Believe what you want. I know I'm not being dishonest here. So that's really all there is. But this has been fun all the same.Mortai Gravesend said:
The slut issue
- Thread starter Kakashi on crack
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Mortai Gravesend said:
I'm not being dishonest at all, in a peace loving society such as ours we will find violence and condemnation in almost anything, its virtually impossible to hold a strong opinion without offending or insulting someone else.
Could doesn't mean jack shit, it gives the possibility of another scenario. As for the connotations being negative that all depends on what you choose to read into it. The swastika has Nazi connotations attributed to it since WW2, but it always has positive connotations as well, which connotation applies relies on context... or would you call a member of the 45th Division (from WW1) a nazi?
There's no way to address your ****** comment subtly so I'll take it head on. Black people do call other ******. Its assumed that its a slur whether its intended to be or not. So be honest tell me, Black people using a word is ok, but White people using it is bad? Is that like a gay person calling another gay person a fag is ok but if one of them is straight thats just wrong and homophobic?
The term Slut is not merely "stating the fact that they have sex" like how "liar" means that they do the act of lying, or gamer means that they "game" (which is a verb) but there is no verb for "slut" there is not a single act of "slutting".Kakashi on crack said:
The term "slut" is MAKING A JUDGEMENT that they should not be having the AMOUNT sex they are having, as if you can somehow draw a line in their own lives but such a judgement is arbitrary.
The term "slut" is ABSOLUTELY NOT used - or understood to be used - for someone who has any sex at all.
Sex is not a bad thing, it's a highly socially acceptable thing and the negative connotations of the term "virgin" exemplify how important it is socially to get laid.
"It seems to me like you're just stating the obvious"
No it is NOT obvious! Your mother of course has had sex in order for you to exist (Unless you were conceived by in vitro fertillisation) but that doesn't make her a slut, I'm quite sure she's a wonderful woman. Actually stop and think about that, how would you like it everyone calling your dear mother a "slut" because she merely gave birth to you?
I'm sorry if that's a bit close, I don't know anything about your mother but I'm speaking broadly of everyone and their mothers.
Also "slut" is blatantly a sexist term as it simply DOES NOT STICK to men. Men can sleep with as many women as they like and there is no commonly understood term to denigrate them to the extent of "slut".
The term slut is used to CONTROL WOMEN! Mainly so one man can keep a woman all too him self, for example a woman is never called a slut if she only has sex with one man even if her boyfriend or husband is constantly using her.
Don't use the term slut, it has one purpose: to attack women who are as sexually free as men. Men are PROUD to have slept with as many different women, there is no shame in the number being high only being low. But a woman is shamed for experiencing more than one man by terms like "slut".
Summary:
-"Slut" is not a neutral descriptive term.
-It is a term of unfair arbitrary judgement
-It is sexist in its design, use and purpose
-You wouldn't accept it used against your own mother, don't use it against anyone else.
The term is used to refer primarily to females and it carries a lot of negative weight.Kakashi on crack said:
Males are referred to as "Lads", "Players" and all the rest for what they do. It is a good thing.
But, well, there is almost no point in me throwing my voice into this crowd. You know why using the term is wrong, you are just seeking validation for using it from other people.
If you are judging someone then its judgemental, if not how then would you suggest you refer to someone male or female who sleeps with large numbers of people? And for the record I have guy friends who I have and will continue to say are sluts.Treblaine said:
As for the fairness or arbitrariness of the word you're right, but lying and cheating can also fairly arbitrary and it does often depend on a certain point of view.
If it is so sexist and controlling and intended purely to shame a woman into submission so she meekly accepts that she is dirty and unclean and should be faithful only to the one man who took her virginity then why do women use it so very often?
In short a word is judgemental because you're judging. Call a Muslim a pig or a dog and thats one hell of a fight you're starting, call a Aussie a pig and he'll just shrug it off. It all depends on context.
As an Afro-negro-dark skinned thing, I fully indorse white people calling black people the N word as much as they want.MagunBFP said:
Freedom of speech up in this *****!
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I just wanted to point out that the textbook definition says it's a derogatory term, so it makes sense that people would assume it's an insult.Shadowstar38 said:
Definition form dictionary.com:
1. an immoral or dissolute woman; prostitute.
