The Vietnam War

[shadowstriker86]

It makes me so mad when I here people saying that this was a meaningless war. But in all actuallity it totally wasn't. We were fighting to stop the spread of communism, and to promote democracy. Also even if we shouldn't have been there in the first place we should have at least stayed to finish the job. Any comments?

Funny that you say that cause thats what Nixon tried to do. Little do people know that him and Henry Kissinger were playing good cop/bad cop. Kissinger went to the Vietnamese and told them that Nixon's gonna go nuts and bomb the living crap out of everything, and indeed a bunch of carpet bombings were happening when Nixon went to China to open up relations and soon after a treaty was being drafted but before it was signed Nixon got impeached thanks to G. Gordon Liddy and then we were stuck in Vietnam for another 2 years before pulling out. It's the same thing with Carter and Reagan. As soon as as that wussy Carter left office and Reagan went in, the hostages in the middle east were set free. Why? Cause you DO NOT MESS WITH PSYCHOTIC PRESIDENTS!

 

[vede]

Just so you know, communism does not mean dictatorship.

Dictatorship means dictatorship. It is a system of government.

Communism means society without social classes (upper class, lower class, etc.). It is a system of economy.

You can have democratic communism, or dictatorial communism.

As for my opinion on stopping the rise of a dictator, I'm all for it.

Stopping communism? I think we should embrace communism.

Unfortunately, we wanted to stop communism (for no real reason at all other than the fact that we weren't communistic), not a dictator.

 

[Abedeus]

That was was a living hell.

They didn't.... didn't have... LOG RIDES!! They only had those stupid throw-a-ball games nobody likes :[

We were fighting ... to promote democracy.

I just realised how much I actually hate this line and find it ironic. Democracy shouldn't come from the barrel of a gun.

Oh, uh, yes, uhm, no, yeah, nooo. You know that democracy with even a ton of TNT is better than communism? Trust me.

Just so you know, communism does not mean dictatorship.

Dictatorship means dictatorship. It is a system of government.

Communism means society without social classes (upper class, lower class, etc.). It is a system of economy.

You can have democratic communism, or dictatorial communism.

As for my opinion on stopping the rise of a dictator, I'm all for it.

Stopping communism? I think we should embrace communism.

Unfortunately, we wanted to stop communism (for no real reason at all other than the fact that we weren't communistic), not a dictator.

Ho ho ho, you made so many mistakes I don't know where to begin.

Communism is a fool's paradise. Never, ever, a communistic country was equal to everyone. Okay, my bad - it sucked equally for every low to medium class citizen.

On the top, there is a "acting president" who might as well be called a dictator. But if you say it loud, you get killed.

Democratic communism? Really? You know, that saying that it's hard to give up on power once you taste it? They will rig every single election you hold, manipulate or change votes. You know, there was a vote in Poland over a piece of area. Poles could vote and native people. You know what the communists did, to make sure they win? They brought 2 millions of people to Poland just so they can vote. It was a long time, but most of the people remember that dirty trick.

Embracing the communism? Are you one of the people that said "The Russians saved you from Germans"? No? Hmm, must be someone with the same mindset. Communism is ALWAYS full of oppression, suffering, poverty and.. okay, not poverty. You had some cash, that's true. But you had no ITEMS to buy. So everyone received tickets for food, meat and water, you went to a store to wait in a 2-3 hour line, and then buy just enough to survive the week.

And then they enforced martial law. Not to mention hundreds of people died in protests and strikes during their regim. Would something like that happen in democracy? I doubt it.

 

[PurpleRain]

Just so you know, communism does not mean dictatorship.

Dictatorship means dictatorship. It is a system of government.

Communism means society without social classes (upper class, lower class, etc.). It is a system of economy.

You can have democratic communism, or dictatorial communism.

As for my opinion on stopping the rise of a dictator, I'm all for it.

Stopping communism? I think we should embrace communism.

Unfortunately, we wanted to stop communism (for no real reason at all other than the fact that we weren't communistic), not a dictator.

Spoiler: snip

Ho ho ho, you made so many mistakes I don't know where to begin.

Communism is a fool's paradise. Never, ever, a communistic country was equal to everyone. Okay, my bad - it sucked equally for every low to medium class citizen.

On the top, there is a "acting president" who might as well be called a dictator. But if you say it loud, you get killed.

