Things you like that have..."questionable" messages

[Weaver]

Every vengaboys song.

 

[Vault101]

It's very difficult to read into authorial intent from fictional content. An artist creates a world and expresses the worldview of *that world*, not his own worldview.

I'm not nessicaryly talking about the creators themsevles, more about where a way something is framed comflicts with how YOU the veiwer sees it, its unintentional on their part

like the movie Patch Addams, in it wer'e suposed to be inspired by the goofy protagonist (played by robin williams) because he has a big heart and goes against the establishment..EXCEPT a lot of veiwers were like [i/]no...I agree with the bad guy...this idiot shouldnt be practicing medicine[/i] (see TvTropes "strawman has a point") Patch addams is not ambigious about how it wants you to feel, which is fine, except when it fails [i/]well if you didn't study why mabye you WERE cheating![/i] it makes it funny

and anyway that really depends

with some authors it becomes painfully obvious to the point where it feels like the work is their personal wank fantasy, this is obviously up to interpretation


[quote/]A story that trivializes rape doesn't imply anything about the author except that he is presenting a world that trivializes rape, meaning one not too different if at all from our own.[/quote]

again that depends, if the trivialisation of rape is framed as a bad thing "in universe" then yeah....BUT if in universe the male hero slaps the lady and tells her to "get over it and pull herself together" and shes like "ok..thankyou" and this is framed as perfectly aceptible/normal....then I'm going to think the Author eather has some questionable veiws or is seriously uninformed

[quote/]I don't know anything about Ian Fleming's personal life, but there's no reason to believe that he was a globetrotting womanizing egomaniacal sociopath just because James Bond is.[/quote]
it DOES show he may be a product of his time

nothing is created in a vacumn

I am really fond of the Fight Club movie, but anyone who has seen it can agree that the messages and themes are a bit morally iffy.

the movie makes it clear that Tyler is by no means somone to be idolized/followed

some people (intentionally or not) fail to see he's the bad guy

kind of like how people (a certain demographic *cough*MRA's*cough*) would interperet everyhting kevin spaceys charachter does in American beutiy as 100% justified and good, and gloss over the pain it brings others

 

[Vault101]

The message of that movie was 'Don't let your talents go to waste for fear of not fitting in.' Rather a good one actually. The "Don't try and be special CAUSE YOU AIN'T!" was its criticism against the 'everyone's a winner/attendance award' mentality.

oh yeah, that is true

its just to me the latter comes across more strongly, because supers are born with such powers, and while its true people are more inatley "better" than others the "supers/normals" makes the divide even more obvious "youre eather born special or youre not"

[quote/]If you teach kids that it doesn't matter whether you win or lose and that everyone is special, what drive will they have to make something of themselves and actually become special[/quote]

funny though...the one charachter who reaches their level through of his own will and effort is deamonized

and then theres the whole thing with Dash...what exactly was the point of letting him compete with sports? he holding back on purpose which is EXACTLY the kind of thing the movie rails against and ultimatly all it is is an exercise in him deciding weather or not he's going to win, he's not being fulfilled and the "norms" don't stand a fucking chance...it just comes across as "everyone in their propper place" type thing

I can understand the message and mabye theres something to be said since its a slightly different/ambitious one...I just dont know if it was handles all that wel

 

[FPLOON]

-Any song that features Eminem in it...
-Any song that features 50 Cent in it...
-Songs that sound like a parody, but aren't...
-Most harem series (that I actually bothered to watched all the way through)
-Forzen
-Most Cartoon Network shows that have that TV-PG rating...

Honestly, I'm having a hard time answering this since that would require me to think a bit "too deep" into stuff I like... and, last time I checked, I should be able to point out any questionable messages if they were hitting me personally in the metaphorical sense...[footnote]That last part sounds odd the more I keep re-reading it back to myself... DAMMIT![/footnote]

Why haven't I bought Weird Al's new album yet?! This is, yet, another parody song I want on my Ipod right now!!

