The things we like are just "things"

[Lilikins]

Mind you, Ill go into the gaming area for this one...my s.o. loves to play games...one of her favorite games series up to date is Dead Space. She doesnt care about the history of it...nor does she care about the setting in particular, she just found it fun to run around and nuke 'zombies'...haha.
Its much like that with shows aswell, she'll watch something and get totally engrossed in the plot..and wants to know as much about it as possible.
(this was to show a difference of interest, sorry if it comes across as confusing)

Getting back to your X-Men thing...if your interested in it..awesome, go for it. The guy 'shrugging' it off behind the counter...screw him seriously. Im not white knighting anything here, but seriously...if I were to wear that 'Ice King' T-shirt from Adventure Time (Ive never seen the show...please dont stone me...) because I liked the look of the character? why should anyone care? If someone were to look at it...its really like anything else...if I want to wear an Ed Hardy T-shirt cause I like the design..Ill be damned before I let someone tell me that I cant because Im not into that specific 'scene'..if I like it..I wear it..no discussion for me.

Long story short, do whatever you enjoy...read what you want, wear what you want, watch what you want..etc etc.. (you get the point) if someone really has the time to bash you for it...and give up reasons why you cant...you can look at them and ask them if they have nothing better to do with their time.

Edit: Added a line to put in some clarity so no one gets confused

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

Whilst I've never done that sort of thing (real life and on here), I still acknowledge that there are casual and hardcore gamers.

Both definitions are loose, but a casual is someone who plays yearly franchises and nothing else. Someone who sees gaming as a cheap thrill and nothing beyond that.

I understand that people should not get too zealous over games, or any other such hobby but I'd find it hard to classify anything as just "a thing". I try to take something away from all media that I consume, like a message or the like(if I liked it, that is). At that point, it does elevate it higher than just an indulgence.

I mean, sports is just a "thing", but people get pretty violent over the turnouts of matches, and in large numbers.

It could be that I am predisposed to take games quite personally, because I retreated to them in times of stress during my secondary school years, which on reflection, were worse and worse the more I think about them(not to the point of delusion, mind, I had a limit past which, when stressed, nothing could really help besides direct resolution or contemplation).

I'd still never exclude someone from conversation or actively shun/make a joke at their expense because they're a casual gamer, I'd just wouldn't use the topic of games to stimulate discussion around them. But again, that'd be more because I enjoy talking to people about stuff they're passionate or interested about, because I enjoy good discussion. It wouldn't be because I happen to dislike their tastes in media.

I'm also going to leave these two videos here, because they are relevant to the discussion of "are we taking things too seriously?"(The first moreso than the second, which only hints at it)

 

[Redd the Sock]

He's not threatened by the person using the skilift. He's threatened by the possibility of the skilift becoming mandatory, and not being able to climb the mountain in the future. Nobody minds if someone plays 'casual' games, but if gaming undergoes this 'casualization', it creates a massive shortage of harder, more fun, and more interesting kinds of games. This is a very real threat (although, 'causal gamers' aren't really to blame), and it's already happening, it's been happening for years. Most modern games hold your hand and don't give you a choice about it, and if your hobby is playing games that aren't like that, then you're kind of starving on it at the moment, and it will only get worse from here.

Not really. What I fear is the concept of effort being dismissed or vilified. That the guy on the lift looks at the climber like the climber has problems for not taking the lift, because there's no value whatsoever in climbing the mountain by hand, only reaching the top.

 

[Ten Foot Bunny]

Sadly, this kind of situation happens in almost every stereotypical "man space." I've never stepped foot in a comic book store, but I duck into music stores every chance I get to check out new guitars, look at soundboards, play drums, all of it.

When I'd go to those stores with my guy friends, employees would come up to us and show us things, speaking in tones that one uses in adult conversation. However, the one and only time I went to a music store with one of my girlfriends (no guy with us) we moved around like ghosts for 45 minutes. Literally not a single employee came to see how we were doing.

Going into a music store solo as a woman is hit-or-miss, but predominantly miss. It doesn't even matter how I look when I go (I have tons of "scene" clothes, for lack of a better term) the result is always the same: I might get a nod from an employee or two as they're passing by to help out some dude who looks like Jimmy Buffett, Dave Grohl, or Dimebag Darrell. When the employees DO speak, their voices betray an assumption that I don't know my ass from a splash cymbal.

