This is Why Criticizing Anita Sarkheesian is Irrelevant and Pointless

[The_Scrivener]

http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/52673540142/twitter-vs-female-protagonists-in-video-games

She can pretty much film herself juggling fruit in her basement and as long as the title of her video touches on how much sexism there is in the culture, then she has a legitimate point. I don't want to imply that criticism of her points/videos is invalid or unwelcome on all accounts, but breaking down her style of delivery sort of strikes me as imprudent and short-sighted, like trying to find grammatical errors in Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream Speech."

 

[Erttheking]

Have to disagree with you there. Everything is open to criticism it's how things improve.

Also you have started a flame war, I hope you realize that.

 

[The_Scrivener]

Wars are how equal rights are won sometimes. So yeah, I'm fine with that.

My argument is that redefining our hard-on throbbing hate-spreading culture is a lot more important/worthy of discussion than analyzing Sarkheesian's camera angles or cue card placement.

 

[comraderichard]

I was going to agree to you until you compared a feminist who has no right to be the voice of feminism in gaming for various legitimate reasons to a guy who spent his life fighting out in the streets for equal rights for minorities and died because of it, real freaking tasteless, bub.

 

[The_Scrivener]

I didn't compare the two people. I compared two situations where the greater issue was of obviously greater importance than nitpicking the pointless details/minutia that people get caught up in.

 

[comraderichard]

Except comparing the serious problem of how Africans, Asians, Hispanics, etc were horribly mistreated and sometimes outright murdered based solely on their physical appearance is in no way comparable to the use of sexist cliches in video gaming. Being uncomfortable with the portrayal of one sex in a video game isn't the same as having a system that treated you as sub-human and expendable, on top of this no one should be above criticism. You could be the Messiah reincarnated but you'd still have to put up with the criticism, and I do mean criticism, not hate.
I am a male feminist but I just feel like Anita doesn't do a good job of representing the feminist movement in terms of pushing for more creative, egalitarian works. She's known to resort to insults (regressive crap), she's relying on confirmation bias (start with the conclusion, find information to validate it, when the scientific method dictates you need to do it the other way around - find info, reach conclusion.), and taking scenes from video games that were either hated or taken out of context is not the same as being academic. If she were legitimately behaving like a feminist professor, I'd not have an issue, but it feels less like she's trying to get a point across and more like she wants to say what she and others want to hear. Preaching to the choir.
A lot of folks think trying to change someone's mind is an exercise in futility, I do not, so long as you remain calm, intelligent, and don't take things personally. I don't have an issue with Anita's views, she's right, but I just don't think she's the right person to be doing a documentary on how the industry is male-dominated and caters to males.

 

[fibchopkin]

I think it's a bit silly to criticize her camera angles and video themes as well, but I think people point them out because alot of what she says is confrontational and hostile. She makes people feel defensive, and many people resort to childishness when they get defensive. When we feel hurt, we want to lash out at what's hurting us, so we take cheap shots. I suspect that alot of her detractors would not be so vehement if she didn't make them feel as if they were wrong for enjoying the testosterone fueled fantasies in their favorite games and instead advocated for a wider variety of games geared toward females or gender neutral games to go in along with the typical games targeted at young white males. I actually feel that her hostile attitude does more to hinder feminists than help us. Since you brought up MLK Jr, I'd just like to point out that he espoused change through love, understanding, and even if those failed, he was still gentle and nonviolent in his protest. After watching one of Anita's videos, or reading a few of her posts, I get the impression she'd cheerfully light a few chauvinist devs on fire if she thought she could get away with it.

 

[IceForce]

OP, you're just badge fishing here, right? Come on, there's no shame in admitting it.

Anyway, more on-topic; People do have some legitimate criticisms about her, and her series. But you do need to dig through quite a bit of vitriol to find it.

 

[fibchopkin]

I don't have an issue with Anita's views, she's right, but I just don't think she's the right person to be doing a documentary on how the industry is male-dominated and caters to males.

Exactly the way I feel- just far more elegantly stated. Brava! I always get the impression that Anita is more angry than can be helpful in an educational situation.

