Thinking outloud about the direction of FF combat

[Glongpre]

lol what a mess this is...

Sooooo, who else thought the Legend of Dragoon addition system was fun, and would like to see given another try in a new game?

 

[immortalfrieza]

If your you're so utterly, blatantly obviously correct that your first post was more than enough to convince anybody, then why have literally all of the replies you've gotten to that line of thought been disagreeing with you?

It's the same reason some people believe the Earth is flat despite any and all evidence to the contrary. People have taken the position that Turned Based Combat as better in any way whatever despite that position couldn't possibly be more demonstrably false long before they ever showed up on this thread, that's why. I should have recognized this at my first reply but I was naively acting under the assumption that they actually wanted to have a discussion and thus intended to actually be reasonable.

 

[09philj]

If your you're so utterly, blatantly obviously correct that your first post was more than enough to convince anybody, then why have literally all of the replies you've gotten to that line of thought been disagreeing with you?

It's the same reason some people believe the Earth is flat despite any and all evidence to the contrary. People have taken the position that Turned Based Combat as better in any way whatever despite that position couldn't possibly be more demonstrably false long before they ever showed up on this thread, that's why. I should have recognized this at my first reply but I was naively acting under the assumption that they actually wanted to have a discussion and thus intended to actually be reasonable.

We don't take it as better, we take it as an alternative. You are the flat earther here. Take your opinion anywhere and you'll mostly get the same derision we gave, even from people who don't like turn based combat, because they understand subjectivity.

 

[ManutheBloodedge]

If your you're so utterly, blatantly obviously correct that your first post was more than enough to convince anybody, then why have literally all of the replies you've gotten to that line of thought been disagreeing with you?

It's the same reason some people believe the Earth is flat despite any and all evidence to the contrary. People have taken the position that Turned Based Combat as better in any way whatever despite that position couldn't possibly be more demonstrably false long before they ever showed up on this thread, that's why. I should have recognized this at my first reply but I was naively acting under the assumption that they actually wanted to have a discussion and thus intended to actually be reasonable.

Who on this thread said Turned Based Combat is better? We say it is different, neither better nor worse than Action RPG combat. Again, the only one with a better/worse rethoric is you. Maybe you should change your username to Movie Projector.

 

[ManutheBloodedge]

lol what a mess this is...

Sooooo, who else thought the Legend of Dragoon addition system was fun, and would like to see given another try in a new game?

Sorry for derailing your thread a bit. I never played Legend of Dragoon, but in ferm of new systems I really liked Braving/Defaulting in Bravely Default. Just a simple core mechanic that was really well applied to the combat system and made it feel familiar and fresh at the same time. No wonder they named the game after it. What exactly was the addition system about? Are there modern counterparts?

 

[Glongpre]

I never played Legend of Dragoon, but in ferm of new systems I really liked Braving/Defaulting in Bravely Default. Just a simple core mechanic that was really well applied to the combat system and made it feel familiar and fresh at the same time. No wonder they named the game after it. What exactly was the addition system about? Are there modern counterparts?

I don't think there are any modern counterparts, but I could be wrong. I don't think I have ever seen another game try and copy it. I guess the closest I can think of is Lost Odyssey, just because there is an active element when you attack.

It isn't anything revolutionary, and it is kinda cheesy, but that is why I like it so much. Reminds me of Street Fighter or DBZ and how they say the attack they are doing, and it is equally funny and cool.

There isn't much to it really, they just tried to make the attack command more engaging. The addition system makes each attack command perform a combo, however, you need to press in time with the animation, as if you were performing the combo yourself. A video would show it better:

Spoiler: Additions

I haven't played Bravely Default. What did that system add to the mix?

EDIT: Oh I forgot that enemies will sometimes counter your string, so it changes the timing up and you need to adjust or else you will be damaged and it will end your turn.

 

[ManutheBloodedge]

I never played Legend of Dragoon, but in ferm of new systems I really liked Braving/Defaulting in Bravely Default. Just a simple core mechanic that was really well applied to the combat system and made it feel familiar and fresh at the same time. No wonder they named the game after it. What exactly was the addition system about? Are there modern counterparts?

I don't think there are any modern counterparts, but I could be wrong. I don't think I have ever seen another game try and copy it. I guess the closest I can think of is Lost Odyssey, just because there is an active element when you attack.

It isn't anything revolutionary, and it is kinda cheesy, but that is why I like it so much. Reminds me of Street Fighter or DBZ and how they say the attack they are doing, and it is equally funny and cool.

There isn't much to it really, they just tried to make the attack command more engaging. The addition system makes each attack command perform a combo, however, you need to press in time with the animation, as if you were performing the combo yourself. A video would show it better:

Spoiler: Additions

I haven't played Bravely Default. What did that system add to the mix?

EDIT: Oh I forgot that enemies will sometimes counter your string, so it changes the timing up and you need to adjust or else you will be damaged and it will end your turn.

I might be wrong here, but the addition system looks an awful lot like what the Paper Mario / Mario & Luigi games are doing, you might want to check them out. (Be aware however, Super Paper Mario is not turnbased. Just try Paper Mario: The Thousand year door, the common consensus seems to be that it is the best of the bunch. If you don't have a Gamecube lying around, I would recommend Mario & Luigi: Bowsers Inside Story for the DS)

Bravely Default basically did something really simple, but very clever. They gave you Brave Points, you would get one every turn, and most standard actions like attacking took one point. Now, the clever part is that you could Brave and Default. Default was your standard Defense option, with the difference that Defaulting would give you a Brave Point (Well to be perfectly honest it just was your only option that did not consume one, but that is just semantics). But Braving allowed you to essentially get an extra Round at the cost of an Brave point. So you could Default one turn, then attack twice the second one. You can store up to four points and attack 4 times a turn that way. But the really ingenious thing is that you are allowed to use more Brave points that your char currently had. You could go into negative points, which would leave your char or even the whole party defenseless for the next turns. So you really had to time your usage of Brave points, and coupled with the facts that some skills took more than one point to execute and that some enemies could also Brave and Default, paired with a great job system made this one the best turn based battle systems ever to be concieved IMO. Can you tell I am really excited for the sequel that comes out this month?