We women CAN achieve some cred in those places, but we have to prove ourselves above and beyond what would be expected of any guy just to earn a modicum of the same respect.

I eventually won over an entire music store and got all the employees to wait on me hand-and-foot. Know what it took to do that? One day, an employee saw me playing a guitar as he passed through the acoustic room checking on the customers. About half an hour later, he came back through and I was the only one still in there. As he was about to leave, he stopped, swung back around, and asked, "Were you playing left-handed earlier?" I told him no, put down the lefty guitar I was playing, picked up a right-handed guitar right next to me, and started playing the same song right where I'd left off on the other guitar. Fifteen minutes later, it was obvious that the entire store heard about me because everyone's tone was VERY different.

So, yeah! Often times, we women have to do what over 95% of guys can't do in order to be seen as more than pair of tits on legs who dropped in to lower men's collective IQs. In my case, the boys noticed that I could play equally well on left- and right-handed guitars, and that's what it took. It's not like I played more skillfully than I did before they noticed, but I had to blow their minds (hey, watch it!) to get any attention in their manly domain.

 

[Angelous Wang]

The reason for all of this type of behaviour is ego pure and simply.

People want to feel like the superior special snowflakes they all think they are, and the easiest way to get that feeling is put someone else down and make them seem inferior to you.

Sexism and Racism were born form this.

And the truth is almost every human has done this at some point in their life, hell even the most pious Amish people do this when they look down at people for not living their life "as god would want".

I'm sure everyone in this thread has done it, including myself. Sure we may not done it in such a "big" way but we all do it in "small" ways, just like in the OP where you talk about looking down at people for liking the Wii.

And it's not going to go away or stop, baring mass genetic brain engineering to remove the ego part of the brains from the human race.

Because unfortunately this is normal human behaviour. Just like killing and eating animals, it might not be moral or right, but it is normal.

 

[AngloDoom]

It's wrong, of course, there's no way of arguing against it.

At the same time, though, it's not going to change until attitudes towards gaming in general change: i.e. that's it's a boys-only club. I have full confidence that this will change and you're right to challenge people when they maintain stereotypes like this, but I'm certain it'll change.

It's like all stereotypes; whenever I wear my contact lenses then I get people offering me drugs, people ask me what instrument I play and people assume I'm irresponsible - when I wear my glasses people assume I'm into computers, ask for my help fixing electronic equipment and seem much more ready to offer me a job than when I don't have glasses (regardless of hair length).

We're human, we like to stick things into nice little boxes so the world is that much easier to handle; if someone puts you into one of those boxes you don't below to, feel free to remind them (nicely) that that's not you - if enough people do it then they'll have to reassess their views.

 

[Zombie Badger]

To quote Roger Ebert, "The purpose of a cult is exclusion. If you're not in the cult, you are by definition lacking some essential quality shared by its members. Those inside the cult can feel privileged, even gifted, by their ability to Get It." People just like to make themselves feel special.

 

[DarthFennec]

The problem with this sort of analogy is that it assumes that the people who are defensive of their interests are always targeting the right people. More often than not they aren't, wherein lies the problem.

So, imagine you're in a conversation with your friends, talking about something you all enjoy, but every time you speak, they just scoff and act like you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

---

You know, the message I seem to be getting in these types of threads is that we should feel sorry for people who are overly insecure about fakes and casuals. Why? They're mostly just reactionary jerks jumping at casual-shaped shadows.

No, I completely agree with you. I'm not saying we should feel sorry for those people or that they're doing the right thing. If they did always target the right people that would be one thing, but the fact that they're not makes them reactionary jerks. Still, it's important to understand that they have a reason for doing what they're doing. It's the difference between being a jerk because you make mistakes and don't think much about the consequences (or don't recognize that there are any), and being a jerk because you like to be an asshole for no reason.

 

[DarthFennec]

Not really. What I fear is the concept of effort being dismissed or vilified. That the guy on the lift looks at the climber like the climber has problems for not taking the lift, because there's no value whatsoever in climbing the mountain by hand, only reaching the top.

