There is no hell.
- Thread starter TerraMGP
- Start date
Terra,
I think it's more subtle than just "no scriptural support". For example...
The Book of Enoch -- which is not part of the canon -- describes Sheol as a four-part place that includes rewards for the virtuous and punishment for the wicked.
The vast majority of Jews or Christians don't consider Enoch a part of the Bible. However, there are allusions to it in canonical New Testament texts; it's likely that a lot of the early "church fathers" did think of it as canonical or at least read the work. So it's quite possible that the idea of posthumous punishment and reward was part of the early church thinking.
-- Alex
I think it's more subtle than just "no scriptural support". For example...
The Book of Enoch -- which is not part of the canon -- describes Sheol as a four-part place that includes rewards for the virtuous and punishment for the wicked.
The vast majority of Jews or Christians don't consider Enoch a part of the Bible. However, there are allusions to it in canonical New Testament texts; it's likely that a lot of the early "church fathers" did think of it as canonical or at least read the work. So it's quite possible that the idea of posthumous punishment and reward was part of the early church thinking.
-- Alex
Reasons why i hate forum discussions, especially on religious stuff, is that everyone seems "smarter" then me. Which gets me down a little that i don't know everything but then reassures me that i at least know useful things.
Reasons why i love them: I can post once and never look at it again.
Reasons why i love them: I can post once and never look at it again.
It was Socrates who said "The greatest Truth is in the knowledge that we know nothing"JoeNightmare said:
[a href=http://maps.google.com/maps?q=hell,+michigan&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US
fficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&resnum=1&ct=title]Oh, but there is,[/a] and it's a peaceful-looking, unassuming, tourist trap. If that's not the definition of Hell, I don't know what is.
fficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&resnum=1&ct=title]Oh, but there is,[/a] and it's a peaceful-looking, unassuming, tourist trap. If that's not the definition of Hell, I don't know what is.Hell exists as long as heaven does.
Though I don't think it's particularly bad. Who could really spend eternity torturing people? Even then, if there is a war between heaven and hell (Apocalypse) then what kind of idiots must hell be to treat all possible soldiers like crap.
Though I don't think it's particularly bad. Who could really spend eternity torturing people? Even then, if there is a war between heaven and hell (Apocalypse) then what kind of idiots must hell be to treat all possible soldiers like crap.
That 'covenant' is not real. It is a catholic invention to give the catholic church more power over the people and to enable the cash for salvation scam that the church ran for over a thousand years. The pope does NOT have any such privelege, only God can judge your soul.xitel said:
Not at all.Samurai Goomba said:
It is the same as any other aspect of ones life is it not? It is a spiritual concept, something that has individual meaning. It isn't supposed to be an institutionalized method of population control. Think about it for a second - Heaven and Hell is the very essence of individuality. One persons idea of total Hell would be sat in a tiny room surrounded by insects. Another person might find that close to their idea of Heaven.
We make our own personal hell. It is called guilt and conscience. The worse we behave the more this bugs us.
That's a belief. A "religion" is a method of worship involving a set of rules, basic code of conduct or philosophy. The difference between a belief and religion is debatable, but I contend there's a difference.cuddly_tomato said:
The rest of your post is just opinion. I can't refute this any more than you could refute my statement that "Hell exists." You can't prove or disprove a philosophical statement or moral belief, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to disprove the existence of either Heaven or Hell.
According to the Bible, it doesn't matter what your definition of Hell is-the real thing would be far worse than any human can imagine. It would be beyond any Earthly description, with "wailing and gnashing of teeth."
I never said religion was "an institutionalized method of population control." Stop trying to create a two-choice scenario. Believing that Hell exists does NOT mean that one follows the Catholic Church's harsh, restrictive methods. My church does not "control" me any more than your philosophy teacher/mentor controls YOU (if you have someone like that in your life.)
*ahem*Samurai Goomba said:
That wasn't me, it was someone else.