Democratic communism? Really? You know, that saying that it's hard to give up on power once you taste it? They will rig every single election you hold, manipulate or change votes. You know, there was a vote in Poland over a piece of area. Poles could vote and native people. You know what the communists did, to make sure they win? They brought 2 millions of people to Poland just so they can vote. It was a long time, but most of the people remember that dirty trick.

Embracing the communism? Are you one of the people that said "The Russians saved you from Germans"? No? Hmm, must be someone with the same mindset. Communism is ALWAYS full of oppression, suffering, poverty and.. okay, not poverty. You had some cash, that's true. But you had no ITEMS to buy. So everyone received tickets for food, meat and water, you went to a store to wait in a 2-3 hour line, and then buy just enough to survive the week.

And then they enforced martial law. Not to mention hundreds of people died in protests and strikes during their regim. Would something like that happen in democracy? I doubt it.

I think vdgmprgrmr was right. You're describing a facist iron fisted rule. You know, dictatorship has a bad rep now days. In ancient Greece, people loved it, and it was generally fair and just. I wouldn't use a dictatorship in todays world though. I'm just putting it out there.

Look, I can see you're very anti-communism, but you don't seem to be making any points, rather building a good yarn. Like vdgmprgrmr said, you can have a democratic communism.

But I like socilism. Woot!

 

[vede]

That was was a living hell.

They didn't.... didn't have... LOG RIDES!! They only had those stupid throw-a-ball games nobody likes :[

We were fighting ... to promote democracy.

I just realised how much I actually hate this line and find it ironic. Democracy shouldn't come from the barrel of a gun.

Oh, uh, yes, uhm, no, yeah, nooo. You know that democracy with even a ton of TNT is better than communism? Trust me.

Just so you know, communism does not mean dictatorship.

Dictatorship means dictatorship. It is a system of government.

Communism means society without social classes (upper class, lower class, etc.). It is a system of economy.

You can have democratic communism, or dictatorial communism.

As for my opinion on stopping the rise of a dictator, I'm all for it.

Stopping communism? I think we should embrace communism.

Unfortunately, we wanted to stop communism (for no real reason at all other than the fact that we weren't communistic), not a dictator.

Ho ho ho, you made so many mistakes I don't know where to begin.

Communism is a fool's paradise. Never, ever, a communistic country was equal to everyone. Okay, my bad - it sucked equally for every low to medium class citizen.

On the top, there is a "acting president" who might as well be called a dictator. But if you say it loud, you get killed.

Democratic communism? Really? You know, that saying that it's hard to give up on power once you taste it? They will rig every single election you hold, manipulate or change votes. You know, there was a vote in Poland over a piece of area. Poles could vote and native people. You know what the communists did, to make sure they win? They brought 2 millions of people to Poland just so they can vote. It was a long time, but most of the people remember that dirty trick.

Embracing the communism? Are you one of the people that said "The Russians saved you from Germans"? No? Hmm, must be someone with the same mindset. Communism is ALWAYS full of oppression, suffering, poverty and.. okay, not poverty. You had some cash, that's true. But you had no ITEMS to buy. So everyone received tickets for food, meat and water, you went to a store to wait in a 2-3 hour line, and then buy just enough to survive the week.

And then they enforced martial law. Not to mention hundreds of people died in protests and strikes during their regim. Would something like that happen in democracy? I doubt it.

Ho ho ho! You know none of those things are actually part of communistic (regarding Marxism and Leninism, not Stalinism, and I'm unfortunately uninformed as to Maoist communism) theory? "Communism" means a society without social classes. Anything short of that, even if they call themselves "communistic," are not fully communistic. The same way "Democratic" means a system in which the people choose how they are governed, and anything short of that, even if they call themselves "democratic," are not fully democratic. (Meaning that America has only been a true democracy for about 90 years, as women only gained the right to vote in 1920.)

Do you really think that communists say, "Yes, I wish we could be communistic, then we could starve everyone and rig elections!" No, because that's not communism.

Also: I never said anyone had actually achieved full communism yet. I have some theories as to why no one has, and how it could be achieved, but that's not for this thread.

 

[hotacidbath]

The form of government established in the Constitution of the several united States is incompatible with foreign conquest. But our government as it now exists cannot get enough of it. I support the troops by bringing them back to their wives and mothers. I do not think the Vietnam policing action was worth fighting. I weep for the dead.