 

[Something Amyss]

I don't know anything about Ian Fleming's personal life, but there's no reason to believe that he was a globetrotting womanizing egomaniacal sociopath just because James Bond is. There's also no reason to believe that James Bond is Ian Fleming's ideal self - it's more likely that Ian Fleming was responding to the cold war paranoia-fueled McCarthy-era world in which he lived and wanted to show through fiction what the world of the rich and powerful was like, but even that is speculative.

And contrary to Fleming's profession that Bond's characteristics were largely based upon his own. Fleming even went so far as to start humanising the character after a single book. The idea might work if his premise of Bond as a colder, unsympathetic character wasn't abandoned pretty much immediately.

James Bond might actually be one of the worst examples one could use.

 

[briankoontz]

Not so sure about that.

While it's true that authors often depict things that they don't personally approve of, surely their disapproval should come through in their work?

That's not necessary unless the author doesn't trust his audience to think for themselves. The best thing an author can do is to be true to the fictional world he creates.

The James Bond films would have been a lot worse if there had been a lot of directoral or writer disapproval of Bond. It's better for the creator to give an entirely honest appraisal of Bond and let the audience decide for themselves what to make of it.

Martin Scorsese has a good approach in his recent film The Wolf of Wall Street. In an interview he said that he had a lot of appreciation for and compassion for the main character although he didn't "agree" with him.

It's a bad idea for an author to have contempt for a character because that contempt prevents the author from fully realizing the character, thus harming the work as a whole. Only if the character isn't representing something human but is a metaphor for an idea or something else can a contemptous attitude work, but even then it's risky. Authors should always be able to exercise self-control in their work regardless of their personal feelings.

As Lenny Bruce said (paraphrased): "I have the same problems that I criticize in others".

If an author is really on a higher level than his work then he should find better work. It's the job of fictional writers to present truths about the real world through a fictional reality to an audience, not use art as an excuse for a personal soapbox monologue.

 

[Diddy_Mao]

I've probably said it a few times in the past, but I'm a huge animation nerd. As part of my collection I have a bunch of DVD's videos and even a few film reels of old cartoons from the 1930's through the early 60's (The "Golden Age" of Animation.)


I enjoy watching these cartoons. Both from an entertainment and academic standpoint. But I won't sit here and deny that these cartoons weren't frequently super Racist.

I'm a big believer in the "product of it's time" argument.
Our culture grows and expands and refines itself all the time. To expect a piece of media from previous generations to conform to the moral and social expectations of modern life is, at best completely absurd, and at worst a passive form of revisionism that allows us to ignore the uncomfortable truths of our past.

 

[Vault101]

I enjoy watching these cartoons. Both from an entertainment and academic standpoint. But I won't sit here and deny that these cartoons weren't frequently super Racist.
.

yeah thats not quite the same thing, they are products of their time as you said

though I'll admit something like "Coal Black and De Sebban Dwafs" isn't really funny as it was intended...outside of [i/]hahaha oh god! we were so racist and terrible back then....oh lord....[/i]

 

[Ten Foot Bunny]

The entirety of The Who's album, Quadrophenia.

Confused? Let's analyze:

* Reject your parents, authority figures, and all of society's norms

* Drive across country to instigate a fight with a rival gang that turns into a riot; enthusiastically participate in the riot

* Earn popularity and respect by taking copious amounts of drugs and engaging in innumerable sexual conquests

* Tell off your boss for making you do work; get fired

* Use sadistic power fantasies to facilitate masturbation if you can't find consensual sex

* Steal someone's prized possession - their status symbol - if they have the popularity you're struggling to achieve

* Commit suicide

---------------------------------

Okay, so the last one is only a theory, though heavily implied. Pete Townshend has never answered fans' questions as to whether or not Jimmy took his own life.