See?Samurai Goomba said:
But it DOES mean that you go to Hell if you don't follow their harsh, restrictive rules. So while the church does not "control" you directly it is using concepts of Hell to modify your (or people in its particular congregations) behavior. Don't go to church enough - off to Hell. Don't give alms to the poor (by donating to the church) - say hi to Satan. Do anything at all that disturbs the sensitivities of the clergy - then your feet will be warm for eternity.Samurai Goomba said:
The Pope recently shut down Hell anyway didn't he?
Ohh no sorry it was Limbo he shut down [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5412166.stm]. That place which has existed for thousands of years, just took the pope waving a bit to get the place put on the property market. What of all the people who have spent years believing it (being good Catholics)? It is mentioned in the Bible is it not? Seems they were all wrong.
How long before Heaven and Hell is "modified" once more to fit in with the modern age?
It really tells you about organized religion and says a whole lot about the pitfalls of taking the Bible literally.
I'm not a Catholic. These kind of arguments really don't even apply to me. I don't have to follow the "do X or go to Hell" logic. I don't buy into the idea that getting into Heaven is based on what you DO, but what you ARE.cuddly_tomato said:
Also, I don't follow any kind of Church definition of Hell. My view of Hell was shaped purely by the Bible itself (my interpretation of what I read). Thus, the Church can't use their definition to manipulate me. I do what I do based on whether I think it's the right thing to do, not because of the consequences.
"Do anything at all that disturbs the sensitivities of the clergy - then your feet will be warm for eternity."
Excuse me? Could you be more misinformed? Those who condemn others (to Hell)on the basis of personal disagreement are, at best, dirtbags of the highest order. People (if you believe in the Bible) go to Hell based on concrete actions of evil (or the deep desire to practice evil, which eventually becomes action), not because of politics. I've known family who've left our Church, and I don't think they're any less likely to get into Heaven. Church doesn't save people, God does.
As far as I know, our Church has never suggested that somebody who left it was going to Hell.
"How long before Heaven and Hell is "modified" once more to fit in with the modern age?"
Actually, what will happen is that people will keep the part of the Bible they like (Heaven and God's forgiveness) and disregard the part they don't (Hell and God's Judgement.) In a way, you are fulfilling your own prophecy. Sure, I'll agree that there are many who misuse Hell in order to manipulate others, but I don't think it's fair to throw out the idea on those grounds. There are those who misuse all kinds of concepts.
As for the Pope shutting down Limbo, well... Either it always existed, in which case he doesn't have the authority to shut it down (God outranks him, and I don't see why God would shut down something that's supposedly existed for so long), or it NEVER existed (very likely) and he's just trying to use fear and shock to motivate people. Neither one helps your argument, because we're talking about Hell, not Catholicism. And hey, I'll agree with you that the Pope is a massive jerk, okay?
If you want to argue the Catholic definition of Hell, fine, but I was under the impression we're just talking about the Biblical definition. Catholics haven't cornered the market on the Biblical Hell.
If you do some research you will find that is all places in the bible where it is referenced it is talking about a garbage dump outside of town. Kind of anti-climatic but those are the facts.
According to Ronnie James Dio:
Sing me a song, you're a singer
Do me a wrong, you're a bringer of evil
The devil is never a maker
The less that you give, you're a taker
So it's on and on and on, it's heaven and hell
Oh well
And they'll tell you black is really white
The moon is just the sun at night
And when you walk in golden halls
You get to keep the gold that falls
It's heaven and hell, oh no
And as far as I'm concerned, Dio is the final authority in anything.
Sing me a song, you're a singer
Do me a wrong, you're a bringer of evil
The devil is never a maker
The less that you give, you're a taker
So it's on and on and on, it's heaven and hell
Oh well
And they'll tell you black is really white
The moon is just the sun at night
And when you walk in golden halls
You get to keep the gold that falls
It's heaven and hell, oh no
And as far as I'm concerned, Dio is the final authority in anything.
I'm sure there's no hell, but it's always nice to have some place to tell people to go when they're being assholes.
Yes...but then there's so many different denominations, that that means there could be hundreds of different hells. But then there aren't, because the concept existed in Pagan religion before it was stolen by Christianity in order to assimilate Pagans into their religion.xitel said: