Things you like that have..."questionable" messages

[Princessbabe]

Ghost in the Shell. Both in the first movie and in Stand Alone Complex section 9 seem to be the go-to guys for assassinating anyone seeking political asylum. It seems GitS's Japan became a super-power by selling radiation scrubbing nanomachines after nuclear wars, and then building their infrastructure using the cheap labor of displaced Asian refugees.

While she is a great character, one of my all time favourites, Major Motoko Kusanagi does seem to have some fascist leanings.

 

[Littaly]

With LOTR, though, where we are supposed to think of them as the good guys, it's different.

I'm especially bothered by the gender politics.
For example, the valar are mentioned not to really be male or female, they just take those kinds of forms.
And yet they form male/female pairs?

Wouldn't want to seem gay or anything?
And why did all the wizards take male forms? They aren't really male or female either.

And don't get me started with female representation...

I love LOTR, but I acknowledge it's issues.

That wasn't actually my main issue with Lord of the Rings. I remember that when I read it I was a little unnerved by the whole Númenorean part of the story. When you boil it down they're basically a superior race of humans, not just in a physical sense but in a spiritual, moral and intellectual sense as well. I remember the book portraying the whole race of people as essentially perfect and incorruptable as opposed to the "normal" humans who were deeply flawed, greedy and curruptable. If I recall correctly it even stated that Gondor was in decline specifically because the bloodline of the Gondor kings had been mixed with non-Númenor blood and that Aragorn being crowned king was significant not only because he was the rightful heir but because he was pure blooded.

I might have misinterpreted the whole thing (or remember it wrong), but for me the idea of a superior human race and the decline of humanity because the blood of the superior mixed with the blood of the inferior reminded me a little too much of similar real-world ideas and beliefs. I love Lord of the Rings, but never really got over that part of the story.

The entirety of The Who's album, Quadrophenia.

Confused? Let's analyze:

* Reject your parents, authority figures, and all of society's norms

* Drive across country to instigate a fight with a rival gang that turns into a riot; enthusiastically participate in the riot

* Earn popularity and respect by taking copious amounts of drugs and engaging in innumerable sexual conquests

* Tell off your boss for making you do work; get fired

* Use sadistic power fantasies to facilitate masturbation if you can't find consensual sex

* Steal someone's prized possession - their status symbol - if they have the popularity you're struggling to achieve

* Commit suicide

---------------------------------

Okay, so the last one is only a theory, though heavily implied. Pete Townshend has never answered fans' questions as to whether or not Jimmy took his own life.

I'm actually gonna step in and defend Quadrophenia here. The actions of the main character are not necessarily the message of the album. I can't come up with another example right now, but there's plenty of movies with characters acting in a (often despicable way) way that are not encouraged by the movie itelf.

I've never found Quadrophenia to carry any real message, but rather a theme of abandonment. The need to belong somewhere but feeling that everywhere you seek shelter lets you down. To me, Jimmy's destructive behavior isn't as important to the album as his disillusionment with society's institutions. He feels let down by his famiy, by his job, by his music and ultimately even by his subculture. You can argue back and forth whether he has the right to feel that way, but I think the album is centering on the feeling itself, not on a message of whether or not it's justified.

That doesn't mean I think Townshend is criticizing the behaior of his main character. I wouldn't even argue with someone who says he's romanticising it. But I've never interpreted it as the message of the album, which is one of my favorites of all time, both musically and lyrically.

 

[Lieju]

With LOTR, though, where we are supposed to think of them as the good guys, it's different.

I'm especially bothered by the gender politics.
For example, the valar are mentioned not to really be male or female, they just take those kinds of forms.
And yet they form male/female pairs?

Wouldn't want to seem gay or anything?
And why did all the wizards take male forms? They aren't really male or female either.

And don't get me started with female representation...

I love LOTR, but I acknowledge it's issues.

That wasn't actually my main issue with Lord of the Rings. I remember that when I read it I was a little unnerved by the whole Númenorean part of the story. When you boil it down they're basically a superior race of humans, not just in a physical sense but in a spiritual, moral and intellectual sense as well. I remember the book portraying the whole race of people as essentially perfect and incorruptable as opposed to the "normal" humans who were deeply flawed, greedy and curruptable. If I recall correctly it even stated that Gondor was in decline specifically because the bloodline of the Gondor kings had been mixed with non-Númenor blood and that Aragorn being crowned king was significant not only because he was the rightful heir but because he was pure blooded.

Yeah, that's true, and LOTR has its fair share of racism.

The reason it doesn't bother me as much is that it's more often discussed and acknowledged as a problem.
(At least in the circles I hang around in.)

It shouldn't be ignored, of course, especially since LOTR is still so influential.

So the kind of attitudes that the high wise and beautiful beings are of course white persist.

(Although I assumed, when I read The Silmarillion as a kid that the Númenorians were not exactly white. They are probably described in the text but I think I made the connection with Atlantis and Egyptians and the Middle-east, what with it sinking into the sea and being the cradle of cilization.)

 

[themilo504]

mother 3 comes to mind, I really dislike that games anti-technology lesson and the way it idealizes the past, and yet it?s still one of my favourite jrps.

 

[Buckshaft]

Saw. Cherish your life! But only after it's been threatened by a serial killer!

 

[Buckshaft]

Snip

All british newspapers are shit. At least the redtops have page 3 going for them. The Guardian is basically the mail for pretentious left-wingers, and the only way I'd ever support the guardian is buying those Charlier Brooker books they publish.

 

[Dalisclock]

mother 3 comes to mind, I really dislike that games anti-technology lesson and the way it idealizes the past, and yet it?s still one of my favourite jrps.

I saw it as more of a Japanese take on "One hundred years of solitude" with a lot of loss of innocence thrown in.

And some wacky time travel hijinks, but it's a Mother game.

 

[Dalisclock]

KSP, because Kerbals are expendable as long as there's SCIENCE.

Also because they're cute. They're practically minions from Despicable Me.

 

[ForumSafari]

All british newspapers are shit. At least the redtops have page 3 going for them. The Guardian is basically the mail for pretentious left-wingers, and the only way I'd ever support the guardian is buying those Charlier Brooker books they publish.

They are pretty bad aren't they? I tend to like Internet news better.

Yeah, but they try *really* hard to show how much of a dick the father was to justify the heist, and then have shots lingering on Cillian Murphy's face to show the 'wonderful' catharsis and closure that it's given him. Even though he's presumably going to go insane in a year or two because of it. It's... jarring.

I think it's supposed to be jarring because it's a falsely infused feeling, it's showing how his feelings are being cynically exploited but how it feels so real for him. Since if I recall correctly it was a film about making films it's quite an interesting stance.

Science fiction is my favourite genre, and I read a lot - I understand the concept of speculative fiction!
That said, Heinlein is almost masturbatory in his portray of this militaristic society.

That's a personal preference thing but I thought it was fairly balanced. It's mostly portrayed from the point of view of those that like the system so of course it's glowing but I still think it's a fun book. Just mentioning the speculative angle though, the amount of people i see quoting Starship Troopers as if it was a Goodkind-esque doorstop laying out the author's exact opinion.

This wasn't directed at me, but did any newspaper, left or right, apologise over Andrew Mitchell? And anyway, there were allegations made by a few police officers, it's not like the Guardian was responsible for inventing the words he apparently said.
CommentisFree is user generated. The Comment section contains opinion pieces, for which less editorial control is exerted, and less research/evidence generally expected. Most newspapers have something similar. For example, Peter Hitchins does spectacularly dishonest pieces in the equivalent section in the Express. Richard Littlejohn and Jain Moir do/did the same in the Mail.

CommentisFree is technically speaking user generated, but in practice a lot of the content is written elsewhere and the Guardian staff approach them for the use of the blogs. Additionally it's been the site of some fairly hateful stuff (as in, equal to or greater than the Mail) but the equal truism of everyone hating the Mail is that no one reads the Guardian so they don't get called on it.

Of course 'other media outlets being as bad' wouldn't excuse the Guardian, but it does make it rather odd for you to specifically pick it out. Especially when other outlets aren't just 'as bad' but are worse with regard to things like quantifiable instances of phone hacking.

They aren't as bad as some of the red tops but they also claim to be morally superior so to catch them being as underhanded and speculative as other papers and then making like their shit doesn't stink is pretty damn distasteful.

 

[Azure23]

Old James Bond movies/books.

Examples:
There's no such thing as a lesbian, only women that haven't met a real man.
Homosexuals (male) are evil, and cannot whistle.
Women are hysterics and need to be slapped around once in a while. Also, they're kind of useless (except for sex - see above!).
Smoking, drinking and gambling are about the coolest things you can do.

That's a bit of a cynical reading and mostly applies to the older films. The novels themselves and the Daniel Craig era films don't fall into the same category of pantomime silliness - sure, the novels are very "of their time" regarding attitudes to women and drink, but not cartoonishly so: they're not the endless romps of drunkenly backhanding women that they're sometimes described as.

My pick is Disney's Dumbo, which I re-watched for the first time since childhood about a year ago. Ye gads, it doens't stand up well to adult eyes. The plot is disjointed, it's only about half a flamin' hour long (I exaggerate, but hey), and the "moral" of the story is "You don't need to be normal to achieve success - you just need a lucrative and exploitable talent to win the respect of your former tormentors!"

Ian Flemming was once quoted as saying (about his Bond character), "that he liked his sex best when it had the sweet tang of rape." That's pretty much verbatim.

Discuss?

 

[Shoggoth2588]

I remember a lot of children's entertainment from when I was a kid (meaning cartoons or things like power rangers or what have you) wherein there would be a girl character who was either not-quite-main or, friends-with-the-main characters. The role of this girl was usually to be kidnapped by the bad guys and it couldn't have sent out a great message to girls about submission and, their role in life (ie: get used to being tied up and waiting around for the important people to rescue you). The ladies in these shows were never really useless for the most part...people like Penny from Inspector Gadget or, April from TMNT usually had some kind of powers of exposition at their disposal but at the end of the day it was always the girl who ended up being the one in trouble.

 

[Loonyyy]

Avatar: The Legend of Korra told us that it's abhorent to remove the powers from those who have superpowers by birth, even if those people use their powers to subjucate and denigrate their fellows.

Wait what? What did the airbender children do to deserve having their superpowers taken away? Seaon 1 of Korra had the same message as X-Men: Don't go on a crusade against a group of people with super powers, it's just racism.

It did, and that could be good, except Korra uses her powers like a bully frequently, and the state does use a police force of benders to attack non benders, including raiding a dojo, which, while connected to the equalists, seems populated to a good extent by regular people. I never found Korra a particularly good "Hero" in the series, because rather than an X-Man, using her powers to help those that hate and fear them (Which isn't even a problem in Avatar), she uses her powers to help her group.

Additionally, having ones bending removed is treated as a horrifying consequence, but it's exactly how everyone else has to live, and we don't see much sympathy for that.

 

[Majinash]

It did, and that could be good, except Korra uses her powers like a bully frequently, and the state does use a police force of benders to attack non benders, including raiding a dojo, which, while connected to the equalists, seems populated to a good extent by regular people. I never found Korra a particularly good "Hero" in the series, because rather than an X-Man, using her powers to help those that hate and fear them (Which isn't even a problem in Avatar), she uses her powers to help her group.

Korra doesn't use her powers like a bully, she uses her powers like a 15 year old: poorly.

The state uses a force of benders to attack non benders? yes, they do. Just like sometimes in my country the state uses a force of police with guns to arrest people without guns. Are the police not allowed to use benders to arrest terrorists? Do they have to form a group of non-benders with swords so it seems more fair?

And Korra doesn't only help her group... the single largest theme in the show has been that Korra helps people despite them not liking her.

Evil council member with a plot to take over the city? Korra fights him. Evil bloodbender leading a terrorist group also attempting to take over the city? Korra fights him. Korra is exactly like the X-men in that she uses her powers to help people even when those people hate her.

Additionally, having ones bending removed is treated as a horrifying consequence, but it's exactly how everyone else has to live, and we don't see much sympathy for that.

You don't see how different that is? So if someone decided that everyone with an IQ over 140 needed to be "equalized" that would be perfectly fine? I mean, the rest of the world has to live like that, why shouldn't the smart people too?

Lets not forget that bending fuels most of how that world works. Omashu moves goods with earth benders. Lighting benders power republic city. Metal benders have a city made of metal. Is it evil do defend a bender's bending?

 

[Vault101]

Additionally, having ones bending removed is treated as a horrifying consequence, but it's exactly how everyone else has to live, and we don't see much sympathy for that.

I havent seen the show (or even gotten around to the original last airbender)

but the first thing would be the fact they have no right to remove something youre born with, to remove something thats part of you, I don't take a hockey stick to a sprinters knees just because he can run faster than me and most people


it just doesn't sit well with me at all....almost like (as much I might get shit for this) rape...almost like rape.
I really don't like x-mon plots and at least (what ive seen) of Avatar the last airbender it avoided all that crap...

Saw. Cherish your life! But only after it's been threatened by a serial killer!

[i/]I am totally justified in judging you and "punshing" you for it! via horrific torture devices![/i]

 

[Vicarious Reality]

well, to be fair to Bolt thrower, and to ease any guilty feelings,[/spoiler]

Ah, yeah

Spoiler: Stuff like this too, guess the band

War on our hands, war on our minds
Beat on the drums, beaten our hopes
Nothing is left, nothing is gained
Angry at one, angry at all

World in Agony, World in pain
World in Anger, World of shame

The error of man, the error of faith
Shaping tomorrow, destroying today
Nothing ahead, nothing to be
Anger is one, anger is all

World in Agony, World in pain
World in Anger, Word insane

Cursing ourselves, causing our death
Abusing the earth, it's coming apart
Can we undo, what we have done
Before we undo, what we become

The earth is bitter
The earth is black
What have we done
There's no going back

Spoiler: To be honest i have few guilty feels

To suffer myself, to be whipped by rods
burned with fire, or killed with steel...
If I disobey...

In times of plague, famine and death
a fantastic clamour raises from the coliseum
the circus maximus under an overwhelming sun
welcome the silver-armoured barbarian horde

Overtrained gladiators thrown in the arena
alongst chained lions and phaetonic aurigas
acclaimed by the crowd, idolized as mightiest gods
they brandish their weapons, transcending the greedy punters

By times of triumph, decadence and impericide
the chariots mark forever the sand ring with their wheels
shame to the last one, honour and pride for the son chosen
while gladiators walk now from shadows to their fate

Supreme machines whoe spectacle is primordial
torture and "To the death" have never existed
satisfied or repaid, are unknown words
neither lowered, nor raised thumbs...

"Sold then bought as interestless things
my still in the art of fighting
my strength in the will of survival
child, I soon learn the Dictum Primeval..."

Neither whiplashes or insults prevent me
to be entangled in the revenge spiral
one day, the gathering'll scand my grade
Quia nominor Opplomakus

Ave Imperator, Morituri te salutant
The opplon strongly hold, we brave our combat
Helios smashes us with solar might
But we must play this ever-cheated game

Moved as vulgar pawns on a circular sand chessboard
we are human bishops handled by emperor's attractions
The fantastic clamour raises again on the arena
in times of plague, famine and death

Slave...Slave then deity
Grandiose...Grandiose destiny
Dictum...Dictum Primeval
Law...Law of survival

By times of triumph, decadence and impericide
the chariots mark forever the sand ring with their wheels
shame to the last one, honour and for the son chosen
while gladiators walk now from shadows to their fate

Supreme machines whose spectacle is primordial
torture and "To the death" have never existed
satisfied or repaid, are unknown words
neither lowered, nor raised thumbs...

"Sold then bought as interestless things
my still in the art of fighting
my strength in the will of survival
child, I soon learn the Dictum Primeval..."

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Gangsta Rap music, ya know like NWA... oh and Eminem.

Hmm, probably anything by Grand Supreme Blood Court (Dutch death metal band). While the lyrics are mostly written in a humorous manner, the underlying theme is pretty real, I think. A lot of torturing and executing of undesirable members of society like murderers and rapists, et cetera. As someone against capital punishment, it rubs me up the wrong way a little, though the lyrics are certainly well written.

kinda of like Eminem

I know that "its just his persona" might seem a reasonable defense...but I get the impression the guy has (or had) enough baggage to make me think he reeeeaaally has some issues with women, I mean not just he "usual" mysogany is rap but he actually has issues

He probably does. Father left, he was raised by an abusive mother. But he's also got a daughter no?

I just don't think he's some monster filled with hate like the LGBT try to say that he is.

It's really like impossible to defend, it's just art. He just makes it, it's on us to interpret it and determine it's value.

 

[Sarah Kerrigan]

Devil in Jersey City by Coheed and Cambria. Basically the lyrics are a scene in the Armory Wars story from when a character get's...assaulted. I'll just say that. Eeks.

Scary thing is it's a fucking catchy song though.

 

[Johnny Impact]

[b/]The Incredibles[/b]
don't try and be special CAUSE YOU AIN'T!

Actually that was the villain's philosophy. Sure, Elasti-Girl tiredly tells her super-kid that "everyone is special," but she's just trying to raise her child to respect others. Mr Incredible has the right idea: If you have a talent, you should never submit to others' low expectations.

The Matrix showed us that multiple murders and terrorist-style infrastructure attacks are perfectly okay as long as they are done in service to a cause that would drag the whole human race down to the sewers, where they'd dress in rags and eat mucus.

Dexter and The Boondock Saints. Mass murder is fine as long as you only kill bad people. (Actually, I'm not 100% sure I disagree with that one....)

Ready Player One. Spending your whole existence in a video game will mean you are the only one with the skills to save the world!

The Last Starfighter for the exact same reason.

Uncharted. You can blaze a trail of destruction across the globe, amassing a body count greater than the WTC bombers, your every destination reduced to scorched furrows filled with spent brass and the shattered corpses of eminently disposable non-white races.....but as long as you do it with a quip and a plucky grin you're still the lovable hero.

 

[Grach]

Beyond: Two Souls

Life's got you down? Feeling suicidal? Then just kill yourself! Death is philosophically a 1000 times better than life!*


*This was written by a french hack. If you DO feel suicidal, seek psychological help.