the "Why didn't they just shoot Voldemort?" thread

[DoPo]

So the biggest issue you have in a world where elves, dragons, goblins, and griffins exist, people can fly, there are invisibility cloaks, ghosts exist, and magic is used on a daily basis, is that guns don't work in it?

No, the issue is that guns do work but are not even mentioned. No matter how magical your world is, a plothole is a plothole. Unless you're talking about Discworld sort of world, that is, in that case everything can be handwaved as "a wizard did it" or "a historey monk did it" or "the gods did it" or simply "because it's cool".

You know the saying - if the only tool in your story is magic, you tend to forget the existence of everything else. Imagine if in D&D the wizard says "OK, I don't have Levitate memorised today, there is no way we reach that " and everybody agrees...ignoring the fact that a ladder would have still worked just the same.

 

[SpikeyGirl]

Why don't they just use a Death Note?
Wrong fandom because wizards lack creativity.
Anyway, what about conjuring fast projectile bullets? No pesky mechanism that, depending on who's arguing, may or may not work in a magical environment.
If guns do work magic could make the bullets invisible and probably silence it!
Ultimate sniper time.

 

[Nyaoku]

The reason a gun would not work is that for a bullet to deal a fatal blow, it is required to rather hit a vital organ, poison the bloodstream, or cause significant shock/bleeding to kill. What many people do not take into account is that Voldemort is nothing but a physical manifestation of magic resembling his once-human form. He doesn't require a brain to think, a heart to beat, or anything like that. The body is just for appearance sake. Think of it like shooting a ghost. Maybe a magic/silver bullet would work though but not a regular gun.

 

[JoesshittyOs]

I always thought that was the underlying message with the books and just why the books were so good.

The Wizards were so disconnected from the real world, that they were in turn dooming themselves.

I think if you were to really want those questions answered in the real world, it would be "because they're stupid". And in reality, they are. The culture behind them is vaguely reminiscent of the gypsy culture (And I'm American, so sorry if the word 'gypsy' offends anyone). Style is more or less lost on them. The house you visit are generally cluttered and at the very least are mostly a few decades behind muggle life.

They are very much pretentious, and that is why they had a downfall. They view themselves higher, when in reality they are having problems that even the muggles fixed, and they didn't need magic to do that. They lived in terror of a dictator like cult leader thing that lived in hiding, with a pretty much absentee government. Hell, they even had means to discern who would be an asshole by which house they got put into when they were eleven, yet they never seemed to use that as a criteria for who got into the highest ranks of the government.

 

[irishda]

To all other escapists who are thinking of bringing the "common sense says..." into this thread:
This is FUCKING MAGIC. Common sense doesn't come into play at all. Ever. This is a book with kids chasing dragons on brooms while trolls and giants and centaurs and three headed dogs are all regularly recurring features. There's plenty of glaring plot holes within the context of the story that someone could point out without resorting to "Well why don't they just launch a cruise missile up his ass?" or "Just chop his hands and feet off so he can't hold a wand AND talk at the same time."

For instance, you could argue the stories are shitty because, in most of the books, usually the way to overcome the final obstacle is with something the kids learned that fucking semester. And the bad guys probably could've won if they had a copy of the syllabus. Rowling took the chekhov gun argument to the extreme.

You could argue the stories are shitty because Harry is usually saved by a deus ex machina he pulls out of his ass or pure dumb luck hurling him ass-first to victory. Every time he's stuck, you can bet someone's gonna be all "oh wait, I forgot I had this" or "Wait a minute, something just appeared."

You could even argue the stories are shitty because super awesome devices are never used for the right reasons because Rowling realized she wrote herself into a corner. Harry and his friends have a necklace that can teleport you through time itself and a room that has WHATEVER YOU WANT INSIDE OF IT. Yet they still can't manage to overwhelmingly crush Voldemort.

These are all perfectly valid reasons to argue why Harry Potter is a bad story. So please stop trying to interject real world sense into a fantastical narrative. Besides this movie already stole that ending:

 

[Casual Shinji]

Seeing as the concept of magic itself is handled as clumsy and clunky as it is in Harry Potter, I'm not surprised this slipped ol' J.K.'s mind.

 

[Shada67]

"But Harry spends a good amount of time in the real world. There really isn't a good reason for him not to at least consider, at least for a second "Why don't I just shoot him?"

