them were wrong. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it.
But they are badly written characters, this is a fact. This is non-negotiable, They are the shallowest, most painful characters I ever had to put up with.
There was a single time in DA:O where I didn't have the dialogue option I wanted, I wanted to explain my values of strength and freedom to Morrigan, because she had her own opinions and there was never a chance. Don't say "That's unreasonable" because Planescape did it and it's old as hell.
In DA2 there was NEVER a moment I didn't wish for different dialogue options. The game was trash, It literally had 2 characters who weren't complete shit, and the only 'Gameplay' improvements was giving more than 4 straight lines for 'Skill Trees' and making the combat faster. It's a pity the combat became complete shit however, not to mention the graphics being eye raping terrible, the soundtrack being even MORE non-existant than the one in Dragon Age: Origins, The story being a terribly plotted convoluted mess of contrivance and bullshit, the COMPLETE lack of effort resource wise, and the most painful dialogue ever concieved by man, containing more of the same 'Joss Whedon' funny, except even HE manages to be legit witty sometimes, DA2 can't even aspire to that.
It is an abortion, a scar upon the world, it's not just god awful, it's boring. The cardinal sin of video games.
Susan, just out of curiousity - whom did you romance in DA2 and what would be your reaction if Bioware had pulled a Garrus on Varric (that is making your ultimate bro a romance option)?Susan Arendt said:
I think I love you. You pretty much read my mind.SpaceMedarotterX said:
BTW, the reason for Anders's character derailment is the fact that he was written by David Gaider in DAO:A and by some yaoi fanfiction writer in DA2 (who also wrote Merril I think), who for some bizzare reason got a job in Bioware (forgotten her name - Jennifer something).
Also - how DO you kill Merril?! I wanted to do this ever since she opend he mouth. I wanted to give her away to her clan for execution in Act3 but for some reason the option was never there -_-
Edit: K, my mistake the abomination that is Merril was written by Mary Kirby. I guess she had a fever or something when she was doing that.
So...bland, empty, repetitive environments of Skyrim(a game relying almost solely on Skinners Box techniques) combined with bland, boring characters of Dragon Age 2: A Boring Game. No thank you.
)
I'm sorry, but that's an extremely generous view of DA2's characters you have there.maxben said:
Anders was only in agreement with Vengeance (it isn't justice any more) when Anders was in control, but lived in terror of the fact that Vengeance could surface at any time. This sounds like a fair start, but the way it was written (like a bad DA fanfiction, thanks Helper), Vengeance was basically Edward Cullen's vampirism "curse". It was a plot device that allowed Hamburger to write him just like Edward, which is something she really wanted to do. (She's just a human being, and not a particularly bright or talented one. Her motives don't have to be complex and they likely aren't. I suspect that I'm spot on.)
"I love you, but I'll hurt you, I can't control it, but I love you, but!" Again and again and again. Play the game, romance him, you'll see it plain as day.
Now, even this awfulness she could have achieved without completely losing Anders' original personality, but it's gone! Anders in DA2 is someone else, plain and simple.
It's fine to want to imitate a character from a story you love- even if that character is from a story that is most assuredly a crime against literature itself, like Twilight. Just don't bring it in to your employer's unrelated intellectual property! Fuck. Bad fanfiction belongs on fanfiction.net.
As for Fenris, if you're able to take him seriously through all the obvious target-marketing he's clad in, then you're able to disregard something that constitutes about 50% of him much more efficiently than I. If you've been a victim of slavery, do you smoulder coolly and talk in a silky/stern by turns voice that goes beautifully with your floppy silver hair? Maybe you do. But *if* you do, you're going to have to make peace with the fact that to many of us, you'll come across as a complete joke. The sword-as-big-as-him with skinny arms and magical girl 'power line' tattoos didn't help either.
Varric, that's the dwarf's name! Yeah, I didn't mind him, and as I say I even took him about with me. Memorable though? ... I'll concede this. If he had been a character in a game that didn't drain my soul and will to live straight out through my eyes, I'd probably have put him up on a pedastal. I'd certainly have remembered his name.
Isabella doesn't need revisiting.
Ah yeah, Aveline. Didn't strike a chord with me. Serviceable character. Plays her role, leaves Anders Cullen and Fenris in the dirt. Isn't as good as Varric or Isabella. Multifaceted, deep, and bland-- but that's okay! Bland people are realistic. Somebody has to be. 5 out of 10!
Merril. "Blood Magic is Power at a Price". That's what DA1 taught us. Merril's DA2 arc is that exact same moral told at great, unnecessary length. There's no suspense, no question as to where it's leading. Everything you said to me in your response is visible at a glance, the moment she cuts her hand and uses the power. They did nothing surprising with it. I had to sleep walk through it...
And that really sets the tone for the whole game. Random encounters were too common in the city and took a long time on the higher difficulties. They became a chore, and they gradually made me sick of the undoubtedly splendid combat system. The characters were rubbish, the graphics were rubbish (compared to DA1), the overall story however was alright (people putting Anders' behavior in the context of terrorism was depressing, and reflected more poorly on the people in question than it did the tale).
In my view, the game was a victim of Bioware's junior writers. As a standalone B-game effort, sold at a B-game price and set in its own world, it would have been sensational. Instead, it was a huge step down and an immense disappointment.
Jeniffer "Hamburger Helper" Hepler. Whenever somebody says 'Hamburger' in a discussion about Bioware games, they're talking about Jeniffer. Hells, the studio would be so much better off if all she really did was fetch the fast food and make the coffee...purifico said:
Never anything for the cat person.Susan Arendt said:
It is my mission to ensure that a kitty cat mod is prepared for skyrim.
My demands:
1. Kittens are collected and deposited in your homes.
2. You must feed them various animal parts.
3. They pounce on and batter around any small objects.
4. They multiply rapidly.