The female equivalent of Punisher or Catwoman wouldn't necessarily be exact duplicates only with the opposite gender's genitalia.RossaLincoln said:
The Switch: 3 Classic Characters That Should Be Gender Swapped
- Thread starter RossaLincoln
- Start date
Nope, not interested in a sex-swapped version of either Cat Woman or the Punisher ( I'm not really familiar with Nexus, so I can't really say if his sex effected his perceived gender role to me); It does seem lazy to me, at least if it is a straight sex-swap, and lacking in narrative finesse to attain, and I'll be honest, I am not really comfortable with it.
But that's just my opinion, mind you, and I certainly wouldn't tell people they COULDN'T do this.
I'm just not going to buy it.
Interesting article, though!
But that's just my opinion, mind you, and I certainly wouldn't tell people they COULDN'T do this.
I'm just not going to buy it.
Interesting article, though!
Have you looked into this? At least in the UK you are far mor likely to be the victim of crime as a male aged 15-25. That includes violent crime like robbery and assault.RossaLincoln said:
I do think a female Punisher would work really well. Would a Male Cat woman be that amazing though? Is it not similar to Marvels Blackpanther or DCs Wildcat?
If you're going to swap genders, you're going to have to change their race and sexual identity too. Let's not limit ourselves to just gender and leave them white.
A pakistani transexual Batperson would cover a lot of positive ground. Or a black lesbian Punisher with dwarfism.
A pakistani transexual Batperson would cover a lot of positive ground. Or a black lesbian Punisher with dwarfism.
The Punisher short (also with Thomas Jane) is fucking awesome though.The Gentleman said:
OT: I can see having a female equivelant of Punisher and a male equivelant for Catwoman but to change those actual characters doesnt really seem like a good idea to me. It just screams "We just want to break gender roles with this change" and that is not what those characters are about.
You want that to be a big part of the character then have it be a new one, like the character from the Columbiana, although in that case it doesnt even seems like it is trying to break gender roles because at the end of the day anyone can be the person that goes on a killing spree for justice and the female version of that is even quite popular.
Something that does not come across in the trailer is that she does have a bit more of a life outside of her dayjob. One of the things that actually compromises her relative peace is her boyfriend, who innocently snaps a picture of her that inadvertently sets off a (somewhat foreseeable) chain of events that reveals her location. Her mannerisms and poise are clearly feminine, but, minus a justifiable catsuit at the beginning of act II and a wetsuit a bit later, the action scenes are neither exploitative nor underdone.josemlopes said:
The movie has its weaknesses, mainly a lot of underdeveloped characters where you spend more time filling in the blanks about them than they have actual screentime and a few outright stereotypes, as well as a third act that appears a tad short, but it can easily hold it's own as a solid B Action Movie.
Catwoman gender-switched might be an interesting social experiment, but as a plausible character, I think he would be lacking.
In Catwoman's transformation from villain to anti-hero, her sex, "sex appeal, stylishness and playfulness" are largely secondary to the fact that she has remained first and foremost a thief while most of Batman's "Rogue's Gallery" have turned into mass-murderers, serial-killers, and terrorists. Even villains for whom murder is not nearly their whole raison d'etre, like Riddler and Penguin, are rarely shown to shy away from it in the course of business. Catwoman only seems to kill when absolutely pushed to the wall- something which gives her more in common with the recent incarnations of the Bat.
The closest character I imagine to a "male Catwoman" is something like Lupin III; my experiences with that character suggest he exists in a world shaped around allowing such a character to exist. So does James Bond, for that matter.
Where male, heterosexual characters are the typical instigators of violence- whether villains, heroes, or law-enforcement- Catwoman's sex means her adversaries underestimate her; her sex-appeal and banter means they're distracted by her. A male cat-burglar would be unlikely to encounter situations that would play to such an advantage.
I'm reminded of a long-ago study that suggested that both men and women, shown an image of a woman in a bathtub, were likely to think the image "sexy", but a similar picture of a man "humorous". One can argue about whether that's something inherent to our human view of men and women or something social conditioning or the media has done to us, but it still seems to be the reality.