Harry grew up in the UK, they outlawed guns ages ago. Why would he think about using a gun against Voldemort?

 

[michael87cn]

No one here read the books did they...

First of all... there are shield spells in the books that would deflect a bullet. (they are one-time casts that basically last, like a forcefield) Second.. the better wizards don't need to speak words, thinking the spell is good enough and they can react faster than you can pull a trigger...

So basically... why didn't people that could shoot lightning, teleport at will, and all that pick up a piece of metal containing gunpowder and try to kill the best wizard in the world with it? Because it wouldn't work you freaking genius.

Also, its NOT FUCKING REAL. 99% of things can be 'ended' with a gun, real life or not. ITS NOT always the best solution...

Killing voldemort wasn't always the plan from the get go in the story. I'm actually glad that killing isn't the first plan in real life. Your kid stole a bag of chips? SHOOT HIM IN THE FREAKING HEAD!

Dumbledore (sigh) never wanted to kill Voldemort but to help him.

 

[godfist88]

cause it would of made things too easy XD.

http://youtu.be/YsYWT5Q_R_w

edit: man i suck at embedding stuff.

 

[Aprilgold]

They are fans who take a book too seriously. There is no way to argue with stupidity. Imagining scenarios is fun but any actual arguments just makes me face palm.

All you would need is a nuke and bye bye hogwarts, even if you stop the blast the radiation will be there for years.

Not really, because the would wipe it all away and in fact stop the detonation in the first place.

You can't stop magic with science because you can handwave the science away with more magic if you want.

Oh, and btw, its a series of KIDS books. The OP is calling HP fans names, while actually spending real brain cells trying to disprove a kid's book about magic. Who's the dim witted one again?

"You can't stop magic with science because you can handwave the science away with more magic if you want."

This is precisely why I won't argue with HP fans over this as you can't ever win using common sense.

"its a series of KIDS books."

By book 6 I wouldn't call it a kids book, it's just so depressing and so it the next one except replace depressing with boring.

Few bitches are called sluts, and a few sluts are called bitches. It stopped being a kids book at about book three, if you want to debate it. I agree with you.

You could say that about most works of fiction. A .45 ACP to the brainpan would solve many, many books, TV series and movies in the first act.

And with you.

No one here read the books did they...

First of all... there are shield spells in the books that would deflect a bullet. (they are one-time casts that basically last, like a forcefield) Second.. the better wizards don't need to speak words, thinking the spell is good enough and they can react faster than you can pull a trigger...

So basically... why didn't people that could shoot lightning, teleport at will, and all that pick up a piece of metal containing gunpowder and try to kill the best wizard in the world with it? Because it wouldn't work you freaking genius.

Also, its NOT FUCKING REAL. 99% of things can be 'ended' with a gun, real life or not. ITS NOT always the best solution...

Killing voldemort wasn't always the plan from the get go in the story. I'm actually glad that killing isn't the first plan in real life. Your kid stole a bag of chips? SHOOT HIM IN THE FREAKING HEAD!

Dumbledore (sigh) never wanted to kill Voldemort but to help him.

I remember the shield spell, but was it ever clarified that it would work on bullets, or just magic?

Also, its sad about dumbledore, like always, but still.

 

[Vuljatar]

Why didn't they just shoot him? Because the series took place in England. You don't see any dark wizards trying that shit in the U.S., no sir.

 

[FateOrFatality]

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet but there was an 'unbreakable' charm in Harry Potter. Just charm your clothes and no bullets will penetrate them. Sure, they still have a lot of velocity, but if wizards can levitate things there is probably some sort of charm they have that can bleed of the kinectic energy. There, guns are now useless.

In addition, the argument that Voldemort is racist and wouldn't understand guns is pretty damn stupid. Voldemort grew up in London during World War II. You can be damn sure he knew a fair bit about what muggle weapons could do - he probably saw the aftermath of a few bombings etc.

 

[Astoria]

The main reason it's not used is simply because most wizards don't even know what a gun is. They have a spell that can kill so why would they be interested in a muggle weapon? Also, they're main goal is just to stop Voldemort, Harry's the only one who really thinks about killing him and because of the horcruxes he doesn't even think about actually killing him until the time comes when he can. Does it really matter anyway? The story is brilliantly written with everything becoming important by the end and it's not as bad as the ending for Transformers 3. Seriously, Optimus Prime could have shot that pillar as soon as the fighting broke out!

