This is Why Criticizing Anita Sarkheesian is Irrelevant and Pointless

[Vrex360]

IMAGINATION.
You seriously need everything spelled out for you to understand that people love each other?
Do you need a complex story to understand that two people love each other?
No. You fucking don't.

Dude, calm down.

I understand that the point of the story is that two people love each other, I'm not saying you need a '6 hour backstory' or anything like that. What I'm saying is that if you want to make a love story work you need to actually show a relationship in some detail, it doesn't have to be long. The Darkness (an example Sarkeesian used that I didn't fully agree with) is an example of this. Jackie has one evening with his girlfriend Jenny but there is a lot of time characterization still built into it and she still feels like a real person and even after she dies her presence is felt throughout the story while she still technically fits the trope she still feels like an actual human being and I can be invested in what happens to her.

I don't necessarily want 'big', I want 'well done' a sense of who these characters are and the idea that plotwise the female character is more than just the macguffin killed or stolen in the beginning. I think Anita even said as much in her video that we could at least see the female lead attempt to escape and have agency of her own, the problem with this whole 'loving relationship' thing is that we almost exclusively see if from the perspective of the man and if the woman is barely given any characterization beyond just being the person who needs rescuing or avenging then that's how she becomes less of a character and more of an object.
Anita isn't demonizing loving relationships or devotion or the idea of trying to save or protect a loved one or whatever nonsense thunderf00t likes to drivel, her problem is that such storylines often result in very limited roles for the female character with her principle role to just be kidnapped or killed to advance the story.

The man's love of a woman, determination to protect her and avenge her when she dies is not Sarkeesian's issue, her issue is when, in the form of story telling, that becomes the only role the female lead has and never has a role or agency beyond that. It makes her not really a character or even an active part in the story as much as she is just an extension of the main character. This in turn doesn't create a particularly relatable character for female audiences and certainly not a role model to aspire to. Women want to actually be participants in a story, not the motivational device for someone else's story.
We shouldn't have to imagine things like characterization when we are talking about a main character's characterization. Especially when male characters as the primary focus leave very little to the imagination on a character scale, the only thing female game characters have that leaves little to the imagination for the most part is their outfits.

This is almost like saying the opening stage of Skyrim is bad because they didn't detail why you got arrested. Therefor the game is... "ism" against criminals. Now the reason why I put a ISM in their is the symbol of that word.

Not really. That opening is intentionally done to let the player project themselves in the story, it is not the same as a character never being given a role beyond just a love interest.

Big snip

While it's true there may be a marketing thing going on, I still don't think it's an excuse not to at least try to give female leads more character in dramas like this.

 

[generals3]

I think people are misunderstanding something. She did not feed the trolls. She is the troll. And a good one. Raging and insulting is not trolling. At least it wasn't.
The aim of trolling is to get an inadequate response. And she achieves it with just one message on twitter. Fascinating.
Using all the hate of stupid people to prove her point even more. Smart move.
I don't understand what there is to rage about. For a smart person. She has a point(doesn't mean she is always right), she stirs up the bowels of the internet, and maybe, as a result, we will see less cringe-worthy plots in games. Until I see some negative effects from her activity, I support her idea.
And it's fun to observe internet drama. Especially if she knowingly puts herself in front of the hate train and manages to gain momentum from it.

And it's not like she went for this low-hanging fruit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P75YQHFnyKY
Not particularly offensive, but fake, tasteless and retarded, considering all of the feminist backlashes of the last 6 months.

But there is a good reason to be against her. Her goal may not be bad but her methods are dangerous for gaming. Do you know who also links RL social issues with games like she does? Jack Thompson did, Hilary Clinton did and so many others who blame video games for RL violence. If we support Anita we de facto support all those other people who attacked video games based on the idea it has a crappy effect on RL attitudes. This is why by supporting Anita you're supporting anti-gaming attitudes. Hence why gamers who support her are traitors. They're betraying their community and hobby, why? Because of some White Knight attitude or egoism.

 

[Tr3yk1ng]

I think people are misunderstanding something. She did not feed the trolls. She is the troll. And a good one. Raging and insulting is not trolling. At least it wasn't.
The aim of trolling is to get an inadequate response. And she achieves it with just one message on twitter. Fascinating.
Using all the hate of stupid people to prove her point even more. Smart move.
I don't understand what there is to rage about. For a smart person. She has a point(doesn't mean she is always right), she stirs up the bowels of the internet, and maybe, as a result, we will see less cringe-worthy plots in games. Until I see some negative effects from her activity, I support her idea.
And it's fun to observe internet drama. Especially if she knowingly puts herself in front of the hate train and manages to gain momentum from it.

