The slut issue

Paradoxrifts

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Mortai Gravesend said:
You're arguing that the means justifies the ends which is all well and good in theory, but the harsh reality of life is that it is the opposite that is most often true. It is the ends justifies the means, you might not like it and I certainly don't but that is largely how the world functions. Also, you can't simply just switch between starry-eyed idealism and cynical-minded practicalities whenever it suits your argument as it betrays a lack of consistency.

I do not wish to control women's bodies, but when you claim to be for equality you've got to actually campaign for equality and not just equality when it suits your purposes to campaign for it. What I wish to do instead is to control my own body, without the threat of what largely amounts to state-sponsored extortion, wherein a good-sized portion of my economic output will be forcibly taken from me and diverted to supporting a child of which I wanted no part.

And you can stick the misogyny card right back up into the place you pulled it from. Hatred plays no part in wanting the same options for men that are available to women, where it does not put a legal obligation on what a woman does with her own body.

I win by default! The two sweetest words in the English language! :p
 

Treblaine

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Paradoxrifts said:
Treblaine said:
No. The man's wishes cannot overrule the woman's control of her own body. That's totally unfair and unjustified and open to abuse. He made his decision when he chose to ejaculate in her, the die is cast then.
You keep coming back to abortion but this isn't simply about abortion.

I'm talking about choice, and when and where people can make them. Because right now two people make a choice, but only one person is ever given a choice on how that choice ultimately effects the rest of their lives.

If this is what you mean by equality, then no wonder nobody takes you seriously.
Well then what IS it about?

"only one person is ever given a choice on how that choice ultimately effects the rest of their lives."

What does that even MEAN?!?!

Be specific, what choice are you talking about? The woman choosing to take the biological father to court to claim child support?
 

Treblaine

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Paradoxrifts said:
It's simple. Allow the man the opportunity to sign away his rights and responsibilities, and walk away. At the very least he should be able to do so if he can prove that he would undergo significant economic hardship due to providing for child support payments.
Child support ALREADY recognises that men who cannot pay do not pay, and that the amount they pay is proportional to their income and is NOT designed to bankrupt them. It is not designed to take away all their disposable income as some kind of punishment.


"Allow the man the opportunity to sign away his rights and responsibilities"
How does that work? That all a man has to do is sign a form and void all responsibility wile doing and giving NOTHING in return?!?

For obvious reasons custody is treated completely separately from child-support as it may be highly inappropriate for some to come into contact with children that doesn't void their responsibility.

Child abandonment is a serious crime, women who do it go to prison if caught. Women can't just leave their responsibility for their child unless they are put into the care of other parents or single parent if they prove they can adequately raise the child.

The ONLY EQUIVALENT would be if the biological father proved that the baby had a new parent supporting it. Like for example if the mother of the baby was living romantically with a man who had the capability to support the child then the child becomes HIS responsibility.

Because while it's wrong for either parent to abandon your biological offspring, it's also wrong to involve yourself with a woman yet neglect to support her children.

Rememberer, the key part of child support is not the "gotta get money out of him" but "the child must be supported".

A single parent *can* raise a child, which is why they are not obliged to file a case asking the biological father to contribute.
 

Stasisesque

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Badguy said:
Stasisesque said:
Owyn_Merrilin said:
Stasisesque said:
Owyn_Merrilin said:
JimB said:
Owyn_Merrilin said:
Problem: when did "slut" come to mean "a woman who is honest about her sex drive, and enjoys sex?"
Outside of porn, I'm guessing more or less never.
And yet if you ask anyone involved with the slut walk movement (which is ultimately the reason we're having this conversation), they'll tell you that's exactly what it means, and since that's not a bad thing, we shouldn't be using the word as a pejorative. It absolutely boggles the mind.
I don't know what a Slut Walk is where you're from, but here they are protests against rape, not about enjoying sex. To participate in a Slut Walk is to demonstrate a woman should not have to change her attitude or clothing to avoid getting raped, but that people shouldn't rape in the first place.
Look up why they're called slut walks. It involved a cop suggesting that women probably shouldn't walk alone in a bad part of town "dressed like a slut," and it snowballed from there. It's primarily a protest against rape, but it's the use of the word "slut" that got everyone pissed off in the first place, and that definition is the reason frequently given for why the word itself is so offensive.
The cop told women not to 'dress like sluts' in order to stay safe,
Which makes sense, despite the poor choice of words.

i.e. to avoid getting raped. The founders of the movement responded to this by latching on to the offensive word, it isn't an attempt to reclaim the word as some sort of positive term.
That's good for them. I still think it's idiotic though.