 

[vrbtny]

The way I like to imagine the books is. Voldermorte wins the battle against the loyalist wizards, decides to take on the rest of the muggle world and is taken out by a sniper within 30 seconds, Tango down!

The rest of the death eaters are whisked off to gitmo.

There is only one true wizard named harry, and his name is Dresden

You, sir, just earned yourself a huge, great big cookie covered in chocolate ecstasy(Yes, it totally exist now.)

Also, your Avatar is just.... epic.

OT : I dunno. A forcefield around Voldemort that deflects bullets? If not, I would totally get a M-16 and go full metal jacket on that jerk.

 

[isometry]

He wouldn't have to stop the bullet, he could just heal the wound after it hit him. Bullets don't kill instantly.

 

[tippy2k2]

The reason a gun would not work is that for a bullet to deal a fatal blow, it is required to rather hit a vital organ, poison the bloodstream, or cause significant shock/bleeding to kill. What many people do not take into account is that Voldemort is nothing but a physical manifestation of magic resembling his once-human form. He doesn't require a brain to think, a heart to beat, or anything like that. The body is just for appearance sake. Think of it like shooting a ghost. Maybe a magic/silver bullet would work though but not a regular gun.

Can someone else who's read the book confirm this? I've heard a lot of arguments against why guns/bullets wouldn't work but this one has never come up (nothing against you Nyaoku but I'd think someone would have thrown this argument out in the many threads about this sort of thing by now). I've never read the books and always thought it was silly they don't just cap his ass.

In a book series I've read, a mercenary states that he would take out a wizard with a high powered sniper rifle. The wizard would die before he even realizes he's under attack.

 

[an874]

Okay from the other topic, someone brought up the question about why they didn't just shoot Voldemort. Now I use to watch these movies with my ex and drive her up the wall with all my questions cause really a LOT of what the magic community does doesn't make sense and is overly pretentios, but this question I investigated in earnest.

Arguments the dim-witted harry potter fan gives as to why the gun wouldn't work...
1. Muggle technology doesn't work around magic.
2. Voldemort would just be able to stop the bullet with magic
3. Voldemort will keep regenerating until the horcruxes are destroyed
4. If they did that there wouldn't be a story.

well... heres my counter argument,

1. You tell me some sort of electronic device doesn't work, I get it. Theres no telling what a magical aura could do to electricity. However a gun is mechanical and chemical. I have to assume if a pully and rope can work in Harry's universe a revolver would work to. Maybe you could argue that the gun powder wouldn't combust... But an obvious solution to that would be just use the wizard-chemical-equalvelent of gun power. Then you got yourself a magic gun!

2. Bullshit. First off, most of the spells require either saying a two syllable word and making a motion with the wand and I doubt Volde could do that against a bullet. Secondly, Voldemort being the racist that he is wouldn't know what a gun is/does if he saw one so he wouldn't have anyway of anticipating the impending bullet.

3. So Voldemort comes back... Just keep shooting everytime he resurrects. It's not like it's instantaneous, and you could probably do it several times before he actually could come up with an effective counter... and even then, just have hermione snipe him from across the pond. The time granted (instead of being wasted fighting him with magic) would be invaluable in finding the remain horcruxes.

4. NO! I freaking hate this response, because all it is trying to cover up how poor the story really is. Hey, I get a kick out the series, but this is a glaring serious plot hole. The whole reason the stakes are high is because the magic world assumes that unless Harry stops volde the muggles wouldn't stand a chance... Truth of the matter is, and JK Rowling said so herself, that in a straight up war with the magical realm the muggles would win. We have vastly superior technology and armor, not to mention numbers.

The only reason, the only GOOD reason why they didn't shoot Voldemort is because Harry just plain didn't think of doing it... and seeing as how both he and hermione both came from the muggle world and never once even lampshaded it I see is a major flaw in the whole series.

Actually with regard to number two he would know what a gun is since he grew up in a Muggle orphanage and spent his summers away from school there. Other than that I kinda see your point.