... wait, why? What do you care what the guy on the lift thinks? He's just a guy, his opinion doesn't matter. Also, there will always be people looking at both the climber and the lift-taker like they have problems for wanting anything to do with the mountain in the first place. Do you fear their opinions too?

As long as there is at least one other person who recognizes the value in what you're doing, the opinions of the rest shouldn't bother you. If they do, you likely have some self-esteem issues to work out.

 

[Terminal Blue]

He's not threatened by the person using the skilift. He's threatened by the possibility of the skilift becoming mandatory, and not being able to climb the mountain in the future. Nobody minds if someone plays 'casual' games, but if gaming undergoes this 'casualization', it creates a massive shortage of harder, more fun, and more interesting kinds of games.

Umm.. no it doesn't.

The irony is that "hardcore" gaming is more catered to and more heavily marketed now than it ever was in the past. In the past games were hard because they wanted you to spend money in an arcade, or to drag out the playime, or else they weren't actually hard at all.. they were just poorly designed or inscrutable or full of arbitrary rubbish which no human being could hope to figure out. They weren't marketing hardness as a quality, they didn't care about how skilled or accomplished you felt. They were doing it to compensate for failures in the game, or just out of some crazy personal bat logic.

Nowadays. We have games being specifically developed and marketed as challenging or competitive. We have revivals of genres like roguelikes and hardcore platformers, we have incomprehensibly complex grand strategy games, we have high level MMO raiding, we have competative online multiplayer on virtually everything, we have "iron man", we have achievement hunting, we have games which can teach you about orbital mechanics or how to play the guitar.

It seems to me that the only way you could have reached this conclusion is by using the most lazy, most "casual" methods possible, by looking at the endless parade of drivel pushed out by the AAA gaming industry or the endless furor pushed out by games media and thus concluding that yes, this means that games as a medium have become 'casualized' or less fun.

Not really. What I fear is the concept of effort being dismissed or vilified. That the guy on the lift looks at the climber like the climber has problems for not taking the lift, because there's no value whatsoever in climbing the mountain by hand, only reaching the top.

Actually. There's no value in either.

Unless you're climbing Mount Sinai and God himself is waiting for you at the top it ultimately doesn't matter if you climb a mountain or not. There is no inherent value in any recreational pursuit, it only becomes important if it matters to you.

If you aren't secure enough to find value in what you do. If you need everyone else to fawn over you for it then simply don't do it. It's clearly a waste of your time.

Because recreation isn't about achievement, it's about using your time on earth in a way which gives you enjoyment or satisfaction. If the satisfaction of knowing you beat that mountain without just taking the lift is not enough for you, then why the hell are you trying to do it? This is the one area of your life where the only reason to do something is because you enjoy it.

 

[Frission]

Hobbies should be something to be enjoyed. People who play games haven't gotten to the level of starting riots that kill 80 people like Football fans did in Belgium, but it's still wasteful to just discriminate against other people getting into your hobby.

 

[DarthFennec]

Nowadays. We have games being specifically developed and marketed as challenging.

Exactly. And there would be no need for that sort of thing if games in general were challenging in the first place. The reason old games didn't market hardness as a quality is because the majority of them had that quality anyway, for one reason or another, so it was just an assumed thing. Now that most games hold your hand and tell you exactly what to do at all times, and are designed with perfect difficulty curves, and other things that make them boringly easy, there's a particular market for more difficult games. I agree that this market will always exist, but it will likely continue to become more and more limited in the scope of its entries (it certainly has become very limited already).

We have revivals of genres like roguelikes and hardcore platformers, we have incomprehensibly complex grand strategy games, we have high level MMO raiding, we have competative online multiplayer on virtually everything, we have "iron man", we have achievement hunting, we have games which can teach you about orbital mechanics or how to play the guitar.

All of these kinds of games only represent a small minority though, and these genres are very specific and are only interesting to small sections of gamers. Multiplayer games and modes don't count anyway, because the games themselves aren't intrinsically challenging, the level of challenge is entirely dependent on who you're playing with. And anyway, none of those are examples of difficult games, you just listed off a bunch of genres, almost all of which have generally gotten easier and more casual-friendly over time (just like every other genre). Maybe not to the same extent, but that's not the point. Also, achievements are generally optional, and they're generally not difficult to get, they're just time consuming. And games like Kerbal aren't difficult. That has nothing to do with the conversation.