 

[briankoontz]

And contrary to Fleming's profession that Bond's characteristics were largely based upon his own. Fleming even went so far as to start humanising the character after a single book. The idea might work if his premise of Bond as a colder, unsympathetic character wasn't abandoned pretty much immediately.

James Bond might actually be one of the worst examples one could use.

Wikipedia says - "Fleming based his creation on a number of individuals he met during his time in the Naval Intelligence Division, and admitted that Bond "was a compound of all the secret agents and commando types I met during the war"." The footnotes say this is taken from a Ben Macintyre article in The Times of London.

So regardless of what either we or Fleming might think of Bond, he was at least familiar with him (as an amalgamation of a lot of people he knew) and he, at least, was sympathetic to him. This sympathy is likely based in part on Bond being at permanent war - people in war say and do things that they don't say and do in a more comfortable peaceful setting. People who took the Cold War seriously were at continual war for decades.

All real understanding of Bond is lost when one has contempt for him, like all real understanding of American soldiers is lost when we condemn them for being racist toward the people whose job theirs is to dominate and control.

As Dante Alighieri might say - I will reach heaven not by slaying the demons I meet in hell, but by talking to them and having compassion for them. For I am them only until I am no longer.

Paladins, like RPG heroes, only save the world within the dark recesses of their own minds. They demonize the world and then carve their way through it, producing many corpses but no truth. "Saving the world, one corpse at a time" results in a lifeless meaningless world and one very self-satisfied "hero" who has forever proven to himself his bravery, valor, and righteousness.

Paladins and RPG heroes begin with the idea that they have nothing left to learn except how to kill more proficiently. They know what the monsters are, they know they are better than that and deserve to kill the monsters, they know they are saving the world BY killing the monsters. But when questioned, they can't give good reasons for why they are so awesome, so much greater than all the human-loving people throughout history. DUH, it's just self-evident that monsters are monsters and humans need to kill monsters to preserve humanity. DUH, don't you know that, dumbass? So get out your shotgun and blow some heads off zombies - get out your sword and hack 'n' slash - it's time to save the world, one corpse at a time.

 

[Azure23]

Not the American Average by Asking Alexandria is all about a guy having a one-night stand with a woman. When she fails to satisfy him, I'm pretty sure he either starts to beat her, verbally abuse her, or murder her. I'm not really sure. The last fifteen seconds of the song is nothing but him screaming "You stupid fucking *****!"

Carnival of Souls by Nightmares is another song with either eh lyrics or really bad. I've been debating myself on it. One side isn't bad, the song's about a guy who was friends with a girl who started being flirty and stuff to get things from him. Causing him to leave. The other is about a guy who's angry about being in the friendzone, granted she did mislead him, and he leaves. Both are a little neck-beardy.

The Black Company books by Glen Cook kinda trivialize rape. Like a prisoner breakout happens and two girls get raped. It may just be Glen Cook's style of writing, but he just mentions this in two lines. "During the breakout, two of the girls were raped." and then he never brings it up again. No soldier is punished and we never see the victims complain about it.

Oddly enough I just finished Soldiers live today. Great stuff. Not sure I can really agree with you about Cook trivializing rape though. (Also I don't remember what you're talking about unless it happened in the silver spike, or are you referring to Arkana? Because that def gets addressed and those soldiers are punished)

I remember reading the first book and the black company had just encircled and routed a rebel camp (whisper's I think?) anyway they had an "Amazonian regiment."
So croaker is just doing his thing writing his annals while chilling with the captain and a guy walks up with a naked woman draped over his shoulder as of to show them some prize, stating that, "she would have been pretty had she not been so badly used." That was like a gut punch to me, that a character associated with our heroes could be a rapist, even more so because our hero croaker does nothing, which in my mind is almost an equal crime. croaker then goes on to explain how he neglects to report on the worst side of his comrades because they were his only family. I felt like Cook was trying to go for a semi realistic depiction of medieval soldiers, then you have your archetypal fantasy hero, Raven, going around saving ladies. Later on you even see that mainstays, like Otto and Hagop have that horrible side too (one of them tried to rape Lady when they'r hiding on the plain in their hole.) I guess I felt like it was treated appropriately for the context of the story, in that Croaker would never dwell on it die to his loyalty to his brothers, however personally distasteful I find that aspect of his character. Certainly I do to think trivializing rape is a message that the series gives.