 

[cswurt]

If the scenes showing Mr. Weasley interacting with Muggles and their technology (I think in a subway station?) is any indication of the rest of the wizarding world, then I doubt many of 'em even know what a gun is, or which side of it makes the loud noise.

And Mr. Weasley is supposed to be some Muggle fanatic, isn't he? Collecting Muggle things. And he was a spaz in the terminal.

 

[burningdragoon]

because shut up that's why.

Now, questions/discussions like this can be plenty fun to have if you don't take it seriously, but it doesn't seem like that direction you wanted to go in.

 

[Treblaine]

I don't think Rowling cares enough about the real world solutions as Harry Potter is supposed to be escapist fiction. Really, if the Prime Minister heard of an insurrection by this Voldermort chap he'd label him a revolutionary or a terrorists and the SAS would insist on doing something. But for Rowling to integrate that into her story would necessitate lookign into military weapons, tactics and REAL WORLD politics which I'm quite sure she'd find interminably boring.

I think a more obvious reason is JK Rowling growing up in the UK likely has had hardly ANY contact with firearms and it hardly even registers in her brain. Guns are EXTREMELY regulated to the point where they just are a non-factor, you only encounter them in films set in other parts of the world.

Every time they leave the muggle world it doesn't so much seem like they enter a magical world, it seem like they GO BACK IN TIME! Or go to a parallel dimension that is chronologically more in sync with pre-Enlightenment Europe than simply "UK without technology".

I'm also rather disappointed with the idea that magic totally substitutes technology as where is the magical substitute for communication technology? Owls may be more whimsical but they are far inferior to mobile phones to have direct calls or texting. Newspapers with animated gifs are no substitute for the internet's constant updating nor is there anything like television, cinema nor computer games.

I suppose my issue is that Rowling did not do enough to separate the Muggle (our) world from The magical world.

IF they were completely separate but superimposed dimensions, and the wizards and witches can cross over into our world, then fine. They could "hide" Harry in this parallel dimension that is ruled by the laws of physics and science. Then Harry and Hermione couldn't suggest firearms because as school kids they know nothing about them. And the Prime Minister wouldn't send the SAS because it's not his problem, it isn't even his dimension.

Frankly I found it caused too many problems saying the Magical world existed secretly with our world as:
-what about the matter of democracy, do wizards and witches get votes? Can they stand in elections? What laws must each follow? Taxes?
-why doesn't the magical community help with matters of illness, they might do great contributions to NHS? Even to law enforcement catching murderers and rapists?
-Why can't "non-magical" students go to Hogwarts? Isn't this discrimination? What about all these political issues?

See, I think Rowling was interested in a Tolkien type of magical world but still needed a way to ground it in the real world so made two of the principal protagonists FROM our world (Hermione had magical-parent(s) who raised her in Muggle world but informed of her lineage). This is a GREAT storytelling technique as it's good to have a fish-out-of-water character - especially the protagonist - for the other characters to exposit everything to.

EXCEPT normally it is not taken to the extreme of Harry Potter, of a de-facto completely different dimension or time. Luke Skywalker grew up as a simple farmer on a dead end planet, plenty of reason for him to ask about how the Empire's Galaxy worked. Frodo and Sam in Lord of the Rings admitted they'd never left Shire in the whole lives. Neo of The Matrix never knew of the grand machine-reality conspiracy. It all had to be explained.

And people don't ask why they didn't just drop a JDAM of Sauron's tower. Because that technology is not part of that universe.

PS: I have an explanation why why they didn't just fly on those eagles all the way to Mordor. A magical-medieval examples of a "no-fly-zone" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_fly_zone] we've seen over Iraq and Libya. It is much easier to shoot down anything flying through the air than to attack any small thing that moves on the ground. Ironically enough the best way into Mordor was to "simply walk into Mordor"

Magic is a tempting option but you really have to commit to it. The thing is technology alone can create so much opportunity. Who was it, was it Arthur C Clark who said:

"any sufficiently advanced form of technology is indistinguishable from magic"

In 1997 it must have seemed so cool to schoolkids the idea of communicating via messenger owls. Yet 15 year later it's common for schoolkids to instantaneously communicate via text messages, phonecalls and even video chat.

Holy shit, it's now been 15 YEARS since Harry Potter was first created. Not long till 20th anniversary. So old.