 

[Wyvern65]

Cynic: And once again Anita somehow manages to be the 'innocent victim' of trolls on the internet.

Amazing how she managed a master's degree in media studies and at the same time is absolutely shocked that when you post something inflamatory on twitter, no matter who you are, you get idiots posting in response. [/sarcasm]

Or maybe she's just someone who understands how the internet works and manages to turn that to her advantage. Like when she trolled 4chan and left her comment section open just long enough for the trolls to show up and paint her as a martyr.

*sighs*

Feminism deserves better than this.

OP: Yeah, maybe we should have a serious discussion about internet trolls and the bile they spew. There are a lot of angry people out there, feeling powerless and uncertain in their own lives. The economy went south and for a lot of folks the last decade hasn't been good. They're looking for someone to blame.

When you're angry and you have nowhere in your own life you can fruitfully direct it, online targets with their high profile and the anonymity internet trolls can hide behind is a pretty explosive combination.

That might have been an interesting discussion. I hope to be proven wrong but I suspect this will just be another standard Anita thread.

 

[FalloutJack]

I'm afraid some criticism must pass, such as not being able to solve a damn thing.

 

[ninjarafter]

Wait, I'm confused. In the link she says "Thanks #XboxOne #E3 press conference for revealing to us exactly zero games featuring a female protagonist for the next generation"

But an article on the front page of the Escapist says "Mirror's Edge 2 was announced at the EA E3 2013 press conference moments ago"

So am I missing something here?

 

[Vrex360]

Wow, what spectacular arseholes.
Seriously those responses are some of the most meanspirited and entitled misogynistic crap I have read in a long time and no there is no justifying that. I don't care if people think she's being 'inflammatory' there is no justifying that, and I don't care if people are just being 'defensive' either. When your response is to literally shout things like 'this ***** makes my dick soft' or 'women don't belong in games' or 'women aren't interesting' or any number of misogynistic slurs you officially lose any right to sympathy because you have shown yourself to be a whiny insecure man child misogynist and Sarkeesian did not not do anything to make you that way, YOU did that to YOURSELF!
As for the idea that Sarkeesian said something inflammatory? Really? Considering all the negative hate surrounding the Xbox One and all the vitriol and angry rants I'm really supposed to believe that 'there are no female protagonists' was so shocking and horrifying and offensive that it warranted people responding like, well, this?
Fuck no, I don't buy that. I don't buy that the idea of a lack of female protagonists being the latest in a long fucking line of angry complaints (as well as said lack of female protagonists being as valid as any of the other complaints)is suddenly the big shocking horrible incendiary remark that the evil Sarkeesian made to these poor innocent little boys who are just so scared and defensive.
Bullshit, this reminds me a lot of the weak ass justifications people used in the Steubenville rape case and while I would never compare the two because of the difference in severity the same still remains, people desperately trying to blame someone else, anyone else for something completely un-defendable that these little shits did themselves.

Anita did not put those words in their mouths nor did she make them carry that kind of hateful attitude around with them, they did it themselves and while I'm not going to say everything Sarkeesian does is without deserving criticism (I'm not going to argue anything about her points at all because that's not my focus) I will say that there is no way, in my mind, that you can blame her for this. She did nothing even close to warranting such a harsh response and the people who acted like self righteous inbred cavemen have only themselves to blame.
This attitude is shitty, it is reprhensible and it cannot be defended and no matter how much bullshitting people may do there is no version of this where that changes.

EDIT: To be clear I'm talking about the twitter responses in the link, not anyone in this thread necessarily. Just thought I would say that now in case a really ugly misunderstanding occurs.

EDIT 2: Please do not quote me anymore, I am calling it quits and will not be getting involved in this debate anymore.

 

[quinquecirrha]

I agree with her general point that there is sexism in games, but I have a lot of problems with the way she's delivered her message so far. But, as much as I hate to say this, she's one of the most prominent voices of feminism in gaming on the internet right now, and even an incompetent voice is still better than none at all. The very fact that so many people react so angrily towards her is serving to demonstrate to the more moderate people that she might actually have a point. And hopefully, people more skilled at examining and discussing the game industry will be able to use her fame as a way to increase their own and actually make some progress towards improving things.

