This is Why Criticizing Anita Sarkheesian is Irrelevant and Pointless

Ablestron

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When she gets passive aggressive and acts like Microsoft are doing a bad thing by not having a female protagonist that's the bullshit. There's nothing wrong with 50 developers making 50 games with male protagonists. They are not obligated to make games she likes. That completely goes against the idea that games are artistic statements.
Why is it that people call what she said bullshit and passive aggressive when there are so many other statements about the same conference that draw similar criticism?

Ive seen so many articles the past few days on how bored journalists were with all the shooter, sports, and car games Microsoft was displaying at their conference, many of which said similarly blunt statements about their lack of enthusiasm for what Microsoft is publishing/developing over twitter, none of which got the blow back that Anita's did. Both point out Microsoft isn't taking any assumed risks, some journalists also pointed out the all white male protagonist cast, but only Anita is getting pulled aside for her statement.

Anita was just stating her opinion like all the journalists were, and if the journalists are speaking about a larger trend of developers and publishers unwilling to bend to the times, or take risks, doesn't Anita's statement that there were no female protagonists in their line up match up with what the journalists are also saying? No developer or publisher is obligated to make the games journalists and feminists want to see, but that doesn't mean that the opinions of the feminist and the game journalist are unfounded bullshit.
 

generals3

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Ablestron said:
When she says context matters in the second quote she's talking about a different form of context than in the first. The first quote is about the narrative context. See that she mentions "fictional narrative" in the first quote; it means the context within the actual story; example, the reason Zelda is kidnapped is because of her piece of the triforce; anita is arguing that even though the damsel in distress trope works within the "narrative context" that does not exempt it from being an example of the trope.

In the second quote she is talking about the context of its formation, why & how they wrote it the way they did, ect.. (see that she says "how and why they're written")An example of this would be the development & writing decisions made that turned the game Dinosaur Planet into Star Fox Adventures.
But this raises an other question, how can she even claim to know "why" they're written? And i'd say the "how" is pretty much the same as the narrative context. The thing is that kind of backpedaling makes her point obnoxiously "vague". Her points are flying all over the planet. At one point it's "we can enjoy games but still be critical of them" than it's "writing such stories is dangerously irresponsible" and "it reinforces toxic views" (kinda contradicts the "we can enjoy them" doesn't it? It's obvious she doesn't wants us to enjoy it)

Don't confuse what a person's supporters say with what they are actually saying. They are not one in the same mind, a supporter of Anita could easily be missing the point entirely and go off the deep end, but that doesn't make their actions Anita's responsibility. I support her but Im obviously not saying the same things that the people you mention are saying am I? Ranking Anita with the silliest and most idiotic of those who support her is incredibly unfair.
Not really because even the most idiotic of her supporters has yet to reach her level of idiocy. I'm sorry but anyone who watches all her videos has to come to the conclusion she's either an attention whore, dillusional or an idiot. The amount of nonsense coming out of that woman breaks all records. If at least she had charisma and vitality I could enjoy her as a comedian like i did with Glenn Beck. (Because taking her seriously is just impossible)

Of course men have a right to be represented in games, and in many ways, they still aren't fully; how often do you see a black male protagonist over a white one for example? The reason your not racist for wanting better female representation is because it does not exist on the same level as male representation. So the feminist argument goes like this "if men have a right to be represented in this medium, don't women also?"
"Right"? Sure you have that right, nobody prevents you from making your own game. Whether or not others decide to do what you want however isn't a right, it's a privilege. This is capitalism, not communism.

Again, like Ive said before, Anita isn't mad at any one game or developer for the over all trend, she simply wants more to take the risk and try and represent women better. And when large conglomerates like Microsoft refuse to budge out side of their idea that men are still the only demographic worth aiming for then feminists are within their right to call them on that without being sexist against men.
She sure is mad actually. The way she treats their work suggests exactly that. And saying they're acting dangerously irresponsibly suggest as certain amount of anger. And no feminists don't have that right, they have the right to say it but they also have the right to be criticized for that. There is nothing wrong with wanting more female protagonists but the way she approaches the whole thing is plainly wrong, this isn't a social issue, this is a matter of people not getting what they want.