And it's not like she went for this low-hanging fruit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P75YQHFnyKY
Not particularly offensive, but fake, tasteless and retarded, considering all of the feminist backlashes of the last 6 months.

Doesnt mirrors edge have a female protaganist.Beyond two souls also has a female protaganist i think.So anita is an idiot.

Mirror's Edge 2 was at EA's conference. Beyond Two Souls was at Sony's. She talks about Microsoft's conference.

So the problem is that microsoft didnt show the games?Besides im pretty sure its confirmed that mirrors edge is xbox exclusive.

 

[Legion]

Stuff like "maybe when woman start being capable like men" doesn't strike me as using misogyny as personal attack to be insulting, its just seems misogyny in general.

I guess that's a matter of perspective. Personally I'd say that if you wanted to piss off a feminist then saying women are weaker than men would be the "perfect" way to do it. It's pretty much trolling 101 to say what you think will get the strongest reaction out of somebody. Seeing as how feminism is about gender equality, suggesting that one gender is inferior is pretty much guaranteed to offend.

 

[Vrex360]

Right, I'm just letting everyone know that I'm going to duck out of this one while I still can, it's clearly going to go on for a while and I have study I should do instead. So yeah, out of the debate now.

 

[Filiecs]

She's using the English language, and in the English language it is the responsibility of the speaker to get their point across with strong rhetoric. As such, if Anita claims that she wants to make a change in the gaming industry then she needs to format her argument persuasively rather than confrontationally. Currently, the only effect her videos really have is encouraging those on her side to become zealots and inducing anger in those who are against her/still unconvinced.

Anita isn't trying to be persuasive or have a discussion, instead she is trying to idealistically tell people what they should believe and what they should do. She is literally the Rush Limbaugh of extreme feminism and talks big without making any effort to explain why someone who doesn't agree with her should believe her.

This ranting would be fine if she never claimed that she was trying to change peoples minds and/or be informative, however, that's not the case.

Frankly, if you're trying to change someones mind but don't bother putting in the effort of making your argument effective and persuasive, then I don't think that you think what you have to say is really worth listening too.

 

[GladiatorUA]

But there is a good reason to be against her. Her goal may not be bad but her methods are dangerous for gaming. Do you know who also links RL social issues with games like she does? Jack Thompson did, Hilary Clinton did and so many others who blame video games for RL violence. If we support Anita we de facto support all those other people who attacked video games based on the idea it has a crappy effect on RL attitudes. This is why by supporting Anita you're supporting anti-gaming attitudes. Hence why gamers who support her are traitors. They're betraying their community and hobby, why? Because of some White Knight attitude or egoism.

LOL
You are funny.
"Traitors"....
Hilarious.
Maybe kind of scary, but mostly stupid.
Please quote her saying that sexism in video games causes sexism in RL. And in the future, please avoid "Do you know who also bla-bla". It means nothing.
I like good female characters in video games. Heck, I like any good writing in video games. If her activism reduces the usage of some of overused lazy tropes, I'm all for it.

So the problem is that microsoft didnt show the games?

No, the problem is that her her message is pretty specific.

Thanks #XboxOne #E3 press conference for revealing to us exactly zero games featuring a female protagonist for the next generation.

Besides im pretty sure its confirmed that mirrors edge is xbox exclusive.

Confirmed by whom?

 

[The-Traveling-Bard]

IMAGINATION.

This is almost like saying the opening stage of Skyrim is bad because they didn't detail why you got arrested. Therefor the game is... "ism" against criminals. Now the reason why I put a ISM in their is the symbol of that word.

Not really. That opening is intentionally done to let the player project themselves in the story, it is not the same as a character never being given a role beyond just a love interest.

Big snip

While it's true there may be a marketing thing going on, I still don't think it's an excuse not to at least try to give female leads more character in dramas like this.

:b I am calm. You haven't notice I swear sometimes?

You're giving Anita too much credit. Remember she doesn't have any understanding of the word context.

But that's how Anita would most likely see Skyrim if it was like that. That's how far gone she really is.



Again you're acting as if games are some form of reading. It's not.
Even I do agree that games could have more drawn-out-stories.
But I also understand that games are generally not *about the damn fucking story, but the GAMEPLAY*
Do you honestly care if they changed Solid Snake name into Jack for the rest o- Hold on. Going to use a better example.

Do you honestly think people are going to care if they gave a name to the Barbarian in the Diablo franchise?
No, they wouldn't. People don't play Diablo for the story they play the game for the fucking game. (Generally. There are few examples like the Witcher Series, the MSG series, and other series.) but the majority of the series that have been going have been going along for the *longest amount of time* and had enough time to build up a back story and set pieces) Or hell. Even based off of books that other people have written and therefor still have a pre-set-background.