In other words, Anita Sarkheesian is the feminist speaker the internet deserves, but not the one it needs right now. Or she just doesn't know what she's doing. One of the two.

 

[Darks63]

Wait, I'm confused. In the link she says "Thanks #XboxOne #E3 press conference for revealing to us exactly zero games featuring a female protagonist for the next generation"

But an article on the front page of the Escapist says "Mirror's Edge 2 was announced at the EA E3 2013 press conference moments ago"

So am I missing something here?

She prolly just skimmed through E3 articles saw CoD and other type stuff announced and leap to judgement henceforth or she is unaware of the Mirror's Edge games having a female protagonist.

 

[The-Traveling-Bard]

Wow, what spectacular arseholes.
Seriously those responses are some of the most meanspirited and entitled misogynistic crap I have read in a long time and no there is no justifying that. I don't care if people think she's being 'inflammatory' there is no justifying that, and I don't care if people are just being 'defensive' either. When your response is to literally shout things like 'this ***** makes my dick soft' or 'women don't belong in games' or 'women aren't interesting' or any number of misogynistic slurs you officially lose any right to sympathy because you have shown yourself to be a whiny insecure man child misogynist and Sarkeesian did not not do anything to make you that way, YOU did that to YOURSELF!
As for the idea that Sarkeesian said something inflammatory? Really? Considering all the negative hate surrounding the Xbox One and all the vitriol and angry rants I'm really supposed to believe that 'there are no female protagonists' was so shocking and horrifying and offensive that it warranted people responding like, well, this?
Fuck no, I don't buy that. I don't buy that the idea of a lack of female protagonists being the latest in a long fucking line of angry complaints (as well as said lack of female protagonists being as valid as any of the other complaints)is suddenly the big shocking horrible incendiary remark that the evil Sarkeesian made to these poor innocent little boys who are just so scared and defensive.
Bullshit, this reminds me a lot of the weak ass justifications people used in the Steubenville rape case and while I would never compare the two because of the difference in severity the same still remains, people desperately trying to blame someone else, anyone else for something completely un-defendable that these little shits did themselves.

Anita did not put those words in their mouths nor did she make them carry that kind of hateful attitude around with them, they did it themselves and while I'm not going to say everything Sarkeesian does is without deserving criticism (I'm not going to argue anything about her points at all because that's not my focus) I will say that there is no way, in my mind, that you can blame her for this. She did nothing even close to warranting such a harsh response and the people who acted like self righteous inbred cavemen have only themselves to blame.
This attitude is shitty, it is reprhensible and it cannot be defended and no matter how much bullshitting people may do there is no version of this where that changes.

EDIT: To be clear I'm talking about the twitter responses in the link, not anyone in this thread necessarily. Just thought I would say that now in case a really ugly misunderstanding occurs.

1. Welcome to the fucking internet.
2. First rule of the internet. Don't feed the fucking trolls.
3. Everyone will say anything online because they can without punishment.
4. Taking anything, anyone on the internet for 100% truth is stupid

Either Anita is the dumbest person on earth, or she is the smartest person on earth. Which I vote for dumbest because she herself is sexist and has no meaning of the word "context.". What does she expect from youtube and twitter? HAS SHE SEE YOUTUBE AND TWITTER POSTS BEFORE SHE JOINED THEM? Did she really expect people from these two websites to have any real logical thoughts? Even when someone does have logical debates against she refuses to answer and shoves them aside.

Anita acts like she is some special victim/target of hate just because she is a women. She is a target of hate and anger because she is a person on youtube claiming something is sexist because she doesn't understand *context*.

Seriously watch some of her youtubes videos some time. She turned a loving romantic song into something that's supposedly "sexist".

So until Anita learns context, meaning, and learn just because she says it that way that doesn't mean she is right. I will continue to bash on her. (Intelligently at least.)

But all the jokes about her being in the kitchen, kitchen video games, etc. Is pointed at her just to get her angry which she is buying into it all the time. She acts like these people are REALLY SEXIST when they are just insulting her out of anger. (Which we ALL do.)