It seems to me that the only way you could have reached this conclusion is by using the most lazy, most "casual" methods possible, by looking at the endless parade of drivel pushed out by the AAA gaming industry or the endless furor pushed out by games media and thus concluding that yes, this means that games as a medium have become 'casualized' or less fun.

If the AAA 'drivel' is 'endless', then it must represent a majority of modern games, no? So, if the majority of games have become 'casualized' (as you yourself claim here), wouldn't that directly mean that the medium in general also has become so? But it's not only that. I do recognize the other half of the industry, the independent market. And while I do agree that more interesting games come from there, because they can afford to take more risks, I would point out that they also have much smaller budgets, which leads to much smaller games. They can usually only afford to focus on one thing, and that one thing is usually not a high difficulty. Ninety percent of the independent games I know of are 'arthousey' experience games that focus on an interesting design aspect, and tend to be very short and easy to play through.

I reached the conclusion of 'casualization' by recognizing that all the games that I play, belonging to the franchises and genres that I care about, are much less difficult now than they were when I used to play them, and by hearing similar stories from all other corners of the gaming world. I think this is clearly where the industry is heading, and I attribute that to modern advances in both game design and hardware, as well as the general social acceptance of video games. I don't think this has anything to do with 'casual gamers complaining about games being hard' or whatever, like most people seem to. Still, it comes to the same thing: games are getting easier, and for that reason I find myself reaching for older, more familiar titles more and more, and I don't know if I like that.

 

[Erttheking]

And being a geek does require a certain kind of lifestyle and sacrifice in the past, and now the mainstream culture is deciding that it wants to pick up the toys they used to bully people for.

Ah yes, I remember the time I was bullied for liking video games...oh wait, no I don't, in fact everyone at my school played video games, and I've been playing video games since I was three. It's elitism, pure and simple. Don't try and pretty it up. Nerds are not some heroic oppressed minority, and I find it rather laughable that apparently some nerds resent women for the crap they put them through. Because women never had to put up with any crap.

And riddle me this. If people were bullied and now are lashing out at people for trying to get into "their" hobby, then congratulations to them, they are officially no better than the people who once bullied them. They have become a bunch of assholes because they cannot let go of childhood grudges. And riddle me this. Why should I tolerate people as narrow minded as that tainting my hobby by giving it a "NO GIRLZ ALLOWED" image? I'd rather gaming be treated with more respect than something only for immature manchildren who can't share.

 

[Redd the Sock]

Not really. What I fear is the concept of effort being dismissed or vilified. That the guy on the lift looks at the climber like the climber has problems for not taking the lift, because there's no value whatsoever in climbing the mountain by hand, only reaching the top.

... wait, why? What do you care what the guy on the lift thinks? He's just a guy, his opinion doesn't matter. Also, there will always be people looking at both the climber and the lift-taker like they have problems for wanting anything to do with the mountain in the first place. Do you fear their opinions too?

As long as there is at least one other person who recognizes the value in what you're doing, the opinions of the rest shouldn't bother you. If they do, you likely have some self-esteem issues to work out.

I general don't care what people think of me, but I do know that things can run very poorly when one doesn't respect the effort that goes into things. Imagine people wanting a new lift that had thought climbing skills were unimportant, now with no way to reach the mountain top to build the lift. Now imagine we want to delve into the history of the X-Men, but because we all didn't think it was important enough to take seriously, no one bothered to archive anything or even write a decent wikipedia page, or want a cool mod for skyrim, but no one had the patience to try their hand at coding.

That's the way I see not just nerd hobbies, but much of the world. People casually want to take part, but it's the hardcore that build, maintain, catalog, and remember these things. Just the fact that if you enjoy things through the efforts of others (be it a developed video game industry or just the food on your table) you should be somewhat respectful as a measure of politeness should be enough, the fact is if you want more of it, you have to encourage it. You want a clean floor, you thank the janitor. You want food you thank the framer, the delivery man, the grocer and the cook.You want your computer to work, you respect the tech support guy. You want these hobbies to be as developed as the are, you should respect those whose efforts or even desires made it happen. You don't diminish their efforts.