Do you really honestly feel that is is right to force developers make a complex story just for some average hack and slash game? Really? Does anyone ever play the story for these type of games? Well yes of course but I will would say they're the minority.

All because some femini-nazis have a problem with it because it doesn't meet THEIR standards of story telling?
That's basically that's all it really comes down to with Anita. That it's not meeting HER standards and it has to live up to HER expectations and if you don't have 3 hour back story it's just sexist.

If you want a damn romantic story. Go read a book. The average gamer doesn't want to spent 3-4 hours watching people make puppy dog eyes at each other just so some females feel like their worth more in real life. (Which if you feel less off yourself because of game. Which Anita CLEARLY does... please. Jump in some lava or at least move to a third world country then come back and *****.)

And let's talk about objectified because I hate it when feminist throw this word around all the time like it's their problem only.

We are ALL get equally objectified, idealized, and sexualized. BOTH genders. Just because we're not (males by the way.) half naked on covers of mags (That MOSTLY FUCKING GIRLS READ ANYWAYS.) That doesn't mean we're not being objectified.
Seriously I think she actual brought up a fact how some certain Magazine printers make fun of pregnant celebrities and how this is the mans fault for this type of society.


Er.... Isn't those type of magazine geared towards females? and isn't their reader based generally of mostly girls?

Oh, how about all those romance novels that have the perfect guy modeled out? Mmm?
Do you see any guys ***** about that shit? No. We don't care.

Speaking of romance novels.

Let's talk about 50 shades of grey and the fucking Twilight Series.
Mmm. Both have controlling boyfriends.
Mmm. Both have emotional controlling boyfriends.
Mmm. Both have stalker boyfriends that constantly watches over them.
Mmm. Twilight was anti-abortion.
Mmm. Twilight was all about virginity, and finding a man is the most important thing you can do in life.

OH, LOOK ALL THESE BOOKS ARE SEXIST! But yet I don't hear SHIT from any female about those damn books. In fact I love how majority of females who LOVE 50 shades of grey will shout from the fucking roof tops that "Chivalry is dead!" while on the other hand PRIASE books like 50 shades of grey that have nothing but a controlling emotional abusive boyfriends.

Cash in hand, dick on screen. ((Marilyn Manson reference.)

This idea that nudity some how is a shameful thing and you should never, ever show your body is a very, very backwards way of thinking. The fact is the girls. (Yes ALL OF YOU FUCKING FEMALES) allow yourselves to be objectified. You always have the power to say "NO" and turn down the photoshoot. But you don't. And honestly.. what's wrong with that? Do you care if Rihanna is showing off her body in almost every video? No. You really don't. If you do. Why are you caring about what someone else does WITH THEIR BODY?!

Before you make a claim on shit like this. You really need to ask yourself.
"How is this going to personally effect me?"
"How is going to alter my life?"
Because everything Anita brings up about the blatant "sexism" in video games has probably zero impact on her personal life. I also mean the game themselves... not the community.

At the end of the day. We ALL want someone beautiful and we ALL want someone handsome. Weither you wanna play the morally righteous card and the pseudo-good-guy-badge. (THAT DON'T MEAN A FUCK TO ME!((Marilyn Manson reference)) and act like you truly don't care if your husband is fat pig that weighs 600 pounds over a guy who handsome and good looking.

 

[Tr3yk1ng]

But there is a good reason to be against her. Her goal may not be bad but her methods are dangerous for gaming. Do you know who also links RL social issues with games like she does? Jack Thompson did, Hilary Clinton did and so many others who blame video games for RL violence. If we support Anita we de facto support all those other people who attacked video games based on the idea it has a crappy effect on RL attitudes. This is why by supporting Anita you're supporting anti-gaming attitudes. Hence why gamers who support her are traitors. They're betraying their community and hobby, why? Because of some White Knight attitude or egoism.

LOL
You are funny.
"Traitors"....
Hilarious.
Maybe kind of scary, but mostly stupid.
Please quote her saying that sexism in video games causes sexism in RL. And in the future, please avoid "Do you know who also bla-bla". It means nothing.
I like good female characters in video games. Heck, I like any good writing in video games. If her activism reduces the usage of couple of overused tropes, I'm all for it.

So the problem is that microsoft didnt show the games?

No, the problem is that her her message is pretty specific.

Thanks #XboxOne #E3 press conference for revealing to us exactly zero games featuring a female protagonist for the next generation.

Besides im pretty sure its confirmed that mirrors edge is xbox exclusive.