To put it plainly, saying women need to be represented more does not mean representing men is wrong.
But it is relatively sexist. Why do they "need" to be represented more? That you want them to be sure, but why is it needed? Are penises bad? Are tacos so much better we need more of them? If not why is there a NEED for it?


The argument real feminists give isn't "Gender doesn't matter" its "Gender shouldn't matter". Meaning, no one should have to raise awareness about a lack of gender representation, but unfortunately we DO, because there is an imbalance in how women are portrayed in comparison to men, as well as how often women are portrayed versus how men are portrayed.
Again, if it shouldn't matter than all you should see are humans, not women and men. Not quite there are ya? ;)

Anyway, balance is boring and silly. And if you push this mantra to the extreme we would need to force devs to write more gays, bisexuals, transgenders, jews, muslims, blacks, browns, asians, etc. Characters. Heck you might just as well write a "Political Correctness" manual devs would need to follow. It's that kind of attitude which has resulted in the new C&C being self censored. And that's the kind of things i'd like to keep out of games.
 

generals3

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Ablestron said:
Why do they "need" to be represented more? That you want them to be sure, but why is it needed? Are penises bad? Are tacos so much better we need more of them? If not why is there a NEED for it?
this just sounds like fucking trolling man, its obvious you wouldnt be interested in learning anything if these are the questions you still need answered. Grow up, and do your own fucking research, because Im not going to sit here for hours finding all the articles, and documents, and statistics, and personal accounts, and fucking reasons that would help to convince you that inequality is actually a problem that has yet to be solved and NEEDS solving, just because your too fucking lazy to do the research your self, especially considering that the Google search bar is probably in corner of your screen at this very moment.

Again, if it shouldn't matter than all you should see are humans, not women and men. Not quite there are ya? ;)
the world its self isnt there yet, stop trolling, you fail at it.
I did my research and when it comes to video games it all points towards one thing: you are wrong. All the studies and statistics are very clear: there are a lot more men interested in the games feminists are complaining about. Isn't it normal that as a consequence more attention is given to their desires? The idea of forcing devs to treat a niche market as more important than it is is not social justice or whatever you're lead to believe it is. It's complaining for the sake of it.

And a lot of so called "problems" are usually not as much problems as feminists like to tell us. Inflating statistics, only showing one side of the coin and the idea that something is a problem without any evidence of negative consequences are three common practices among feminists. I'm sorry that i don't just buy what you're saying because it should be "common knowledge".

And the reason why i ask "why" is exactly because i want to learn. There is no need to feel threatened by questions.

This is tiring me out man, a social issue can very well be a matter of people not getting what they want if what they want is a matter of social equality; which is what feminism is, equality between men and women.
Define social equality. Because i'm starting to think you're following the communist idea of "equal outcome". In which case i'll have to strongly disagree with that goal as great supporter of the free market and capitalism.

I support what she supports, gender equality, and that's the issue that should always be peoples concern, not whether or not the person voicing this concern for equality should be the one to voice it.
That couldn't be any more wrong. The person and how the person does it is very relevant. If i want to stop poverty by killing all the poor surely the fact i'm obviously a psycho and want to use mass murder to achieve the goal is relevant? Surely you wouldn't support me just because you like the idea of getting rid of poverty?
Anita's tactics are dangerous for the gaming industry and counter productive. She is trying to use guilt and self censorship to get a "better" female representation. And let's also not forget the precedent this would create. If you can cause the gaming industry to change based on unproven claims and guilt a lot of Jack Thompsons wannabes will have a field day.
 

Brown_Coat117

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Would you guys like to hear an incredibly messed up plot to a book? Of course you do.