 

[Eamar]

Now imagine we want to delve into the history of the X-Men, but because we all didn't think it was important enough to take seriously, no one bothered to archive anything or even write a decent wikipedia page

Wait, since you're using this example, I really hope you're not inferring that the woman in the OP must have been a "casual". We have no way of knowing that, and nor did the asshole shop assistant - for all we know she could already be a hardcore fan of other comics (say DC, or perhaps more independent stuff) who just wants to try something different. Or perhaps she's a "hardcore" nerd in other ways who just never got into comics as a kid. The assumption that women can only be "casual" nerds is precisely the problem several of us have been railing against.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

And being a geek does require a certain kind of lifestyle and sacrifice in the past, and now the mainstream culture is deciding that it wants to pick up the toys they used to bully people for.

I can't come up with a single instance of genuine hardship in my entire life. Not many friends? Sure. More than a little antisocial? Yeah. Actual hardship of any kind? No. And I wasn't just a nerd, I was also a baby, cuz I was Nintendo fanboy.

Now my life more or less completely revolves around anime...which is a bit funny to bring up here on The Escapist, since many (though hardly all) of the anime fans here are either too old so we don't share common interests or are shit casuals. Goddammit, if you haven't written an essay about the sexual politics of Kill la Kill then you're not a real Scotsman anime fan!

-

This is a bit tangential to the main topic, but why is it that nerds tend to put so much value in media while also refusing to accept that media has meaning or that it affects people? How can someone who builds their entire identity out of a brand say "It's not [problem]. It's just entertainment. Stop overanalyzing things."

 

[DarthFennec]

I general don't care what people think of me, but I do know that things can run very poorly when one doesn't respect the effort that goes into things. Imagine people wanting a new lift that had thought climbing skills were unimportant, now with no way to reach the mountain top to build the lift. Now imagine we want to delve into the history of the X-Men, but because we all didn't think it was important enough to take seriously, no one bothered to archive anything or even write a decent wikipedia page, or want a cool mod for skyrim, but no one had the patience to try their hand at coding.

That's the way I see not just nerd hobbies, but much of the world. People casually want to take part, but it's the hardcore that build, maintain, catalog, and remember these things. Just the fact that if you enjoy things through the efforts of others (be it a developed video game industry or just the food on your table) you should be somewhat respectful as a measure of politeness should be enough, the fact is if you want more of it, you have to encourage it. You want a clean floor, you thank the janitor. You want food you thank the framer, the delivery man, the grocer and the cook.You want your computer to work, you respect the tech support guy. You want these hobbies to be as developed as the are, you should respect those whose efforts or even desires made it happen. You don't diminish their efforts.

So, you're not afraid of what these people think, but you're afraid that their point of view will become the dominant one, and that this will get in the way of your own personal experience of the hobby?

... so, basically what I already said?

Also, there will always be at least a few nerds to create and document and etc. And if there are literally no people to do that stuff, what would make the world ever want to go back and look at that information? Who would know about it to begin with, and who would care? Also, people already do respect those people ... maybe not the wiki editors, but certainly the people who wrote the comic books and made the movies and released the games. If they didn't respect those people, they wouldn't be giving them money.

If people who don't value climbing skills want a new lift, the ski resort will pay the people who do value those skills to put it in. Simple as that.

 

[Phasmal]

I general don't care what people think of me, but I do know that things can run very poorly when one doesn't respect the effort that goes into things. Imagine people wanting a new lift that had thought climbing skills were unimportant, now with no way to reach the mountain top to build the lift. Now imagine we want to delve into the history of the X-Men, but because we all didn't think it was important enough to take seriously, no one bothered to archive anything or even write a decent wikipedia page, or want a cool mod for skyrim, but no one had the patience to try their hand at coding.

Actually, respect for effort has very little to do with things working.
My plane wont fall out of the sky if I don't mentally thank those who built it.

Your argument seems pretty redundant. Yeah, we'd be screwed if that happens- but it doesn't.

People are quite plainly able to enjoy things at different levels. You personally can have more respect for the `hardcores` of life, but it really doesn't matter if other people do not.