Confirmed by whom?

Nevermind mirrors edge 2 isnt exclusive just remember reading it somewhere.But she has said videogames are contributing to things like sexism in real life which is like saying they contribute to shooting up schools.

 

[GladiatorUA]

But she has said videogames are contributing to things like sexism in real life which is like saying they contribute to shooting up schools.

Again, quote.
I think I remember her saying, that games may "reinforce the stereotype". And this correct. Stereotypes feeds the media and media feed the stereotypes. But I haven't heard her say anything close to "games cause sexism".

 

[Tr3yk1ng]

But she has said videogames are contributing to things like sexism in real life which is like saying they contribute to shooting up schools.

Again, quote.
I think I remember her saying, that games may "reinforce the stereotype". And this correct. Stereotypes feeds the media and media feed the stereotypes. But I haven't heard her say anything close to "games cause sexism".

Not much difference between reinforcing and contributing but whatever I dont care enough to talk bout her anymore.

 

[Uhura]

Like when she trolled 4chan and left her comment section open just long enough for the trolls to show up and paint her as a martyr.

Do you have any proof that this happened or are you just like every other person who brings this rumor up without any evidence?

EDIT - Also... Mirror's Edge 2. Female. She may be Asian but she is still Female. Stop being Racist Anita. Or you know wait til the very end before you send out snarky comments.

snip

And in response to Anita's idiotic tweet totally disregarding Mirror's Edge 2

You do understand that Mirror's Edge 2 was part of the EA press conference and not part of the Microsoft conference? Maybe check the facts next time before snarking?

 

[AlbertoDeSanta]

Wait, I'm confused. In the link she says "Thanks #XboxOne #E3 press conference for revealing to us exactly zero games featuring a female protagonist for the next generation"

But an article on the front page of the Escapist says "Mirror's Edge 2 was announced at the EA E3 2013 press conference moments ago"

So am I missing something here?

Not sure if someone else has said it, but she was referring to the Microsoft conference; EA's came a bit afterwards.

 

[Uhura]

Holy shit, looks like some of the more vocal Anita critics here have graduated from the Glenn Beck school of debating. "She's just as bad as school shooters"! "Gamers who support her are traitors"!

This is some funny stuff. Keep it up guys!

 

[generals3]

But there is a good reason to be against her. Her goal may not be bad but her methods are dangerous for gaming. Do you know who also links RL social issues with games like she does? Jack Thompson did, Hilary Clinton did and so many others who blame video games for RL violence. If we support Anita we de facto support all those other people who attacked video games based on the idea it has a crappy effect on RL attitudes. This is why by supporting Anita you're supporting anti-gaming attitudes. Hence why gamers who support her are traitors. They're betraying their community and hobby, why? Because of some White Knight attitude or egoism.

LOL
You are funny.
"Traitors"....
Hilarious.
Maybe kind of scary, but mostly stupid.
Please quote her saying that sexism in video games causes sexism in RL.

I forgot to add "and those who didn't see her videos" to the potential supporters. I have quoted her in many threads to prove that assertion and there are so many passages in her videos proving it i still wonder how people can ask that question. But being in a very arrogant mood instead of going through the effort of copy pasting text (again...) from her website i'll just say this "watch the videos".

And yes, traitors. There is no better word to describe a gamer who thinks unproven propaganda is a reason to guilt devs into doing certain things. It's showing 0 respect to video games and their makers. I've tried my fair share of diplomacy but it has been painfully clear: Anita's supporters don't care about facts. They only care about their goal and the method to get there is irrelevant. Lies, demonization, fact fabrication, it's all ok because it's for the "wimenz". It's white knighting pushed to its extreme.

 

[GladiatorUA]

I forgot to add "and those who didn't see her videos" to the potential supporters. I have quoted her in many threads to prove that assertion and there are so many passages in her videos proving it i still wonder how people can ask that question. But being in a very arrogant mood instead of going through the effort of copy pasting text (again...) from her website i'll just say this "watch the videos".

And yes, traitors. There is no better word to describe a gamer who thinks unproven propaganda is a reason to guilt devs into doing certain things. It's showing 0 respect to video games and their makers. I've tried my fair share of diplomacy but it has been painfully clear: Anita's supporters don't care about facts. They only care about their goal and the method to get there is irrelevant. Lies, demonization, fact fabrication, it's all ok because it's for the "wimenz". It's white knighting pushed to its extreme.

I watched the videos as they came out. Both parts of Tropes vs Women in video games. I wouldn't support an idea I know nothing about.