2. Obsolete . a dirty, slovenly woman.
Freedictionary.com
1.a. A person, especially a woman, considered sexually promiscuous.
b. A woman prostitute.
2. A slovenly woman; a slattern.
1. a dirty slatternly woman
2. an immoral woman
3. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Animals) Archaic a female dog
Wikipedia
Slut or slattern is a term applied to an individual who is considered to have loose sexual morals or who is sexually promiscuous. The term is generally pejorative and most often applied to women as an insult or offensive term of disparagement, meaning "dirty or slovenly." However, some women have demonstrated saying they are proud of being "sluts" and want to give it a positive connotation.
Those are the 3 first things in google anyway, as you can see they all say that it's negative, though Wikipedia says that it does have some people that see it as a positive, I won't argue more since English isn't my first language and I only use it on the Internet and to watch films without subtitles, I will not pretend to know how is it that you people use that word, but in any case this argument between you 2 has been going on all day, don't you guys get tired?
Allow me to direct you to this.Kaleion said:
I believe you have gained full understanding now.
I've seen a couple of people attempting to justify their use by "If she's offended it's because she can't handle the truth/deep down feels that what she is doing is wrong."
Nope. While there may be specific cases of this, most people aren't offended by things because you've reached deep into their soul and found their crippling insecurity and just given them an epiphany. If I call you a jackass, the likelihood of you going "Hey.... maybe I'm a jackass." is pretty low I'm guessing. It's possible, but I think we'd be justified in assuming the reason the word is hurtful is not usually because of some deep down realisation. That's textbook victim blame. If I use words which imply judgement or distaste for someone, and they feel judged or that someone is disgusted by them, which offends them, that's on me, and I'm not doing them some kind of service by doing so. Humans are social, and we feel the impact of social pressures.
People are usually offended by the social meaning of the word, and that it's being applied to them. It's to do with how they value how people percieve them. Ever notice how if you annoy even slightly the roid-raging insecure overbearing types, they go nuts? Or if you try to insult slackers, it tends to be fruitless? It's because insults are primarily a social thing, and depend on the value that a person places on the language and those involved. Yes, I'm generalising. Deal with it, I'm sure you can read the rest into it.
Look at say, the gay community. They were told for a long period of time that they were wrong, that they were abominations, that they were damnable. Now, whether or not they believed that themselves, and indeed, some of them did, the sense of judgement and alienation from society was one of the bigger issues. People insulting them wasn't rekindling some long-denied truth, it was alienating them from society, which is where the hurt comes from. Most people value societal acceptance, and fear being hated or dismissed.
As several have pointed out, refer to a black person by the N-word. They're not going to treat it as if you've described their person. You've used a word which implies a history of inequality, and implies a distaste for them on your part. Deep down, they aren't going "Maybe I am just a N*****." They're going "This jackass thinks he's able to call me that?" It's the social context that matters to language, a social construct.
I think the real problem here is that you're trying to justify the use of the word in the absence of another word without negative connotations for people who enjoy promiscuity and sex for the sake of sex. We don't need to try to take the offensive word for this, we just make another. And for this, I fully endorse Abandon's suggestion, with Caffiene's amendment: Schwinning is sleeping around, and those who do, are Schwinners. And if they're doing it whilst on massive amounts of cocaine, they're bi-Schwinning!
Nope. While there may be specific cases of this, most people aren't offended by things because you've reached deep into their soul and found their crippling insecurity and just given them an epiphany. If I call you a jackass, the likelihood of you going "Hey.... maybe I'm a jackass." is pretty low I'm guessing. It's possible, but I think we'd be justified in assuming the reason the word is hurtful is not usually because of some deep down realisation. That's textbook victim blame. If I use words which imply judgement or distaste for someone, and they feel judged or that someone is disgusted by them, which offends them, that's on me, and I'm not doing them some kind of service by doing so. Humans are social, and we feel the impact of social pressures.