Slut Walks are so named, at least the ones in London, to shock people into realising it isn't okay to use words like 'slut' to make excuses.
What excuses? Please elaborate.

A woman who enjoys sex is not a slut,
No, they certainly aren't. Sluts however are in fact sluts. The question is far more what we define to be a slut. I don't consider a Woman who enjoys sex a slut. But enjoying sex doesn't exactly require one to constantly look for it.

a woman who dresses provocatively is not 'asking for it',
Sure she is. Well, obviously not to be raped, that takes a special kind of person to actually want that, but she certainly is asking for special, sexual attention.

and 'slut-shaming' is repulsive behaviour. Perhaps some critics have taken the marches and their name the wrong way, but from those I know (and myself) who have joined up with these women, it isn't about reclaiming the word but shaming every single person who's used it and thought it was fine.

Why is this "repulsive behavior"? Sluts are something that society doesn't like. So why is it repulsive behavior to make it clear to them that the rest of us respect them less for it? What is repulsive about that? Do you respect everyone equally regardless of who they are and what they do? Don't bother answering, we both know you don't, in fact, the whole "repulsive bahavior" thing illustrates rather well that you disrespect people that would use the word.

Here's the thing. The cop is/was right. Obviously you shouldn't dress provocatively if you don't want that special attention. Obviously, if you do want that attention, some terrible people are going to give you more then you bargained for. Just because you don't want that to be true doesn't actually make it so, it just shows that you are in denial. Sadly we can't just magic all the rapists away. We can however tell women to avoid situations that might lead to them being raped. You know, like walking around in the worst area of the city in the middle of the night all alone whilst wearing nothing but dental floss. Sorry Ladies, but doing something like that just isn't a luxury you have. Just like I can't walk around a black neighborhood ironically chanting hate speech without getting my ass kicked. It doesn't really matter that I didn't actually mean to be racist, it's still how I'm going to come across...and I certainly wasn't asking to get the shit kicked out of me, but my behavior sure did compel it. Just like you weren't actually inviting everyone to fuck you and you certainly weren't asking to be raped, your behavior still compelled it though, so you certainly aren't entirely without fault.

*Not YOU specifically, YOU in the general sense.
I'll address all of your points, except your suggestion that the way a woman dresses somehow entitles her to some of the blame for being raped. That's a pretty inflammatory suggestion you've made and I don't want to get into an argument about it.

Excuses, such as well the above. Sexual assault comes in many forms, one of which is claiming the woman was 'asking for it', a frequently used excuse is that "she's a slut". Assault is assault, there are no excuses, however there is this overwhelming suggestion that if a girl is "a slut" she is somehow not entitled to enough respect to prevent this. I imagine, however, you're going to immediately disagree based on your comparison to committing a hate crime in a black neighbourhood.

If a woman enjoys sex she is entitled to look for it, however often she wants. Everyone is.

When I said a woman who dresses provocatively is not "asking for it" I was specifically referring to rape and sexual assault. Yes often they are looking for sexual attention, again there is nothing wrong with this.

The key word here is shaming. It's just a fancy-schmancy word for bullying, but with good cause. While it can apply to certain behaviours, enjoying sex frequently and with multiple partners is not a crime nor particularly bad behaviour and certainly shouldn't be treated as such. You are entitled to think of a "slut" badly, but that doesn't give you the right to treat one badly.

As I said, Slut Walks here are specifically to protest against rape, to show people that those who have been the victim of sexual assault or rape were not at fault regardless of their dress or behaviour.
 