A woman is tormented by an arranged marriage to a man she despises. Suddenly she is kidnapped and held for ransom by pirates. At first she finds this situation worse than her previous one until he get involved in a passionate love affair with the first mate of the ship. Instead of paying the ransom her horrible betrothed and father get the navy involved to hunt down the pirates and get her back, so now she and her lover must fight to stay together.

This is just about the most insulting, degrading to women plot that I have ever heard. The woman in this book is twice a damsel, once to her arranged marriage and second to pirates. Then she apparently develops Stockholm syndrome and is effectively raped. This the plot to a romance novel a female co-worker of mine is reading, written by a woman, for the enjoyment of women.

If the damsel premise were so insulting to women why do they write/read this type of shit. I can't think of a video game that was even close to being this bad.

Edit: Sorry I know this is off topic but I had to share
 

Brown_Coat117

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Father Time said:
Stockholm syndrome doesn't remove your ability to consent.
As much as someone is mentally able to consent to a captor in a life threatening situation such as being a hostage taken by pirates. Like I said in my edit far off topic, sorry guys this is the last I shall say of it.
 

Dastardly

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Wyvern65 said:
Amazing how she managed a master's degree in media studies and at the same time is absolutely shocked that when you post something inflamatory on twitter, no matter who you are, you get idiots posting in response. [/sarcasm]
What exactly was "inflammatory" about what she said? She commented that there were no games introduced at the XBone presser featuring women... and the responses were not "I disagree. Here's an example of a game that..." The responses were essentially agreeing and saying this was a good thing.

And the rest were just flat-out attacks at the woman for being a woman. How did anything she said at the start of that warrant that kind of response?
 

Wyvern65

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Not trying to be in the least disrespectful, but I answered those questions in my second post on the first page. I'm willing to expand on anything there you might have a question about, but not interested in just repeating myself.

Cheers.
 

Insanely Asinine

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ninjarafter said:
Wait, I'm confused. In the link she says "Thanks #XboxOne #E3 press conference for revealing to us exactly zero games featuring a female protagonist for the next generation"

But an article on the front page of the Escapist says "Mirror's Edge 2 was announced at the EA E3 2013 press conference moments ago"

So am I missing something here?
You're not missing anything. It's Ana being Ana.
 
Apr 24, 2008
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Gotta laugh.

I read a few pages of this forum before I loaded the actual link to see what she picked out. I was expecting so much worse. These are really very tame.

It makes me smile that she would claim an entitlement issue.
 
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Dastardly said:
Wyvern65 said:
Amazing how she managed a master's degree in media studies and at the same time is absolutely shocked that when you post something inflamatory on twitter, no matter who you are, you get idiots posting in response. [/sarcasm]
What exactly was "inflammatory" about what she said? She commented that there were no games introduced at the XBone presser featuring women... and the responses were not "I disagree. Here's an example of a game that..." The responses were essentially agreeing and saying this was a good thing.

And the rest were just flat-out attacks at the woman for being a woman. How did anything she said at the start of that warrant that kind of response?
For being a woman?

You loaded that one nicely. I don't use twitter, but... I do have some trouble imagining that all of the female users are subject to endless abuse just for being female. I suspect that Anita was selected because of the things she says, which isn't to say the abuse is "right", it's to say that the reasons are different from what you said. The distinction is important, I feel.
 

Dastardly

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Sexual Harassment Panda said:
For being a woman?

You loaded that one nicely. I don't use twitter, but... I do have some trouble imagining that all of the female users are subject to endless abuse just for being female. I suspect that Anita was selected because of the things she says, which isn't to say the abuse is "right", it's to say that the reasons are different from what you said. The distinction is important, I feel.
You misunderstand. Folks did not seek her out to make the comments simply because she is "a woman." What I mean is that the comments themselves, when they are choosing her bad qualities to target, are almost exclusively focused on the fact that she is a woman.

I could, say, hate you for being, I dunno, Canadian or something. Or I could hate you because you scratched my car and lit my dog on fire, but then all of my ranting and raving are about you being Canadian. I should be ranting about you doing the awful things you did (or the things I feel are awful, at least)... but instead, my comments are focusing on an unrelated fact.