[link]http://nortonbooks.typepad.com/everydaysociology/2009/05/who-is-most-likely-to-be-a-crime-victim.html[/link]
Women are more frequently the victims of sexual assault and domestic violence; in just about every other category, men are more often the victims of violent crimes.
There's a certain danger even for well-meaning people to buy into a particular narrative that suits their underlying beliefs and stop looking to see if reality conforms.
In Catwoman's transformation from villain to anti-hero, her sex, "sex appeal, stylishness and playfulness" are largely secondary to the fact that she has remained first and foremost a thief while most of Batman's "Rogue's Gallery" have turned into mass-murderers, serial-killers, and terrorists. Even villains for whom murder is not nearly their whole raison d'etre, like Riddler and Penguin, are rarely shown to shy away from it in the course of business. Catwoman only seems to kill when absolutely pushed to the wall- something which gives her more in common with the recent incarnations of the Bat.
The closest character I imagine to a "male Catwoman" is something like Lupin III; my experiences with that character suggest he exists in a world shaped around allowing such a character to exist. So does James Bond, for that matter.
Where male, heterosexual characters are the typical instigators of violence- whether villains, heroes, or law-enforcement- Catwoman's sex means her adversaries underestimate her; her sex-appeal and banter means they're distracted by her. A male cat-burglar would be unlikely to encounter situations that would play to such an advantage.
I'm reminded of a long-ago study that suggested that both men and women, shown an image of a woman in a bathtub, were likely to think the image "sexy", but a similar picture of a man "humorous". One can argue about whether that's something inherent to our human view of men and women or something social conditioning or the media has done to us, but it still seems to be the reality.
Actually, it's so completely untrue as to border on the grotesque.bjj hero said:
[link]http://nortonbooks.typepad.com/everydaysociology/2009/05/who-is-most-likely-to-be-a-crime-victim.html[/link]
Women are more frequently the victims of sexual assault and domestic violence; in just about every other category, men are more often the victims of violent crimes.
There's a certain danger even for well-meaning people to buy into a particular narrative that suits their underlying beliefs and stop looking to see if reality conforms.
As people have pointed out Catman has been around for a while actually, and he's pretty much as described. Typically he steps in and kicks a lot of butt, and then steps out. He's done things like save Gotham vigilantes during prison uprisings and such. He's also been one of "The Secret Six" and other assorted big moments. He's a character that works because he has a decent amount of cred, but isn't overused, so people tend to forget about him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catman_(comics)
Oh and if you pay attention he's been around since the 1960s, and the writers have defined him as bi-sexual (since the comments about homophobia were int he article).
The big question is whether or not Catman could carry his own book, or otherwise see more frequent use, I'm not sure about that to be honest. All political arguments for it aside, he's a character that works best when he's not overused nowadays as I pointed out.
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The She-Punisher also existed, as a limited "what if" at one point if I remember but I don't remember much about it. Punisher 2099 also featured a renegade "pleasure doll" (shades of Blade Runner) called "Vendetta" who became his partner, she covered a lot of the same territory.
To be honest with you though, I don't think there is a problem with women in comics being too "soft, nice, and submissive" for the most part, and it hasn't been an issue for a long time. Indeed it's become something of a trope/ongoing joke that a lot of sociopathic behavior gets ignored when perpetuated by women in comics, especially with creators who go out of their way to make them do the whole "hardass" thing. For example if you start going through the list of say female characters in "Wildstorm" which WAS a major imprint for a while, your going to run into characters like Zealot, Jenny Sparks, Maxine "Ladytron" Manchester (absolute psycho), Flint, The Engineer, Swift, Nemesis, and scads of others. One of the old comments about the general "Wildstorm" formula was that as a general rule the guys were typically the "nicer" ones on the team, the ladies would feed you your own spleen (though exceptions do exist). I mean consider that one of Wildstorm's Heroines was Rose Tattoo, who is literally the spirit of murder given human form, she was an active duty member of both Stormwatch (under Bendix) and The Authority at various times. Trust me, Rose is worth a few million girls with guns acting like The Punisher. Of course then again you DO have "The Dirty Pair" which was published by Adam Warren under the DC label for a while if I remember (albeit in it's own universe), The Body Doubles (who have had their own book, even if they are villains a lot of the time... they were created by Dan Abnett in fact who did a lot if hardcore Warhammer 40k stuff like the Eisenhorn trilogy), and numerous others.