If I said a sexist joke. Does that make me sexist? Nope.

In Anita's eyes it is.

Why?

She has no understanding of my favorite context!

PS.
I have a feeling any time Anita will open her mouth people will just insult her, because you know. She is a complete idiot and has no concept of ... context.

So ANYTHING she does will probably negative impact even if she was *ever right* which will never, ever happen in a 1000 years.

My bones will probably turn into dust and mix with the ground before Anita is ever right on anything."

P.S.S

I'm just waiting for her to say Game of Thrones is sexist. I am surprise she hasn't yet to be honest. But when she does. I am going after her blood. Because if she says ANY federal setting is sexist. I am just going to out right kill her for her stupidity.

I always told my grandmother I wanted my job to be a person who stands on news station holding up a "NO SHIT" sign every time they say something silly.

Obama crying for the death of children?
NO SHIT.
Why is this even news?

I get it would be news if he was laughing about it, but not crying about it.

 

[Wyvern65]

Wow, what spectacular arseholes.
Seriously those responses are some of the most meanspirited and entitled misogynistic crap I have read in a long time and no there is no justifying that.

I agree completely those posts are /vile/ and in a perfect world no one would ever be subjected to them. I hope no one reading my own post thinks I was in any way supporting that level of vitriol. I went on to try and posit some of the reasons I believe people generally act like jerks on the internet. Reasons aren't excuses.

However about Anita . . . .

Did you note the part where the posts were self-selected and shorn of all context to create a very specific narrative? Because that's what she /does./

She posted to two of the top twitter feeds of the day. Tens of thousands of people were tweeting. You know what most of the gamers were talking about? Gaming-related things. DRM. How much the XBone sucks. Various dudebros being amped about the upcoming sports titles. People were happy and excited and very much focused on gaming.

Yes, posting a feminist plaint was inflammatory - not the content of it but in how it was /bound/ to draw a response - and yes I believe she knew precisely what kind of a response she'd get, because I respect her intellect.

You know what she didn't post on Feminist Frequency that you didn't read? The thousands of tweets supporting her. The tons of people who called those twitter folks out for their idiocy. All of the feminists and non-feminists alike that said, 'you know what, she had a point, and even if she didn't this is out of line.'

Instead she chose the most disgusting and bilious posts and gathered them all carefully together and then immediately sent out a tweet to her supporters saying "look what these gamers said about me."

What you don't know and will never know is what percent of the responses to her tweet were of the type she presents, and what percentage of the responses were more measured, defended her, called out her attackers, or were simply dismissive.

Just as we don't know what percentage of games use the DiD trope.

Context actually /does/ matter to me, perhaps it doesn't to you. Perhaps the mere fact that /any/ hateful things were said to her is sufficient to generate outrage.

I sincerely hope the fact that there are vile, hateful people in the world doesn't come as a surprise to you. It didn't to me.

 

[Vrex360]

1. Welcome to the fucking internet.

Thanks

2. First rule of the internet. Don't feed the fucking trolls.

She expressed an opinion on twitter, how is that feeding the trolls? My entire point was that nothing she said honestly struck me as incendiary or any more than anything anyone else has said about the Xbone.

3. Everyone will say anything online because they can without punishment.

I'm free right now to spout racist and misogynistic and homophobic stuff online but I still don't. 'Everyone' will say 'anything' is bullshit. Online or not there's still such a thing as basic decency and I will call people out when they fail to do that.
The internet gives people the power to say what they want free of consequences, but that's still not an excuse.

4. Taking anything, anyone on the internet for 100% truth is stupid

Again if someone can say stuff like that in such hateful ways I don't care if it's the internet or real world or anywhere else, they are still a fucking piece of shit.

I've already said I'm not going to talk about her views or her video and have no interest in debating those points because I don't want to waste hours of my life in online debates. I only wanted to point out that shitty things said of twitter typically come from shitty people and Ms. Sarkeesian can not be held accountable for that.

That said:

Seriously watch some of her youtubes videos some time. She turned a loving romantic song into something that's supposedly "sexist".