This would convey, to the casual observer, that 1) I don't fully understand the reason for my own anger, and 2) I really, really have some deep fear or loathing toward Canadians.
 

Stavros Dimou

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Moonlight Butterfly said:
She posted this today.

I must say I like the fact Princess Peach is playable too :) and dat cat suit <3

http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/52752086803/new-video-game-trailers-featuring-women-at-e3-2013
"Peach is playable in a Super Mario game for the first time in 25 years" WHAT ???
OMG... OMG...
She's not even a gamer. Where has she been all those years ? This is just not real,its a lie.
It would be more believable if she said extra terrestials are walking among us.
Only non-gamers can take her seriously,those who are completely ignorant with video games.
What she says is outright lies that offend our intellingence.
 
Apr 24, 2008
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Dastardly said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
For being a woman?

You loaded that one nicely. I don't use twitter, but... I do have some trouble imagining that all of the female users are subject to endless abuse just for being female. I suspect that Anita was selected because of the things she says, which isn't to say the abuse is "right", it's to say that the reasons are different from what you said. The distinction is important, I feel.
You misunderstand. Folks did not seek her out to make the comments simply because she is "a woman." What I mean is that the comments themselves, when they are choosing her bad qualities to target, are almost exclusively focused on the fact that she is a woman.

I could, say, hate you for being, I dunno, Canadian or something. Or I could hate you because you scratched my car and lit my dog on fire, but then all of my ranting and raving are about you being Canadian. I should be ranting about you doing the awful things you did (or the things I feel are awful, at least)... but instead, my comments are focusing on an unrelated fact.

This would convey, to the casual observer, that 1) I don't fully understand the reason for my own anger, and 2) I really, really have some deep fear or loathing toward Canadians.
I'm not sure if I misunderstood or if you mis-spoke, to be honest.

The issue I have with claims like yours is that I think they're massively assumptious. I think your example is fine in a self-contained sense, but doesn't apply for good reasons.

People have humour, humour doesn't always translate well in text or to specific audiences. It'd be awesome if humour was universal, but it's not. It's best we try not to assume the worst in others, don't you think?

When her shtick is feminism, people trolling her picking gendered insults isn't coming out of nowhere... it's related. It's like insulting Jesus to annoy a Christian. There's a reason to pick what is picked.

Also... these posts aren't even that bad. Many of them make decent points about existing audiences and market pressures. I'm not sure you can explain it away as "endemic male-entitlement" or whatever...

We're probably all just pissing in the wind. That's life.
 

Schadrach

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comraderichard said:
Internet =/= gamers. As much as I agree that a lot of the comments lobbed at her are vile, she's not special in this regard, because this happens constantly.
^ This is truth.

comraderichard said:
I've had a fair number of people wish death on me and my family because of my political views, a lot of other people I know have to put up with condescending pricks constantly, or outright get forced into confrontations.
It took politics for you to get death threats? Damn. I've gotten them for talking about WoW class balance before. To be fair, the only place I'm willing to talk much about politics any more are the Escapist P&R forum, since people are actually pretty civil down there.

comraderichard said:
There are entire websites (4chan, Encyclopedia Dramatica, etc) devoted to spewing hate speech specifically tailored to get under someone's skin.
Yes, there are. I'd ask anyone who believes that Anita Sarkeesian got some sort of unusual extreme sexist attack that reveals underlying misogyny on the internet especially from gamers, rather than a mild to moderate case of pissing off 4chan to check out Encyclopedia Dramatica on an empty stomach. Possibly look up Alex Wuori (the guy the FOX Anonymous piece was about) or Chris-chan if you want some examples.

Mareon said:
Look, here is a thought: Maybe the Trolls are actually human beings that should never ever and never be excused to write the bile that they write for any reason.
Who ever *excuses* trolls? What I see a lot more of is accepting trolls as a fact of life that one has to deal with, because that's essentially what they are. You build a shelter to keep from getting rained on, you bring in moderators to deal with trolls. Both can be flooded into meaninglessness.