Feb 22, 2009
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Because it's usually an insult, not just a neutral description. If you simply use it as that, fair enough. But most people consider it an insult.
 

Smeatza

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Stasisesque said:
I'll address all of your points, except your suggestion that the way a woman dresses somehow entitles her to some of the blame for being raped. That's a pretty inflammatory suggestion you've made and I don't want to get into an argument about it.

Excuses, such as well the above. Sexual assault comes in many forms, one of which is claiming the woman was 'asking for it', a frequently used excuse is that "she's a slut". Assault is assault, there are no excuses, however there is this overwhelming suggestion that if a girl is "a slut" she is somehow not entitled to enough respect to prevent this. I imagine, however, you're going to immediately disagree based on your comparison to committing a hate crime in a black neighbourhood.

If a woman enjoys sex she is entitled to look for it, however often she wants. Everyone is.

When I said a woman who dresses provocatively is not "asking for it" I was specifically referring to rape and sexual assault. Yes often they are looking for sexual attention, again there is nothing wrong with this.

The key word here is shaming. It's just a fancy-schmancy word for bullying, but with good cause. While it can apply to certain behaviours, enjoying sex frequently and with multiple partners is not a crime nor particularly bad behaviour and certainly shouldn't be treated as such. You are entitled to think of a "slut" badly, but that doesn't give you the right to treat one badly.

As I said, Slut Walks here are specifically to protest against rape, to show people that those who have been the victim of sexual assault or rape were not at fault regardless of their dress or behaviour.
If I go on holiday without locking the doors of my house, and while I am away on holiday my house gets robbed, I am not to blame. I should have been able to leave my house unlocked without someone stealing from it, but unfortunately, in real life, that is not the case.

While I understand that point the slutwalk movement is trying to make I think it is going about it in the totally wrong way.
It gives the impression that individuals should not practice risk-management in their day to day life and seeks to remove a certain sense of personal responsibility.

The fact of the matter is that if you wear sexually provocative clothing in areas with high crime levels, you are more likely to get raped than if you don't. No that does not mean one should be blamed if they are raped as a result of wearing sexually provocative clothing, but it also doesn't mean you should explicitly tempt the odds.

Like I say, it is simple risk management, not victim blaming/shaming at all.
 

themind

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Because if you want to describe someone who sleeps around, you call them promiscuous, not a slut.

Slut has a negative connotation attached to it, very much the difference between calling a gay person gay or calling them homo/queer/[insert term].

It's insulting to use foul language to describe people, period.
 

Hoplon

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Mar 31, 2010
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Badguy said:
Stasisesque said:
The cop told women not to 'dress like sluts' in order to stay safe'
Which makes sense, despite the poor choice of words.
Why? it what way does how you dress have an actual effect on other peoples choices? Because I a pretty sure it has nothing to do with it other than as a excuse for apologists.

i.e. to avoid getting raped. The founders of the movement responded to this by latching on to the offensive word, it isn't an attempt to reclaim the word as some sort of positive term.
That's good for them. I still think it's idiotic though.
SUPER!

Slut Walks are so named, at least the ones in London, to shock people into realising it isn't okay to use words like 'slut' to make excuses.
What excuses? Please elaborate.
"That they where asking for it" "not to dress like sluts' in order to stay safe" the same tired old victim blame bullshit you seem set on perpetuating

A woman who enjoys sex is not a slut,
No, they certainly aren't. Sluts however are in fact sluts. The question is far more what we define to be a slut. I don't consider a Woman who enjoys sex a slut. But enjoying sex doesn't exactly require one to constantly look for it.
Nor does enjoying sex mean they do? I'm not even sure what you are talking about, seeking out sex is pretty much normal behaviour for our species, since with out it we die out. See Giant Pandas for referance.

a woman who dresses provocatively is not 'asking for it',
Sure she is. Well, obviously not to be raped, that takes a special kind of person to actually want that, but she certainly is asking for special, sexual attention.
Is that what you call it?

and 'slut-shaming' is repulsive behaviour. Perhaps some critics have taken the marches and their name the wrong way, but from those I know (and myself) who have joined up with these women, it isn't about reclaiming the word but shaming every single person who's used it and thought it was fine.
Why is this "repulsive behavior"? Sluts are something that society doesn't like. So why is it repulsive behavior to make it clear to them that the rest of us respect them less for it? What is repulsive about that? Do you respect everyone equally regardless of who they are and what they do? Don't bother answering, we both know you don't, in fact, the whole "repulsive bahavior" thing illustrates rather well that you disrespect people that would use the word.