Someone else posted a video showcasing Bravely Default combat earlier in this thread in an effort to shut up this weird bloke with his 10 foot stiffy for Action RPGs, that should help illustrate it a bit.

 

[Lightspeaker]

Yeah I'm...not going to touch that whole thing with immortalfrieza because frankly I think they're trolling. Presenting blatantly non-factual things as absolute and objective fact to get a rise out of people and then yelling at everyone. It is literally impossible for an action RPG to do everything a turn based RPG can do, because you physically do not have the time to do it in; that should be absolutely self-evident and I'm staggered that I even have to actually say that out loud because its like saying the sky is blue its that obvious. Better to just block the posts and move on.


As far as Legend of Dragoon goes I seem to remember playing a demo of that years ago and it was a lot of fun. But I never really felt the whole 'addition' system really added up to an awful lot. It was like in Final Fantasy VIII where you had to press a button at the right time on a physical attack with a gunblade to fire at the same time as the hit and do extra damage. Felt like just something thrown in a bit arbitrarily.

Then again I never really liked Vagrant Story either with that whole system of timed chain attacks there, so I guess that stuff has never really been my thing (its one of the things I'm not a huge fan of with Omega Quintet to be honest, there are like...extra attack and defence interrupts from the 'trainee manager' male lead and I never feel like I have the time to decide properly whether to use it or not).

Bravely Default was an interesting take on the system but I kinda felt that it was a bit...I dunno. I feel like more could be done with it.

I've not played Darkest Dungeon yet but it looks pretty cool as a system. Attacks and positioning are super important and status effects are played up to a much more significant level than in other turn based games which makes managing your party more complex.

 

[Glongpre]

I might be wrong here, but the addition system looks an awful lot like what the Paper Mario / Mario & Luigi games are doing, you might want to check them out.

I did beat Superstar Saga, which is maybe my favourite Mario game! It was so fun, I really liked that combat system. Being able to dodge every attack was a really fun and rewarding element. The final Cackleta boss was challenging but so incredibly rewarding to beat. It really incorporated skill well.
It is pretty close to the same as LOD, maybe that's why I like it so much.

Now that you have me remembering this game, I want the defensive aspect of M&L to be used by FF as well. I can imagine how cool it would be to fight Bahamut and being able to dodge his attacks. It would add skill, and lessen FF's reliance on heal spam.

Bravely Default basically did something really simple, but very clever. They gave you Brave Points, you would get one every turn, and most standard actions like attacking took one point. Now, the clever part is that you could Brave and Default. Default was your standard Defense option, with the difference that Defaulting would give you a Brave Point (Well to be perfectly honest it just was your only option that did not consume one, but that is just semantics). But Braving allowed you to essentially get an extra Round at the cost of an Brave point. So you could Default one turn, then attack twice the second one. You can store up to four points and attack 4 times a turn that way. But the really ingenious thing is that you are allowed to use more Brave points that your char currently had. You could go into negative points, which would leave your char or even the whole party defenseless for the next turns. So you really had to time your usage of Brave points, and coupled with the facts that some skills took more than one point to execute and that some enemies could also Brave and Default, paired with a great job system made this one the best turn based battle systems ever to be concieved IMO. Can you tell I am really excited for the sequel that comes out this month?

Hmmm, yea that is simple but can add a lot of planning and strategy to the turn based model. I think that is quite a genius idea actually.

 

[ManutheBloodedge]

I might be wrong here, but the addition system looks an awful lot like what the Paper Mario / Mario & Luigi games are doing, you might want to check them out.

I did beat Superstar Saga, which is maybe my favourite Mario game! It was so fun, I really liked that combat system. Being able to dodge every attack was a really fun and rewarding element. The final Cackleta boss was challenging but so incredibly rewarding to beat. It really incorporated skill well.
It is pretty close to the same as LOD, maybe that's why I like it so much.

Now that you have me remembering this game, I want the defensive aspect of M&L to be used by FF as well. I can imagine how cool it would be to fight Bahamut and being able to dodge his attacks. It would add skill, and lessen FF's reliance on heal spam.

Bravely Default basically did something really simple, but very clever. They gave you Brave Points, you would get one every turn, and most standard actions like attacking took one point. Now, the clever part is that you could Brave and Default. Default was your standard Defense option, with the difference that Defaulting would give you a Brave Point (Well to be perfectly honest it just was your only option that did not consume one, but that is just semantics). But Braving allowed you to essentially get an extra Round at the cost of an Brave point. So you could Default one turn, then attack twice the second one. You can store up to four points and attack 4 times a turn that way. But the really ingenious thing is that you are allowed to use more Brave points that your char currently had. You could go into negative points, which would leave your char or even the whole party defenseless for the next turns. So you really had to time your usage of Brave points, and coupled with the facts that some skills took more than one point to execute and that some enemies could also Brave and Default, paired with a great job system made this one the best turn based battle systems ever to be concieved IMO. Can you tell I am really excited for the sequel that comes out this month?

Hmmm, yea that is simple but can add a lot of planning and strategy to the turn based model. I think that is quite a genius idea actually.

I know right? I enjoy the Mario RPGs, but they approach the Turn based system from the exact opposite end. They made it more involved and skill based, while Bravely Default made it even more strategic and and thoughtfull. Both approaches are equaly valid, the just require different skill sets and moods.