You summed up every single one of my opinions perfectly and stated them far better than I ever could.

 

[Abedeus]

Spoiler

That was was a living hell.

They didn't.... didn't have... LOG RIDES!! They only had those stupid throw-a-ball games nobody likes :[

We were fighting ... to promote democracy.

I just realised how much I actually hate this line and find it ironic. Democracy shouldn't come from the barrel of a gun.

Oh, uh, yes, uhm, no, yeah, nooo. You know that democracy with even a ton of TNT is better than communism? Trust me.

Just so you know, communism does not mean dictatorship.

Dictatorship means dictatorship. It is a system of government.

Communism means society without social classes (upper class, lower class, etc.). It is a system of economy.

You can have democratic communism, or dictatorial communism.

As for my opinion on stopping the rise of a dictator, I'm all for it.

Stopping communism? I think we should embrace communism.

Unfortunately, we wanted to stop communism (for no real reason at all other than the fact that we weren't communistic), not a dictator.

Ho ho ho, you made so many mistakes I don't know where to begin.

Communism is a fool's paradise. Never, ever, a communistic country was equal to everyone. Okay, my bad - it sucked equally for every low to medium class citizen.

On the top, there is a "acting president" who might as well be called a dictator. But if you say it loud, you get killed.

Democratic communism? Really? You know, that saying that it's hard to give up on power once you taste it? They will rig every single election you hold, manipulate or change votes. You know, there was a vote in Poland over a piece of area. Poles could vote and native people. You know what the communists did, to make sure they win? They brought 2 millions of people to Poland just so they can vote. It was a long time, but most of the people remember that dirty trick.

Embracing the communism? Are you one of the people that said "The Russians saved you from Germans"? No? Hmm, must be someone with the same mindset. Communism is ALWAYS full of oppression, suffering, poverty and.. okay, not poverty. You had some cash, that's true. But you had no ITEMS to buy. So everyone received tickets for food, meat and water, you went to a store to wait in a 2-3 hour line, and then buy just enough to survive the week.

And then they enforced martial law. Not to mention hundreds of people died in protests and strikes during their regim. Would something like that happen in democracy? I doubt it.

Ho ho ho! You know none of those things are actually part of communistic (regarding Marxism and Leninism, not Stalinism, and I'm unfortunately uninformed as to Maoist communism) theory? "Communism" means a society without social classes. Anything short of that, even if they call themselves "communistic," are not fully communistic. The same way "Democratic" means a system in which the people choose how they are governed, and anything short of that, even if they call themselves "democratic," are not fully democratic. (Meaning that America has only been a true democracy for about 90 years, as women only gained the right to vote in 1920.)

Do you really think that communists say, "Yes, I wish we could be communistic, then we could starve everyone and rig elections!" No, because that's not communism.

Also: I never said anyone had actually achieved full communism yet. I have some theories as to why no one has, and how it could be achieved, but that's not for this thread.

Show me a modern-days country that has communism and works.

Communism was a hell in Poland for over 50 years. You might as well want to start your own Utopia.

You know, it's a beautiful idea. But if everyone is equal, someone will still have to rule. And he will be above. Everyone else will be weaker politically than he is, EVERYONE, because they are all equal to each other. Except for one.

Please don't tell me what's "not communism" when my parents and grandparents lived in a communistic country.

 

[Lusperus]

This is where we started trying to eliminate things that could never be fully eliminated.

 

[vede]

Spoiler

That was was a living hell.

They didn't.... didn't have... LOG RIDES!! They only had those stupid throw-a-ball games nobody likes :[

We were fighting ... to promote democracy.

I just realised how much I actually hate this line and find it ironic. Democracy shouldn't come from the barrel of a gun.

Oh, uh, yes, uhm, no, yeah, nooo. You know that democracy with even a ton of TNT is better than communism? Trust me.

Just so you know, communism does not mean dictatorship.

Dictatorship means dictatorship. It is a system of government.

Communism means society without social classes (upper class, lower class, etc.). It is a system of economy.

You can have democratic communism, or dictatorial communism.

As for my opinion on stopping the rise of a dictator, I'm all for it.

Stopping communism? I think we should embrace communism.