Here's the thing. The cop is/was right. Obviously you shouldn't dress provocatively if you don't want that special attention. Obviously, if you do want that attention, some terrible people are going to give you more then you bargained for. Just because you don't want that to be true doesn't actually make it so, it just shows that you are in denial. Sadly we can't just magic all the rapists away. We can however tell women to avoid situations that might lead to them being raped. You know, like walking around in the worst area of the city in the middle of the night all alone whilst wearing nothing but dental floss. Sorry Ladies, but doing something like that just isn't a luxury you have. Just like I can't walk around a black neighborhood ironically chanting hate speech without getting my ass kicked. It doesn't really matter that I didn't actually mean to be racist, it's still how I'm going to come across...and I certainly wasn't asking to get the shit kicked out of me, but my behavior sure did compel it. Just like you weren't actually inviting everyone to fuck you and you certainly weren't asking to be raped, your behavior still compelled it though, so you certainly aren't entirely without fault.

*Not YOU specifically, YOU in the general sense.
Yeah see that's why it's repulsive, you're blaming a victim of a fucking horrible assault for something that was some one else's decision, a decision that was almost certainly made long before they even encountered the victim at all. The cop isn't right, you aren't right. How a woman dresses or behaves has nothing to do with whether or not they where assaulted. The fact that people like you think it does is what make them so afraid of reporting it.
 

Hoplon

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Smeatza said:
If I go on holiday without locking the doors of my house, and while I am away on holiday my house gets robbed, I am not to blame. I should have been able to leave my house unlocked without someone stealing from it, but unfortunately, in real life, that is not the case.

While I understand that point the slutwalk movement is trying to make I think it is going about it in the totally wrong way.
It gives the impression that individuals should not practice risk-management in their day to day life and seeks to remove a certain sense of personal responsibility.

The fact of the matter is that if you wear sexually provocative clothing in areas with high crime levels, you are more likely to get raped than if you don't. No that does not mean one should be blamed if they are raped as a result of wearing sexually provocative clothing, but it also doesn't mean you should explicitly tempt the odds.

Like I say, it is simple risk management, not victim blaming/shaming at all.
...The most provocative clothes in the world do not in anyway equate to not locking your house up, it not even like leaving an upstairs window open.

And high risk areas? the fuck? this shit happens in peoples own homes, not on the mean streets.
 

Stasisesque

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Badguy said:
Stasisesque said:
Badguy said:
Stasisesque said:
Owyn_Merrilin said:
Stasisesque said:
Owyn_Merrilin said:
JimB said:
Owyn_Merrilin said:
Problem: when did "slut" come to mean "a woman who is honest about her sex drive, and enjoys sex?"
Outside of porn, I'm guessing more or less never.
And yet if you ask anyone involved with the slut walk movement (which is ultimately the reason we're having this conversation), they'll tell you that's exactly what it means, and since that's not a bad thing, we shouldn't be using the word as a pejorative. It absolutely boggles the mind.
I don't know what a Slut Walk is where you're from, but here they are protests against rape, not about enjoying sex. To participate in a Slut Walk is to demonstrate a woman should not have to change her attitude or clothing to avoid getting raped, but that people shouldn't rape in the first place.
Look up why they're called slut walks. It involved a cop suggesting that women probably shouldn't walk alone in a bad part of town "dressed like a slut," and it snowballed from there. It's primarily a protest against rape, but it's the use of the word "slut" that got everyone pissed off in the first place, and that definition is the reason frequently given for why the word itself is so offensive.
The cop told women not to 'dress like sluts' in order to stay safe,
Which makes sense, despite the poor choice of words.

i.e. to avoid getting raped. The founders of the movement responded to this by latching on to the offensive word, it isn't an attempt to reclaim the word as some sort of positive term.
That's good for them. I still think it's idiotic though.