Ablestron said:
Of course men have a right to be represented in games, and in many ways, they still aren't fully; how often do you see a black male protagonist over a white one for example? The reason your not racist for wanting better female representation is because it does not exist on the same level as male representation. So the feminist argument goes like this "if men have a right to be represented in this medium, don't women also?" Again, like Ive said before, Anita isn't mad at any one game or developer for the over all trend, she simply wants more to take the risk and try and represent women better. And when large conglomerates like Microsoft refuse to budge out side of their idea that men are still the only demographic worth aiming for then feminists are within their right to call them on that without being sexist against men.

To put it plainly, saying women need to be represented more does not mean representing men is wrong.
No one has a "right" to representation in any kind of media.. No one is entitled to a certain measure of being depicted in artistic works of any variety, let alone being depicted the way they want to be (and/or no other way). The long and short answer to issues of representation in media is to vote with your wallet and/or start creating yourself if you don't like the existing depictions. Or just whine about it and pretend that people have a right to specific media depictions like Anita does.
 

Insanely Asinine

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TomPreston said:
FieryTrainwreck said:
Her arrogance is in her conflating the failings of the forum (the internet) with actual opposition of her views.

If you tweet about how lynching people on the basis of skin color is abhorrent, you will receive an endless series of terrifyingly racist responses. This is not indicative of anything other than the internet's ability to generate attention-seeking assholes.

I guarantee a majority of the people tweeting her with offensive remarks know, objectively, that there are some gender equality issues in gaming and the world at large. They aren't voicing legitimate disagreement. They are pushing her buttons. I believe she knows this, and that she is using it to fuel her "career". From a purely capitalist point of view, I guess that's alright. It just doesn't do much for me intellectually.
Um... Even if it's a ploy, the people still falling FOR the ploy are still being racist/homophobic/sexist/whatever. That's kinda enough proof as it is that these people still exist and are still very very vocal.
It's typical troll rhetoric. A troll trying to out troll a troll. Of if said troll doesn't know that someone is a troll they are being fed to what Know Your Meme calls a "Cannibal" Troll. If you take any trolling seriously you are just feeding the troll and making said troll a successful troll. Of course if one troll is successful congratulations you are now a feeding ground for trolls because said trolls roam in packs.
 

Paradoxrifts

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The_Scrivener said:
http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/52673540142/twitter-vs-female-protagonists-in-video-games

She can pretty much film herself juggling fruit in her basement and as long as the title of her video touches on how much sexism there is in the culture, then she has a legitimate point. I don't want to imply that criticism of her points/videos is invalid or unwelcome on all accounts, but breaking down her style of delivery sort of strikes me as imprudent and short-sighted, like trying to find grammatical errors in Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream Speech."

And in the meanwhile she uses electronic equipment to write and record videos of herself reciting her droll, opinionated & bitter middle-class white girl angst; equipment, which is only made affordable for her to purchase because poor non-English speaking people cobble it together for pennies in a factory far enough away that she can concentrate on how all of her first world problems are dreadfully inconvenient for her to suffer through.

Yeah.

Like I do get why some people might complain, often bitterly, about how the free market typically overlooks the undisputed fact that they're an ultra special unique snow flake who goes against type. I can see why people might be annoyed that businesses regularly engage in almost futile industrial blood letting by competing too vigorously for the largest demographic, while smaller demographics miss out on representation entirely.

But arguing about representations of women in popular culture isn't a real social justice issue. It's a social inconvenience issue brought up by people who have completely lost touch of how harsh reality can be, or alternatively have been warped by seeing how harsh reality can in fact be, but then have been brainwashed into believing that popular media is to blame it. Because believing popular culture is to blame is easier for some people to believe in then the reality that some people are just physiologically more inclined to be absolute shitheads to other people.