 

[Redd the Sock]

Now imagine we want to delve into the history of the X-Men, but because we all didn't think it was important enough to take seriously, no one bothered to archive anything or even write a decent wikipedia page

Wait, since you're using this example, I really hope you're not inferring that the woman in the OP must have been a "casual". We have no way of knowing that, and nor did the asshole shop assistant - for all we know she could already be a hardcore fan of other comics (say DC, or perhaps more independent stuff) who just wants to try something different. Or perhaps she's a "hardcore" nerd in other ways who just never got into comics as a kid. The assumption that women can only be "casual" nerds is precisely the problem several of us have been railing against.

I said in my first post that there is unfair stereotyping that happens and that no, that isn't right. I've been trying to avoid the initial incident for this conversation because no one disagrees the guy was being an ass. It's just, for me at least, I never see this conversation stop with how the guy shouldn't be an ass, and instead derail into how nerds need to lighten up, need to not get self esteem from thing things we'd been getting self esteem from, and other attitudes that take an asshole as a jumping off point for attacking the idea of taking a hobby seriously, which to me has always rang hypocritical: don't you judge me for how I pursue a hobby, now let me pass judgement on you for how you do it (with the same level of stereotyping of your group that the asshole did unto ours).

Attack assholes all you want, but the topic wasn't much about that asshole, but about stereotyping and finding some self serving thing to blame for it.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Let's try a different response: society just doesn't value nerdy skills so it has no problem trying to devalue them as "unimportant" even as it faces he prospect of being either unable or unwilling to meet them.

Society does value nerd skills. A lawyer is just a professional nerd about law - they obsess about details that the rest of the world ignores. A doctor is a medical nerd. An engineer is a math nerd. This goes on and on but it might be simpler to put it another way. Society only cares about what you can offer it. If you devote nerd energy to memorizing things about Star Wars you are going to have a very hard time demonstrating how that is useful to society at large.

We respect athletics so of course the guy that used a lift to reach a mountain top wouldn't dream of claiming they were as much a mountain climber as someone that went up by hand, or the weekend golfer wouldn't think (seriously) they were on par with someone on the PGA and claim elitism if they were kept out.

Respect for athletics is broadly derived from the simple fact that achievements there are often the result of years or even decades of commitment to a course full of physical and emotional suffering. That makes it visceral. You might not have run a marathon but you've probably run until it hurts at least once and can rightly intuit that a person who has run a marathon must have suffered greatly. The achievement isn't the important part of athleticism - it's the brutal road it took to get there.

This is why you'll find that even when it comes to physical endeavors not everything reaches the same level of acclaim. Climbing a mountain is quite obviously dangerous and difficult and thus it's most famous exemplars receive wide acclaim outside of their community. Once every few years the world stops and watches people run very fast or dance with otherworldy grace and we marvel both at the achievement but perhaps more importantly at the implied or told story about how that athlete made it to the world stage. These people are respected because they suffered greatly for their craft and even though that craft is useless to the world it makes you stop and think maybe you can do that thing you've been putting off. Thus these athletes gain their acclaim because they indirectly offered the world something: they give out inspiration. But then there are bowlers, or pool players or dart throwers or golfers and we find that while they might be respected if they are at the very peak of their profession they do not achieve the same level of regard. And here it is simple enough to see why: these are people who do things other people do for fun - at best the only thing they offer the world is a chance to rub the fact that they literally play games for a living in all the faces. Ultimately being really good at playing a game is still just playing a game. The work it took to get there is no longer obvious; it doesn't hold a hot knife to your soul and dare you to try something hard.

But nerd hobbies are "unimportant and unvalued" so it's perfectly okay to disrespect efforts put into them, and turn around the elitism by claiming that, no, the nerds are now really the ones doing it wrong because they should only find self esteem in things society at larges thinks are important.

Where you find your self esteem is your business. If you want the world to care about you, you have to do something that the world wants or needs. Doing nerd things for your own amusement is fine - just don't expect the world to stop and wonder. And if you try and stand up and shout and scream that the world ought to care then you'd better have a hell of a show planned because, if not, what have you done but wasted the world's time? What right would you then have to take offense if the world responded with withering commentary when you interrupted them with nothing to sell and nothing to show?