Slut Walks are so named, at least the ones in London, to shock people into realising it isn't okay to use words like 'slut' to make excuses.
What excuses? Please elaborate.

A woman who enjoys sex is not a slut,
No, they certainly aren't. Sluts however are in fact sluts. The question is far more what we define to be a slut. I don't consider a Woman who enjoys sex a slut. But enjoying sex doesn't exactly require one to constantly look for it.

a woman who dresses provocatively is not 'asking for it',
Sure she is. Well, obviously not to be raped, that takes a special kind of person to actually want that, but she certainly is asking for special, sexual attention.

and 'slut-shaming' is repulsive behaviour. Perhaps some critics have taken the marches and their name the wrong way, but from those I know (and myself) who have joined up with these women, it isn't about reclaiming the word but shaming every single person who's used it and thought it was fine.

Why is this "repulsive behavior"? Sluts are something that society doesn't like. So why is it repulsive behavior to make it clear to them that the rest of us respect them less for it? What is repulsive about that? Do you respect everyone equally regardless of who they are and what they do? Don't bother answering, we both know you don't, in fact, the whole "repulsive bahavior" thing illustrates rather well that you disrespect people that would use the word.

Here's the thing. The cop is/was right. Obviously you shouldn't dress provocatively if you don't want that special attention. Obviously, if you do want that attention, some terrible people are going to give you more then you bargained for. Just because you don't want that to be true doesn't actually make it so, it just shows that you are in denial. Sadly we can't just magic all the rapists away. We can however tell women to avoid situations that might lead to them being raped. You know, like walking around in the worst area of the city in the middle of the night all alone whilst wearing nothing but dental floss. Sorry Ladies, but doing something like that just isn't a luxury you have. Just like I can't walk around a black neighborhood ironically chanting hate speech without getting my ass kicked. It doesn't really matter that I didn't actually mean to be racist, it's still how I'm going to come across...and I certainly wasn't asking to get the shit kicked out of me, but my behavior sure did compel it. Just like you weren't actually inviting everyone to fuck you and you certainly weren't asking to be raped, your behavior still compelled it though, so you certainly aren't entirely without fault.

*Not YOU specifically, YOU in the general sense.
I'll address all of your points, except your suggestion that the way a woman dresses somehow entitles her to some of the blame for being raped. That's a pretty inflammatory suggestion you've made and I don't want to get into an argument about it.
So, basically you are going to answer everything except the main point which is questioning your overall stance? If you do truely believe that a victim can never shoulder any kind of blame in any way, I'm sure you can elaborate why that is. Please, do so.

Excuses, such as well the above. Sexual assault comes in many forms, one of which is claiming the woman was 'asking for it', a frequently used excuse is that "she's a slut".
When and by whom? I can't help but get the feeling that you don't actually understand what people like the police officer and I am saying. Evident in the next gem.

Assault is assault, there are no excuses, however there is this overwhelming suggestion that if a girl is "a slut" she is somehow not entitled to enough respect to prevent this.
See, this is where you wander into stupid territory. Nobody is saying that a slut deserves to be raped, atleast nobody in their right mind. This is you misinterpreting what you are reading. People that actually think that way, that dressing provocatively is a REASON to rape someone will gain no respect from anyone. You are essentially arguing a point that nobody made.

I imagine, however, you're going to immediately disagree based on your comparison to committing a hate crime in a black neighbourhood.
I don't have to disagree because I honestly do not. I just think you are misguided and do not understand what the actual argument is.

If a woman enjoys sex she is entitled to look for it, however often she wants. Everyone is.
People are entitled to a lot of things, that however is not a argument. I could also go out and kill somebody right now, sure, it would be illegal, but what would actually be stopping me? Nothing would. I am entitled to do whatever I want, I may be punished in context of the law or the context of society, I can still do whatever I want though. The same applies to the slut, sure, he/she can fuck around as much as they want, they however aren't entitled to this being ignored by everyone else.