One thing to also understand when it comes to comics is that one problem a lot of people have also mentioned is that female characters rarely wind up being held responsible for their actions the way guys are as well. This is a big part of why so many female characters have been able to move back and forth so easily between the hero and villain label. For example "Harley Quinn" within the comics continuity has worn the hat of villain, anti-hero, and straight out hero at various times depending on her relationships at the moment (her arc is a bit different than the cartoon version, though it usually goes back to a familiar status quo for at least a while), Harley is a genius (despite how she acts) who has committed numerous acts of mass murder, and yet other than a few side comments about not entirely trusting her, on a few occasions it's otherwise been a comparatively easy transition at times, when logically it shouldn't be. Catwoman is another example, even though she doesn't kill many people, she steals, double crosses, and has left dangerous things in the hands of people out to do really bad stuff with them, and yet other than a few side comments, everyone seems more or less willing to just let her put on the white hat... I'm sure others can come up with other examples of the trope. In comparison a big part of what makes "The Punisher" what he is, is not just that he kills people (lots of characters in comics do that nowadays), but that the magnitude of what he does is not forgotten and taken more seriously at least in relation to him. Nobody likes, or trusts, the Punisher, and the odd things is he plays it "straight" by vigilante standards more than most heroes, he's not a deep guy, and that can in some respects be an advantage. Indeed during "The Secret War" when his alliance with Cap falls apart due to The Punisher not being willing to forgive villains due to the situation of the moment, part of that is pretty much that Frank very much stays on mission and doesn't compromise. As a general rule, to do a female punisher, you need more than a girl who kills people, you need a girl who kills people, and for whatever reason is held unusually accountable for the deaths by other characters, and generally gets crap for it (sometimes hypocritically when dealing with other lethal heroes). As a general rule the only female character off the top of my head that seems to ever be held accountable for anything, and have it stick/taken seriously other than a few comments is probably The Huntress.
Generally speaking though, I do not think a female Punisher would impress the people who "want it" as they would probably see it as being anti-feminist since the idea is pretty much to give the character crap, and view it through the eyes of standards that might be "realistic" but oddly might not exist (or be mentioned/harped on) with any other character in that universe. The Punisher is basically Mack Bolan (old character from vigilante action novels) in a super hero world, meant to draw a parallel, a character who oddly isn't as relevant as he once was as the standard he acted as a counterpart to ("realistic" action hero/vigilante in a world of super-heroes with exaggerated codes of ethics) no longer exists to the same extent as almost every character out there has had some kind of "darker, grittier reboot"
over the last few years. If you just want a female character who acts like a hardcase (but does the right thing) and kills lots of really bad people, oftentimes in alarming ways, there have been plenty of those out there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catman_(comics)
Oh and if you pay attention he's been around since the 1960s, and the writers have defined him as bi-sexual (since the comments about homophobia were int he article).
The big question is whether or not Catman could carry his own book, or otherwise see more frequent use, I'm not sure about that to be honest. All political arguments for it aside, he's a character that works best when he's not overused nowadays as I pointed out.
-
The She-Punisher also existed, as a limited "what if" at one point if I remember but I don't remember much about it. Punisher 2099 also featured a renegade "pleasure doll" (shades of Blade Runner) called "Vendetta" who became his partner, she covered a lot of the same territory.
To be honest with you though, I don't think there is a problem with women in comics being too "soft, nice, and submissive" for the most part, and it hasn't been an issue for a long time. Indeed it's become something of a trope/ongoing joke that a lot of sociopathic behavior gets ignored when perpetuated by women in comics, especially with creators who go out of their way to make them do the whole "hardass" thing. For example if you start going through the list of say female characters in "Wildstorm" which WAS a major imprint for a while, your going to run into characters like Zealot, Jenny Sparks, Maxine "Ladytron" Manchester (absolute psycho), Flint, The Engineer, Swift, Nemesis, and scads of others. One of the old comments about the general "Wildstorm" formula was that as a general rule the guys were typically the "nicer" ones on the team, the ladies would feed you your own spleen (though exceptions do exist). I mean consider that one of Wildstorm's Heroines was Rose Tattoo, who is literally the spirit of murder given human form, she was an active duty member of both Stormwatch (under Bendix) and The Authority at various times. Trust me, Rose is worth a few million girls with guns acting like The Punisher. Of course then again you DO have "The Dirty Pair" which was published by Adam Warren under the DC label for a while if I remember (albeit in it's own universe), The Body Doubles (who have had their own book, even if they are villains a lot of the time... they were created by Dan Abnett in fact who did a lot if hardcore Warhammer 40k stuff like the Eisenhorn trilogy), and numerous others.