 

[Casual Shinji]

The message of that movie was 'Don't let your talents go to waste for fear of not fitting in.' Rather a good one actually. The "Don't try and be special CAUSE YOU AIN'T!" was its criticism against the 'everyone's a winner/attendance award' mentality.

oh yeah, that is true

its just to me the latter comes across more strongly, because supers are born with such powers, and while its true people are more inatley "better" than others the "supers/normals" makes the divide even more obvious "youre eather born special or youre not"

That's just more the context of the universe. Being born a superhero there is similar to being born with a talent for music, writing, or art. And it's simplified for the sake of not having to come up with a an origins story for Bob, Helen, Violet, Dash, and Frozone.

funny though...the one charachter who reaches their level through of his own will and effort is deamonized

But that's all his own doing though with his obsession over being "the real thing", when really he was just as much a superhero. Syndrome was also born with basically a super power, but because he felt rejected as a kid (not because he was a "norm" but because he was a little kid and an obsessive fanboy) he decided to get revenge and show how much better he was than the Supers by killing them all.

and then theres the whole thing with Dash...what exactly was the point of letting him compete with sports? he holding back on purpose which is EXACTLY the kind of thing the movie rails against and ultimatly all it is is an exercise in him deciding weather or not he's going to win, he's not being fulfilled and the "norms" don't stand a fucking chance...it just comes across as "everyone in their propper place" type thing

I can understand the message and mabye theres something to be said since its a slightly different/ambitious one...I just dont know if it was handles all that wel

While I absolutely love the movie, I never really cared for the epilogue with Dash at the track and everyone being a one big happy family. For me Dash's moment of fulfilment was on the island against Syndrome's henchmen, and ultimately him as well as the rest of the family being allowed to just be superheroes again.

And in the end there are people who are special compared to the rest. Who can do things others can't and who contribute great things. Whether they were born with it or achieved it through hard work doesn't really matter, what matters is that they enrich our lives and change the world. There's people who I find special and admire because of what they've given me, even if I don't know them personally. Everyone has the capacity to be special, but you're not special just for being. And to me The Incredibles acknowledges this.

 

[Casual Shinji]

That's the thing with Syndrome... Instead of seeing the qualities he actually has, he wastes all his talent (and the lives of others) to be something he's not.

Um... he actually did try to play to his strengths by becoming a gadget hero and then by playing tech support for things like rescue workers and so on.

Where in the movie did that happen? All we saw was a little kid who was fanboying over a superhero who didn't want him hanging around.

Pretty much the only non-heroic thing Syndrome does in the whole movie is be kind of a dick to the one guy he should have had an outright murderous blood-feud with instead. Meanwhile, the primary protagonist literally saved more lives ON SCREEN as an insurance salesman than as a cape.

You mean, apart from murdering dozens of superheroes as well as Bob's family and the kidnapping of his son? And Bob saved more people as an insurance agent, which was one old lady, than he did as a cape, which were the suicide guy and the people on the train? Maybe I'm remembering things wrong, but the math doesn't seem to add up here.

 

[TakerFoxx]

Pretty much the only non-heroic thing Syndrome does in the whole movie is be kind of a dick to the one guy he should have had an outright murderous blood-feud with instead. Meanwhile, the primary prt literally saved more lives ON SCREEN as an insurance salesman than as a cape.

To call the movie's message 'mixed' does it a disservice, it was actively, outright subversive.