People are usually offended by the social meaning of the word, and that it's being applied to them. It's to do with how they value how people percieve them. Ever notice how if you annoy even slightly the roid-raging insecure overbearing types, they go nuts? Or if you try to insult slackers, it tends to be fruitless? It's because insults are primarily a social thing, and depend on the value that a person places on the language and those involved. Yes, I'm generalising. Deal with it, I'm sure you can read the rest into it.
Look at say, the gay community. They were told for a long period of time that they were wrong, that they were abominations, that they were damnable. Now, whether or not they believed that themselves, and indeed, some of them did, the sense of judgement and alienation from society was one of the bigger issues. People insulting them wasn't rekindling some long-denied truth, it was alienating them from society, which is where the hurt comes from. Most people value societal acceptance, and fear being hated or dismissed.
As several have pointed out, refer to a black person by the N-word. They're not going to treat it as if you've described their person. You've used a word which implies a history of inequality, and implies a distaste for them on your part. Deep down, they aren't going "Maybe I am just a N*****." They're going "This jackass thinks he's able to call me that?" It's the social context that matters to language, a social construct.
I think the real problem here is that you're trying to justify the use of the word in the absence of another word without negative connotations for people who enjoy promiscuity and sex for the sake of sex. We don't need to try to take the offensive word for this, we just make another. And for this, I fully endorse Abandon's suggestion, with Caffiene's amendment: Schwinning is sleeping around, and those who do, are Schwinners. And if they're doing it whilst on massive amounts of cocaine, they're bi-Schwinning!
00Slash love the link but you mention that people don't get sexually assualted for being gamers, and you're right... nerds, dorks, "outsiders" of whatever flavour just get bullied and assualted, verbally or physically (you've been to highschool or college?). Women who aren't "sluts" get sexually assualted as well as the sluts. That people do use the word as an insult doesn't make it a bad word, it's just a descriptor, like happy or gay or bald.
At the end of the day I don't care who you sleep with or how often you get laid. If its not relevant to the conversation its not going to come up, but if its relevant to conversation I'm going to use the work I think fits, all I can do is be responsible for the words that come out of my mouth, and allow you to read into them whatever you like. If I say you have alot of sex with different people and you think I'm calling you a terrible person thats on you.
At the end of the day I don't care who you sleep with or how often you get laid. If its not relevant to the conversation its not going to come up, but if its relevant to conversation I'm going to use the work I think fits, all I can do is be responsible for the words that come out of my mouth, and allow you to read into them whatever you like. If I say you have alot of sex with different people and you think I'm calling you a terrible person thats on you.
Not denying the existence of double standards, but this statement does need some qualification.lunavixen said:
It depends the rung of the social ladder and age. I am 24, and I move about in circles that are highly educated, and this double standard doesn't exist. People who have a lot of casual sex are... people who have a lot of casual sex.
As for the lower classes/"rabble"... Who cares how they think and do?
"how then would you suggest you refer to someone male or female who sleeps with large numbers of people?"MagunBFP said:
We managed for centuries without a specific term for men who have sex often, we don't need a special one for women. And slut IS used against women, it's only ironically and ineffectively used against men.
I guess you could call both male and female who get laid often: "lucky"
"lying and cheating can also fairly arbitrary"
Absolutely NOT!
Lying is not telling the truth. Cheating is going against what you promised to do. These are objective terms, no perspective needed.
"then why do women use (the term slut) so very often?"
Because they are bound by the same rules FORCED ON THEM unfairly, they get marked out for being a slut if they break them they don't want to see one woman get away with it. When a group of women all defy these gender conventions of "female purity and submissiveness" then they only ever use the term slut ironically as in "ha ha, we're such sluts lol" much like how open homosexuals may use the term "fag" or black people may use the term "******". Not that closeted homosexuals don't use the term "******" is a mean and hurtful way or that there are not black people who are racist towards other black people in using terms like "******".
Also, the way you use judgemental is as if all judging is equal.
It is not acceptable to judge people in things that don't afflict others. Judging a vandal for destroying other people's property is completely different from judging people in their private loving relationships as negative.
The subtext is clear: men want woman all to themselves and women also confirm to that.
What about a woman/man who freely admits she sleeps around?Evil Smurf said:
I once dated a girl who was known as the Disney Whore (she worked at Disney), because she slept around. I found out later she was sleeping with at least 2 other people besides me, thats pretty slutty...