One thing to also understand when it comes to comics is that one problem a lot of people have also mentioned is that female characters rarely wind up being held responsible for their actions the way guys are as well. This is a big part of why so many female characters have been able to move back and forth so easily between the hero and villain label. For example "Harley Quinn" within the comics continuity has worn the hat of villain, anti-hero, and straight out hero at various times depending on her relationships at the moment (her arc is a bit different than the cartoon version, though it usually goes back to a familiar status quo for at least a while), Harley is a genius (despite how she acts) who has committed numerous acts of mass murder, and yet other than a few side comments about not entirely trusting her, on a few occasions it's otherwise been a comparatively easy transition at times, when logically it shouldn't be. Catwoman is another example, even though she doesn't kill many people, she steals, double crosses, and has left dangerous things in the hands of people out to do really bad stuff with them, and yet other than a few side comments, everyone seems more or less willing to just let her put on the white hat... I'm sure others can come up with other examples of the trope. In comparison a big part of what makes "The Punisher" what he is, is not just that he kills people (lots of characters in comics do that nowadays), but that the magnitude of what he does is not forgotten and taken more seriously at least in relation to him. Nobody likes, or trusts, the Punisher, and the odd things is he plays it "straight" by vigilante standards more than most heroes, he's not a deep guy, and that can in some respects be an advantage. Indeed during "The Secret War" when his alliance with Cap falls apart due to The Punisher not being willing to forgive villains due to the situation of the moment, part of that is pretty much that Frank very much stays on mission and doesn't compromise. As a general rule, to do a female punisher, you need more than a girl who kills people, you need a girl who kills people, and for whatever reason is held unusually accountable for the deaths by other characters, and generally gets crap for it (sometimes hypocritically when dealing with other lethal heroes). As a general rule the only female character off the top of my head that seems to ever be held accountable for anything, and have it stick/taken seriously other than a few comments is probably The Huntress.
Generally speaking though, I do not think a female Punisher would impress the people who "want it" as they would probably see it as being anti-feminist since the idea is pretty much to give the character crap, and view it through the eyes of standards that might be "realistic" but oddly might not exist (or be mentioned/harped on) with any other character in that universe. The Punisher is basically Mack Bolan (old character from vigilante action novels) in a super hero world, meant to draw a parallel, a character who oddly isn't as relevant as he once was as the standard he acted as a counterpart to ("realistic" action hero/vigilante in a world of super-heroes with exaggerated codes of ethics) no longer exists to the same extent as almost every character out there has had some kind of "darker, grittier reboot"
over the last few years. If you just want a female character who acts like a hardcase (but does the right thing) and kills lots of really bad people, oftentimes in alarming ways, there have been plenty of those out there.
Women killers not being held accountable...I've never thought about that but you're absolutely right. Thanks for the enlightenment.Therumancer said:
There is a female Ghost Rider.2xDouble said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Rider_(comics)#Alejandra
OT: In asking for gender-swapped characters and all of the requests for them being male-to-female, I'd just like to say I don't think people understand why they are asking for it. Ever since this has gotten started, people have done nothing but shown their ignorance lack of knowledge of the female characters that already exist in fiction, bad-ass and otherwise.
Want a female batman? there are four of them with a bunch of wannabees as well. Want a female superman? Two to too many of those. Want a female spiderman? There are three, no wait, four. Comic books are like a college campus, the guys are way outnumbered by the ladies. I wonder how many of you have heard of "Hack/Slash"? If all of you rule 63 enthusiasts are actually looking for a heroic bad-ass woman, well look no further than this.
You know what they should do? They should gender-swap Thor. That would be amazing. Also, they should let Whoopi Goldberg announce it.