Well, there were all those superheroes he deceived and murdered just to make his killer robot stronger, the fact that he didn't even attempt to call off the missiles he had sent to destroy the airplane after learning that children were on board and taunted Mr. Incredible for his grief, toyed with Mirage's life just to make a point, caused a ton of property damage and endangered a bunch of lives by unleashing his killer robot on the city just so he could look good defeating it, and tried to kidnap his nemesis' s infant son for no other reason than petty revenge. Hell, even his furthering humanity goal was directly stated to be motivated by wanting payback against the supers instead of actually wanting yo do good. Guy may have been a genius who made a lot from his talents, but there is no denying that he was an unrepentant sociopath.

 

[maxben]

Any movie by Christopher Nolan. What Batman? To save the city you have to hack into everyone's cellphones? Gee whiz that sounds like a good idea! All for national, I mean municipal, security. All of his movies have these weird undertones of politics that I really don't like, but I mean we all have to deal with that at a point.

Didn't either Batman or Morgan Freeman actually end up destroying the device that hacked everyones phones at the end of the movie?

I don't think so, I just remember that Morgan Freeman resigns after totally helping Batman do what he asked of him

 

[jklinders]

Any movie by Christopher Nolan. What Batman? To save the city you have to hack into everyone's cellphones? Gee whiz that sounds like a good idea! All for national, I mean municipal, security. All of his movies have these weird undertones of politics that I really don't like, but I mean we all have to deal with that at a point.

Didn't either Batman or Morgan Freeman actually end up destroying the device that hacked everyones phones at the end of the movie?

They did. That does not undermine the underlying message that the hack was justified in that it worked and was the only way to beat Bane. Whether intended or not the use of that tech in that way justified a degradation of civil liberties Americans have (not) enjoyed since the patriot act was passed and upheld by both parties. I don't even want to get into how Bane was essentially a shot at the whole "Occupy" movement and a reclusive weird billionaire was the answer to the problem. I will grant that it's possible given Nolan's real world politics that it may be a very subtle satire, but big government and control of the masses through questionable means abounds through that series.

No politics in The Prestige, but some creepy creepy ethics presented there as well. I won't spoil it even in a spoiler block because damn that movie is good, but creepy as all hell. If you haven't watched it, stop reading this and watch it...now.

 

[J Tyran]

Any movie by Christopher Nolan. What Batman? To save the city you have to hack into everyone's cellphones? Gee whiz that sounds like a good idea! All for national, I mean municipal, security. All of his movies have these weird undertones of politics that I really don't like, but I mean we all have to deal with that at a point.

Didn't either Batman or Morgan Freeman actually end up destroying the device that hacked everyones phones at the end of the movie?

I don't think so, I just remember that Morgan Freeman resigns after totally helping Batman do what he asked of him

Morgan Freeman had a tantrum after Batman showed him the device and said "after this I quit", Batman said, "okay then, press this button when you're finished" and left. Once it was all over Morgan Freeman pressed the button and the device self destructed as originally planned by Batman.

Because you know, Batman plans for everything.

Any movie by Christopher Nolan. What Batman? To save the city you have to hack into everyone's cellphones? Gee whiz that sounds like a good idea! All for national, I mean municipal, security. All of his movies have these weird undertones of politics that I really don't like, but I mean we all have to deal with that at a point.

Didn't either Batman or Morgan Freeman actually end up destroying the device that hacked everyones phones at the end of the movie?

They did. That does not undermine the underlying message that the hack was justified in that it worked and was the only way to beat Bane. Whether intended or not the use of that tech in that way justified a degradation of civil liberties Americans have (not) enjoyed since the patriot act was passed and upheld by both parties. I don't even want to get into how Bane was essentially a shot at the whole "Occupy" movement and a reclusive weird billionaire was the answer to the problem. I will grant that it's possible given Nolan's real world politics that it may be a very subtle satire, but big government and control of the masses through questionable means abounds through that series.