"Unproven propaganda"? What is unproven? That the tropes are overused? That society influences media and media influences society?
What's wrong with guilting developers for lazy writing?
It's not 0 respect. The fact that the aspect of their work is being criticized means that their work matters enough. Is this not a form of respect?
What facts?
What "lies, demonization, fact fabrication"?
And it's not for "wimenz". As I said, I want better writing.

 

[Xanex]

Ahahahahahahaha. She's a joke, "these reactions show the male privilege in the gaming community". It's like she's a cartoon figure. A cartoon damsel in distress at that, she can't help but show how much she's a victim of the ebil internet. Come on white knights rescue the damsel!

Yes because criticizing actual cases of male privilege in gaming is exactly the same as being a damsel in distress. How the fuck do you get "she's acting like a victim" from criticizing sexism in gaming. And you're a joke if you honestly believe that "white knighting" is anything but something that lazy asses made up rather than having an actual debate on sexism.

When she trolled 4chan to deliberately provoke the backlash so she can play victim and get sympathy money she lost any credibility on being a victim. She was even called on it in a CNN interview and she couldn't even respond to the reporter.

 

[Loner Jo Jo]

I honestly find these debates on Sarkeesian appalling, especially on sites like these that are dominated by men. Yes, there have been others on this forum defending Sarkeesian or at least feminism, and I would sincerely like to thank you for that. However, I have a couple issues here.

One, is the biggest complaint against Sarkeesian is that she makes "inflammatory remarks"? Let me break this argument down for you. If that tweet was inflammatory in any way, I would like to know how. Yes, she was sarcastic, but she didn't call for riots or murders or anything violent or ridiculous. All she did was point out how there were no games with female protagonists. It's only inflammatory to those who are privileged, or men. And even then, not all men have a problem with Sarkeesian. Many freely admit that she makes a valid point. It's only those who either take issue with females or the feminist movement that really have a problem with her.

You may say, "No, it's honestly her," but I seriously doubt that. If she was complaining about Xboxone's DRM policy or even something petty like "this game looks like it sucks," no one would give two shits about her. No man would comment say "Shut up," "You make my dick soft" or "Why don't you get a cooking and cleaning game instead?" No one. It's only because she points out the misogyny in gaming that she gets this retaliation. It's not about her and her style of delivery or knowledge on the subject. It's about her being a feminist talking about women's issues in gaming.

Furthermore, I am tired of this victim blaming line of thought. One, I do not think she is trying to play the victim. If she is doing anything manipulative, it is the possibility that she is baiting narrow minded and petty men. She makes a feminist comment, and suddenly she gets all of this harassment based solely on the fact that she has a uterus and is talking about games. Then when she puts all of the derogatory remarks in board daylight for everyone to see, it's her fault she got them in the first place? Excuse me, but it is my opinion that if the issues she addresses didn't actually exist, then there would not be a single comment of this nature from anyone, or certainly not as many as she got. Honestly, it would be one thing if she received well rationed, polite arguments, but she didn't. Even the ones that did not automatically target the fact that she was female usually ended their argument with "dumbass" or "shut up." Of course, this whole argument I just made rests on the notion that a woman's right to freedom of speech doesn't count, at least not when addressing women's issues. Naturally, this is ridiculous. Sarkeesian can make any statement she damn well pleases. Just because you don't like it doesn't make her opinion invalid.

 

[Smeatza]

Below are some of the Twitter replies to that observation which exemplify the male privilege and male entitlement endemic in the gaming community today.

Shut up
Who cares?
Nobody cares
Talk about making an issue out of nothing
Why exactly do video games need to have female protagonists?

Since when did apathy or ignorance decisively show privilege or entitlement? Or are we just taking advantage of people less educated/intelligent/compassionate(lol) than ourselves?

Relax, it'll all be over soon.
Women don't belong in video games
Maybe if women were more intelligent and capable at life they would lead more video games, like super floral arranger
were you expecting a cooking and cleaning game?
Yep, no boobs

I suppose it's only fair she feeds the trolls considering that's how she got famous.

We all know that had a game had a female protaganist, you would have bitched about it being "a man with boobs" or some bullshit
Are you working on a game? Or do you just expect other people to do what you want if you pout enough?
Big Deal. Video game companies are not social movement groups
Having a female protagonist just for the sake of having one is just as bad as not having one at all

Admittedly there is some aggression in there, but that's what you get when your style/videos is/are deliberately inflammatory.
The fact she groups these comments in with the trolls and the annoyed says volumes about how dismissive she is.

 

[CHUD]

We need to stop giving her attention, she seems to thrive on it.

Hope so, she's certainly getting MY money - this latest storm of Anita-bashing just proves further there is a genuine need for what she's doing.