When I said a woman who dresses provocatively is not "asking for it" I was specifically referring to rape and sexual assault. Yes often they are looking for sexual attention, again there is nothing wrong with this.
I know, the second point however isn't as irrelevant as you seem to want to portray it.

The key word here is shaming. It's just a fancy-schmancy word for bullying, but with good cause. While it can apply to certain behaviours, enjoying sex frequently and with multiple partners is not a crime nor particularly bad behaviour and certainly shouldn't be treated as such. You are entitled to think of a "slut" badly, but that doesn't give you the right to treat one badly.
Sure I do. Why wouldn't I have the right to treat someone badly? If I didn't I'd be arrested for shaming them, wouldn't I? I also disagree with your stance that it isn't bad behavior. It is. It is to ignore others well-being for your own personal gratification. That hurts society, it is, by definition, bad behavior in the context of society. Shaming them is soceitys way of getting them back in line. That's not something that everybody wants but it is ultimately whats best for the collective.

Now, I don't actually shame anyone, that however doesn't change the fact that some things are deserving of said shaming.

As I said, Slut Walks here are specifically to protest against rape, to show people that those who have been the victim of sexual assault or rape were not at fault regardless of their dress or behaviour.
I know full well WHY they do those things. They are still wrong though.
The quotes got all messed up here so it was pretty hard to follow. My remark that there is an overwhelming suggestion that if a girl is a "slut" she is not entitled to respect was not in reference to any points made by you, or even in this thread, but simply a continuation of the explanation for why Slut Walks happen. They are there to dispel the myth that a "slut" is somehow a lesser human being. The rapist should be on the receiving end of all of the vitriol, but they often are not. Arguments like yours that the victim should shoulder some of the blame are the most frequently chanted. I find it very difficult to argue successfully against such a claim, because to me it's a baffling stance to take.

In my mind the thought of a victim of rape or sexual assault having to assume any blame is ridiculous. It's like asking someone who's been stabbed to apologise for being near a person with a knife, or someone who's been mugged accepting that maybe they shouldn't own valuables. If either of those retaliations seem insane to you, that is how your argument sounds to me.
 

Angie7F

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Nov 11, 2011
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I think whether you call it a slut or promiscuous, there is always judgement.
However maybe the word will evolve to be used in a little more "empowering" way soon, like the word *****.
A lot of women (including Paris Hilton circa simple life) used it to mean women who are outspoken and know what they want. So mayb the same for slut too.
 

Smeatza

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Dec 12, 2011
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Hoplon said:
...The most provocative clothes in the world do not in anyway equate to not locking your house up, it not even like leaving an upstairs window open.
If that's where you choose to draw a line then that is your opinion.
If that metaphor is too much for you - I choose not to display my mobile phone in high crime areas due to the risk of it being stolen (and thus a risk of me being assaulted).

Hoplon said:
And high risk areas? the fuck? this shit happens in peoples own homes, not on the mean streets.
I was referring to the slutwalk movement, which is entirely about the "mean streets."
 

Hoplon

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Mar 31, 2010
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Badguy said:
Also because you say so? Wow, your post was really insightful, boy am I glad that somebody told me I'm wrong because he says so.
oh I'm sorry I seem to have missed your massive amount of corroboratory evidence for your position. I'm sure if I dig around it will pop up some where...

Wait no, it won't because there isn't any.

Yes I refuted your opinion with my own. It's not on me to prove anything you're the one saying it's causal, I'm disagreeing. Also even a quick google turns up lots of stuff that show it had nothing to do with the way they are dressed in public. [http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders]
 

Hoplon

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Mar 31, 2010
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Smeatza said:
I choose not to display my mobile phone in high crime areas due to the risk of it being stolen (and thus a risk of me being assaulted)
Smeatza said:
I was referring to the slutwalk movement, which is entirely about the "mean streets."
Okay, you keep using high crime areas like it means something, it doesn't. this is not something that happens to people in the same way as showing off expensive items leads to theft.

Rape is not about desire, it's about power and control.