No politics in The Prestige, but some creepy creepy ethics presented there as well. I won't spoil it even in a spoiler block because damn that movie is good, but creepy as all hell. If you haven't watched it, stop reading this and watch it...now.

You're thinking of the wrong movie, the phone hack was in the Dark Knight, Bane was in the Dark Knight Rises.

 

[Entitled]

That's just more the context of the universe. Being born a superhero there is similar to being born with a talent for music, writing, or art. And it's simplified for the sake of not having to come up with a an origins story for Bob, Helen, Violet, Dash, and Frozone.

Then the movie has chosen an extremely unfortunate context for itself. It's not like the writers NEEDED to tell their rant against attendance awards specifically in the form of a superhero story.

That genre already has it's own unfortunate implications about the audience expected to unconditionally trust the Superhuman heroes, even when everyone has their own origin story. But it is absolutely the worst system to use as an allegory for everyone having to find their own talents.

It would be different in a more mundane genre, say, a detective story where the protagonist's underling tries hard to be a detective, but learns that he is really more competent as an actor, or where an injured sport star has to reinvent himself as a coach. You know, in world where humans are reasonably equal, rather than divided into godlike Supers, and boring grey Ordinary People.

The story never bothered to point out how Syndrome or any of the muggle extras could "become special", it was always about a small class of Special people, who can be strong, competent, and Syndrome trying to raise himself to that level even though he wasn't born that way, thus getting told that his power is not "real".

This was literally his big evil plan:

"I'll sell my inventions so that everyone can have powers. Everyone can be super! And when everyone is super ... (evil laugh)... no one will be."

As a Cracked article once put it:

Yes, his evil apocalyptic vision is what the rest of us call utopia: The disabled will walk, the weak will be made strong, everyone will fly. And the film wants us to root against that, because that would be unfair to all of the people born with extraordinary abilities right now. If everyone can have what the genetically gifted and powerful have, well, shit, we might as well just burn the whole thing to the ground.

And thus we spend the movie rooting for the hero and his family to stop Syndrome, each of them using the superhuman physical abilities they were born with due to genetics. Lots of critics pointed out that the movie contains several references to Ayn Rand's philosophy ("They're constantly finding ways to celebrate mediocrity!" laments Mr. Incredible, almost staring directly into the camera to say it to the audience), but that's not really fair -- Rand would never have advocated against innovation because it might be used by genetic inferiors. Shit, I don't even think the Nazis were against that.

 

[Elfgore]

snip

I take it this must be your first experience with Cook. All of his books try and depict dark medieval fantasy, not the D&D one with Sir Goody Two Shoes and his army of goodness. You shouldn't like half the characters in his books, their all either assholes, murders, or rapist. He's method of magic has always made me happy as well. He much rather have magic be actually mysterious rather than "oh, yeah Magic? I can do that!" being said by every peasant

The rape scene I'm referring to happened so fast, I wouldn't have noticed it if I friend hadn't interrupted me. If you remember when they finally reach Khotar and those flying mages attack them? They end up catching like two girls and a guy, if I remember. They try and escape at one point and in two lines, say the girls were raped and the guy was badly beaten. At least Croaker had the men punished.

If you liked what you read with The Black Company, I'd strongly recommend The Dread Empire and Tyranny of the Night series by him. The Dread Empire is all about an evil empire based off Japan. The Tyranny of the Night is pretty much the Crusades, only magic and the old Norse gods are real. The Dread Empire is probably one of his happier books, the Tyranny of the Night is not. We have pedophiles and a lot of other nasty things.

 

[Shiftygiant]

Beyond Two Souls taught me suicide is the only option to be happy if a loved one dies, and that all men are rapists or father figures or both.

Oh wait, were meant to like them. Err, Kafka and to an extent, the Twilight Zone. No matter how nice you are, the universe will fuck with you for shits and giggles. And it will be funny.