Unfortunately, we wanted to stop communism (for no real reason at all other than the fact that we weren't communistic), not a dictator.

Ho ho ho, you made so many mistakes I don't know where to begin.

Communism is a fool's paradise. Never, ever, a communistic country was equal to everyone. Okay, my bad - it sucked equally for every low to medium class citizen.

On the top, there is a "acting president" who might as well be called a dictator. But if you say it loud, you get killed.

Democratic communism? Really? You know, that saying that it's hard to give up on power once you taste it? They will rig every single election you hold, manipulate or change votes. You know, there was a vote in Poland over a piece of area. Poles could vote and native people. You know what the communists did, to make sure they win? They brought 2 millions of people to Poland just so they can vote. It was a long time, but most of the people remember that dirty trick.

Embracing the communism? Are you one of the people that said "The Russians saved you from Germans"? No? Hmm, must be someone with the same mindset. Communism is ALWAYS full of oppression, suffering, poverty and.. okay, not poverty. You had some cash, that's true. But you had no ITEMS to buy. So everyone received tickets for food, meat and water, you went to a store to wait in a 2-3 hour line, and then buy just enough to survive the week.

And then they enforced martial law. Not to mention hundreds of people died in protests and strikes during their regim. Would something like that happen in democracy? I doubt it.

Ho ho ho! You know none of those things are actually part of communistic (regarding Marxism and Leninism, not Stalinism, and I'm unfortunately uninformed as to Maoist communism) theory? "Communism" means a society without social classes. Anything short of that, even if they call themselves "communistic," are not fully communistic. The same way "Democratic" means a system in which the people choose how they are governed, and anything short of that, even if they call themselves "democratic," are not fully democratic. (Meaning that America has only been a true democracy for about 90 years, as women only gained the right to vote in 1920.)

Do you really think that communists say, "Yes, I wish we could be communistic, then we could starve everyone and rig elections!" No, because that's not communism.

Also: I never said anyone had actually achieved full communism yet. I have some theories as to why no one has, and how it could be achieved, but that's not for this thread.

Show me a modern-days country that has communism and works.

Communism was a hell in Poland for over 50 years. You might as well want to start your own Utopia.

You know, it's a beautiful idea. But if everyone is equal, someone will still have to rule. And he will be above. Everyone else will be weaker politically than he is, EVERYONE, because they are all equal to each other. Except for one.

Please don't tell me what's "not communism" when my parents and grandparents lived in a communistic country.

"Show me... and works."

You missed one integral part of my post: "I never said it has been fully achieved."

"You know... except for one."

Actually, it's possible for a council to exist, based on a system of checks and balances that is much closer to the level of power that the people have. Not exactly equal, but much closer. And "closer" is all I really need, since in my theory of communism, slight (extremely slight, and primarily economically) inequality is necessary, in order to motivate people. I acknowledge that pure equality is an impossibility.

"Please don't... communistic country."

So, you're saying that because your grandparents lived in a country that called itself communistic, obviously that country was actually communistic. This argument has no substance. So say I were to go to a school that called itself "equieducational" (I just made that up, as an example), and the definition of "equieducational" is that they teach all sides of every topic (such as Intelligent Design alongside evolution). Now, say that school didn't actually do that. Are they still equieducational? Can I say that I went to an equieducational school? Does it change the definition of equieducational if they are the only school to say that they follow equieducational lesson plans, despite the fact that the concept of equieducation has been laid down clearly by some previous organization or person?

The answer is "no" on all parts. The same logic applies to your grandparents living in a country that called itself communistic. If the country didn't actually follow communistic policies, they weren't communistic.

Of course, the location of your grandparents' residence doesn't do anything to grant you any credibility anyway. If my grandfather fought in Vietnam, does that mean that I automatically know everything there is to know about Vietnam? No. Does it mean that I even know more about it than the average person, or am fit to tell you why we even entered into a war in Vietnam? Not in the slightest.

EDIT: And yes, I do want to start my own utopia. Doesn't everybody wish they could live in a utopia? (Unfortunately, what one person calls a utopia is another person's dystopia.)

 

[photog212]

Ok a few things I want to add to this discussion. (I'm tired and on a tight time frame so I'll try to post links later where applicable)

First, many although not all of the hippies who were spitting on returning vets were undercover federal agents trying to turn public opinion against the war movement. Chicago, DNC, 1968.