I've watched all of them. At the risk of sounding like a hipster 'I knew about Sarkeesian before it was cool' and while I don't agree with everything she said for the most part I found hr points agreeable and never once felt confronted by them. I certainly disagree with some of her more extreme points but then I usually disagree with every internet personality at least once.

But all the jokes about her being in the kitchen, kitchen video games, etc. Is pointed at her just to get her angry which she is buying into it all the time. She acts like these people are REALLY SEXIST when they are just insulting her out of angry. (Which we ALL do.)

If I said a sexist joke. Does that make me sexist? Nope.

In Anita's eyes it is.

Why?

She has no understanding of my favorite context!

Oh yeah angrily shouting that she deserves to get raped or, again, 'this ***** makes my dick soft'.
Truly a laugh riot.

EDIT:

I'm just waiting for her to say Game of Thrones is sexist. I am surprise she hasn't yet to be honest. But when she does. I am going after her blood. Because if she says ANY federal setting is sexist. I am just going to out right kill her for her stupidity.

Look I love Game of Thrones and I love the female characters in it, Arya is a badass little girl who is cute and awesome at the same time. Daeneryis has the boldness of a warrior, the mind of a queen and the gentle heart of a saint and Breanne of Tarth is awesome and kickass and its genuienly cool to see a non conventionally attractive female lead in a story.

I also admit the sexism in the story for the most part is a theme in the story and universe and is something commented on a lot and characters like Arya and Dany in particular are constantly fighting against it and becoming feminist icons in their own right.

HOWEVER I do sometimes feel that the level of nudity and objectification goes on a bit too much. FOr a while the nudity was limited just to sex scenes and in the brothel scenes but now female nudity is just about everywhere.
When I'm introduced to a new female lead my first thoughts should be, 'who is this? what's her story? what's her motivation? Is she a goodie or a baddie?'
It should NOT be 'well, how long till this one takes her clothes off?'

 

[Vrex360]

Wow, what spectacular arseholes.
Seriously those responses are some of the most meanspirited and entitled misogynistic crap I have read in a long time and no there is no justifying that.

I agree completely those posts are /vile/ and in a perfect world no one would ever be subjected to them. I hope no one reading my own post thinks I was in any way supporting that level of vitriol. I went on to try and posit some of the reasons I believe people generally act like jerks on the internet. Reasons aren't excuses.

Okay fair enough, don't worry. Like I said in my post I tried to avoid direct confrontation with any posters.

However about Anita . . . .

Not wishing to talk about all you said I would just like to say that while one can make an argument that she stripped the context and that these guys represent a vocal but still miniority portion of the gaming fanbase (I feel she could mention this wasn't a majority thing) to me it only really highlights that these guys are like Joffery Baratheon in that they aren't vicious they are also stupid and incredibly bad at forward thinking.
(Sorry if you don't watch/read Game of Thrones and don't get that reference though I suspect you probably get what I mean)

I mean it shows a bit of self awareness right? Like how doing this obviously just makes her point seem stronger and she can obviously use that against them and it'll obviously lead people to hating them. I mean just like with the original harrassment thing she had on her youtube description before comments even started that there was going to be immature hate and anger and it's a sad state of affairs that not only is it incredibly easy to predict gamer backlash to sexism discussion but that even when someone more or less openly admits that by having a sexism backlash they are helping give their argument ammunition they still do it anyway.
Sorry if this isn't as clear as it should be, I'm kind of tired at the moment and not thinking too clearly.

I guess my point is you can technically argue that Ms. Sarkeesian can be guilty of using the shittiness of shitty people from time to time but she herself cannot be blamed for the people being shitty, that they do themselves.

I sincerely hope the fact that there are vile, hateful people in the world doesn't come as a surprise to you. It didn't to me.

The existance of awful people isn't really shock but it does always sadden me how low they really will sink.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Debates are rarely for the purpose of changing the opposition's mind, but for the betterment of those watching/reading. Apart from that, you seem to imply that criticisms of Anita fail to address any of her actual points and instead focus on her delivery, which...isn't true. I really don't know what the reasoning is. Criticising her is as relevant and pointy as any argument over an issue.