There are many reasons why it's wrong and here is to list a few.Kakashi on crack said:
1. Negative connotations, labels. It's the same of calling someone black or a negro monkey.
2. Negative consequences for the labeled person. We lived in a world of retards justifying their need to bully others - aka the religious. Don't get people stoned to death for a victim-less crime - that said, a victim-less crime is not a crime, the stoning is a crime though.
3. Why was it ever wrong to be a slut in the first place? The answer is because of primal jealousy from uneducated selfish dumb ape brained men. We ought to have out grown that shit by now no? I feel that religious non-sluts and the sort are more of a problem, like a mental disease. If that is the case, then why label the natural? Why label the biologically normal? When the mental disorder of suppressing the urge of procreating is abnormal?
#3 could be neglected if you can think of a real (non excuse, non justification, non fallacy) reason that being a slut as well as the acceptance of sluts is harmful. I say sluts but I mean for both genders. I personally don't see hating on sluts anything other than tradition, like stoning was a tradition. Don't say biological jealousy, if sluts are the norm then people will not be objects to be owned. I think that's a plus.
Other people have different ideas on it, but those are mine.
Actually there's plenty of terms for men that mean generally "someone who sleeps around": stud, player, playboy, ladies man, lady killer, etc. and all of them are used with a positive connotation (and I actually can't think of a negative one other that doesn't tack a male adjective in front of "slut" or "whore").Treblaine said:
I find people who need to call others `sluts` are usually insecure.
It's an insult.
You can hum and ha about it, but that's what it is.
Not only that, it's a fucking stupid insult.
It suggests that women, (whether they want sex or not) are supposed to make sex `difficult` to obtain.
How about the next time you feel you need to label someone as such, you just keep your mouth shut. I am certain your head will not explode.
It's an insult.
You can hum and ha about it, but that's what it is.
Not only that, it's a fucking stupid insult.
It suggests that women, (whether they want sex or not) are supposed to make sex `difficult` to obtain.
How about the next time you feel you need to label someone as such, you just keep your mouth shut. I am certain your head will not explode.
Lying is always an absolute? Give me 100 people and then ask them is President Clinton had "sexual relations" with that woman, Miss Lowinski, and I very much doubt you will get 100% agreement on if he did or didn't... or maybe ask those 100 people just how far you would have to be before you were cheating on your partner and many different people would have different opinions... you could almost say the line is arbitrarily drawn.
If all women use slut to keep other women as prisoners to society then I pity them, that is an endless cycle of victimisation you are all perpetuating... maybe one day some good men will come along and set you free from these cruel expections you've been damned to try to live up to. All taunting aside, if you do something because you think it makes you more attractive or socially acceptible then you need help. The right thing is the right thing and no ones opinion of you matters more then your own, but I can say that I live the charmed life of the White, 30-ish, middle-class, decently educated, Male... in otherwords I'm the devil who has kept everyone else in chains and submission.
For the record I agree judging a vandal for destroying someone else's property is not bad, but its no different from judging a heroin addict who is only affecting themself, nor is it any different from judging a polygamous couple for having an open relationship...
The subtext is confusing... some women want other women, some men are very submissive and other women are either consumed with self-loathing or want to be seen as victims so they can rise above their male oppressors
If all women use slut to keep other women as prisoners to society then I pity them, that is an endless cycle of victimisation you are all perpetuating... maybe one day some good men will come along and set you free from these cruel expections you've been damned to try to live up to. All taunting aside, if you do something because you think it makes you more attractive or socially acceptible then you need help. The right thing is the right thing and no ones opinion of you matters more then your own, but I can say that I live the charmed life of the White, 30-ish, middle-class, decently educated, Male... in otherwords I'm the devil who has kept everyone else in chains and submission.
For the record I agree judging a vandal for destroying someone else's property is not bad, but its no different from judging a heroin addict who is only affecting themself, nor is it any different from judging a polygamous couple for having an open relationship...
The subtext is confusing... some women want other women, some men are very submissive and other women are either consumed with self-loathing or want to be seen as victims so they can rise above their male oppressors