Secondly, you cannot win a war against an idea. Terrorism and communism are not tangible things like say Germany. The US has used this "War against (insert whatever we're hating on now here)" to justify countless terrible acts. Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Panama, Grenada, Iraq, Cambodia, Cuba, Wounded Knee, Afghanistan, and Vietnam. The Vietnam memorial on the mall is about 150m, if you used the same density for the vietnamese the memorial would be well over 9 miles long.

Third, no, shall we say, "Pure Communism" has existed outside of communes (get it) for hundreds of years. The Iriquois and Cherokee nations both implemented communism as a structure for their society and were possibly the last large societies to do so.

 

[photog212]

Also, here is an interesting perspective on the Vietnam war.

http://inmotion.magnumphotos.com/essay/warsgriffiths

 

[SilentHunter7]

The problem with Vietnam is that we let the politicians and the Generals in the Pentagon run the show. If our soldiers on the ground made the doctrine, and the commanders didn't have to worry about looking bad on the 6 o'clock news, Hanoi would've been ours within 2 years.

Actually the problem was going in in the first place. Something they don't teach you in high school history is that, while Ho Chi Minh was a communist, he was a fierce nationalist, and had no love for either China or Russia. It wasn't until we invaded that they allied with China. If we left them alone, yeah they would've 'fallen' to communism, but in the grand scheme of things, it wouldn't really do much strategically.

 

[The Infamous Scamola]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it was a meaningless war, you really think America went to war to stop the spread of Communism? No, they did it for the gun manufacturers and the miltary lobbys, it's was just to turn a profit.

 

[vede]

Third, no, shall we say, "Pure Communism" has existed outside of communes (get it) for hundreds of years. The Iriquois and Cherokee nations both implemented communism as a structure for their society and were possibly the last large societies to do so.

Photog is right. I mean, I wasn't actually intending to consider undeveloped (in a modern sense) societies in my debate, but yes, that's true. And actually, most tribal societies in the world use a form of communism (dictatorial communism, usually, but still communism) (thought they don't call themselves communists, the economic system is communistic). Everyone in the tribe puts their work into a central storage area, and it is used as needed by everyone in the tribe. Of course, doing this on a larger scale would get a bit more complex (and would be more compatible with democracy than smaller tribes, since more people means more differing opinions), but could still be done.

It has, though, never been achieved on a larger scale yet.

 

[The Infamous Scamola]

I dont understand how america fails to get that democracy doesnt work everywhere, its not for everyone.

Of course it's not for everyone, America loves democracy, but only for itself, that's why the good ol' U.S. of A. loves it's fascist dictators.

 

[Shycte]

The Vietnam war was another case of "white-mans burden" syndrome. The US saw communists and thought that it was their duty as the worlds own "big brother" to help those poor souls, be burning up the hole god damn country.

Vietnam was a early warning sign that USA should stay out of other people's conflicts. Looking at Iraq, I don't think they litsened.

 

[razer17]

well to be honest it was a useless war. america has no need to try and police the world. if they are communists let them be. its not that they were a threat
also it annoys me that americans always portray themselves as having won the war. no one wins a war, just one side loses less, and the side that lost less was vietnam.
on the other hand americans threw young soldiers into war, were they were traumatised and then they don't offer them the proper medical care etc. they ought to.
and those idiots who protests about soldier and abuse them, they are truly scum. whilst i dont agree with the war, that gives no right to abuse soldiers doing there job, trying to protect there country.

 

[stompy]

Actually the problem was going in in the first place. Something they don't teach you in high school history is that, while Ho Chi Minh was a communist, he was a fierce nationalist, and had no love for either China or Russia. It wasn't until we invaded that they allied with China. If we left them alone, yeah they would've 'fallen' to communism, but in the grand scheme of things, it wouldn't really do much strategically.

Like I said before, Vietnam, and Korea before, really sounded like battles for unification between a nation split up as war bounty, not part of the Domino Theory.

 

[Lord George]

It was useful in once sense, that it actually started to show the American people exactly what their government and army was doing over their and started off a very strong anti-war movement. A shame it didn't stop them doing the same thing all over again in Iraq.

 

[SpaceChick]

it was a meaningless war.Many people died on both side.Vietnam,my country, suffer alot.But,please,let it go.
[bad grammar]