This Thread is About Asperger's Syndrome

[Dramus]

I think the thing to remember is the intent. When Yahtzee was writing the joke, I doubt he was thinking "those Asperger's dicks really piss me off, I think I'll mock them", he was just trying to come up with a clever way to say the game was easily distracted (which since a game can't be 'distracted' means that he was trying to say something else, but though I remember the quote I can't remember the review, so I can't say for sure) It's important to be able to laugh at yourself, so as long as there was no real malice, I say it's no big deal.

 

[Booze Zombie]

I can laugh at myself, it's just that being easily distracted isn't a trait of mine... so I can't laugh at myself with that particular joke because that isn't me.

 

[Saskwach]

Quick hypothetical here. What if in said "free country", you pissed off a large group of people by being an asshole and they all choose to rip you to shreds and the police ignore it because you insulted them?

Freedom of speech is all well and good, but being intelligent doesn't hurt, you know?

In that hypothetical case I'd charge those murderers and the policemen for their respective crimes, because it doesn't hurt to not kill people, either. Hell, I'd enjoy every minute of their prison time because anyone who thinks they can kill someone simply for what they believe should rot in jail.
I hate to Godwin it up but being "intelligent" in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia meant not pissing off certain people who WOULD tear you to shreds for saying something that insulted their own views. When you have to choose your words in public because you're at risk of being ripped to shreds without the police interfering on your behalf then you're not living in a free country. When we add "...and I'm going to stop you saying it" to "I think what you said was really insulting/stupid..." then we're making the same fundamental mistake as the Soviets, and when the government adds "...but I won't stop people who want to kill you for saying it" to "You have the right to say anything..." then the government is failing to enforce freedom of speech.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Freedom of Speech comes with Responsibility of Speech. Otherwise we wouldn't have Slander/Libel Laws.

 

[Saskwach]

Freedom of Speech comes with Responsibility of Speech. Otherwise we wouldn't have Slander/Libel Laws.

And that's why I said in my first post that there are certain limits to free speech. But slander/libel wasn't brought into the hypothetical and it would be besides the point anyway: a guy was killed for what he said and the police did nothing. It's not a responsibility to stay alive by not pissing off a lynch mob.
If you weren't responding to my post, sorry to rope you in.

 

[BlueMage]

I object to being insulted.

Most people do. I certainly do. But you know what? You man up and learn to take it, either gracefully or by returning it with just as much venom.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Slander and Libel show that the Government understands that there are certain Freedoms of Speech that attack other Freedoms (like Equality); so... Whilst Freedom of Speech is important, you should make an effort to also not impact on Society, as it's Society that is giving you that Freedom of Speech.

People with mental disorders have often been targetted by prejudice because quite a few of the disorders produce non-societal reactions; therefore there should be an understanding that whilst these people WANT to remain within society, sometimes they cannot abide by all the rules. That doesn't give Society the right to mock them.

One of the things I've found talking to children with Downes Syndrome is that NONE of them display the traits of maliciousness that are commonplace in 'normal' children. And similarly with Aspergers, Autistics. They desperately want to fit in (Especially as Downes Syndrome usually terminates your life at around 30) but are faced with far more glass ceilings, hatred and sheer misunderstanding than most 'minorities' because often they make up part of that minority as well.

Given the fact that a lot of disturbed behaviour is unsettling, and that a lot of the sufferers are unable to commuicate their needs; it seems a little heartless to target them just because they're not articulate enough.

Despite what Blue Mage said, some sufferers can't return the insults. They just have to live with them.

 

[Saskwach]

Slander and Libel show that the Government understands that there are certain Freedoms of Speech that attack other Freedoms (like Equality); so... Whilst Freedom of Speech is important, you should make an effort to also not impact on Society, as it's Society that is giving you that Freedom of Speech.

People with mental disorders have often been targetted by prejudice because quite a few of the disorders produce non-societal reactions; therefore there should be an understanding that whilst these people WANT to remain within society, sometimes they cannot abide by all the rules. That doesn't give Society the right to mock them.

One of the things I've found talking to children with Downes Syndrome is that NONE of them display the traits of maliciousness that are commonplace in 'normal' children. And similarly with Aspergers, Autistics. They desperately want to fit in (Especially as Downes Syndrome usually terminates your life at around 30) but are faced with far more glass ceilings, hatred and sheer misunderstanding than most 'minorities' because often they make up part of that minority as well.

Given the fact that a lot of disturbed behaviour is unsettling, and that a lot of the sufferers are unable to commuicate their needs; it seems a little heartless to target them just because they're not articulate enough.

Despite what Blue Mage said, some sufferers can't return the insults. They just have to live with them.

We went from Yahtzee making an off-the-cuff remark that wasn't all that sensitive to talking about slander. The goal posts, they're moving.

 

[Mistah Kurtz]

Quit your whining. Everyone gets offended, and the handicapped are no exception, nor should they be. It seems like you want people on the autistic spectrum to be looked at as equals and at the same time don't think they should be the subject of ridicule, which is, for lack of a better word, retarded.

Actually know someone who is mentally disabled, then you are allowed to speak to me.
If anyone is advocating the right to use mental disabilities as an insult, think of this:
You are having your first child. You and your significant are together, admiring your the baby.
You feel sheer bliss.
Then the doctor comes in with a solem look and tells you that your child has a mental illness. They will never be able to live on their own, they will not be able to have a job, they will not be able to function as a normal person.

How would that make you feel?

OK, so Asperger's isn't very bad, but still. Insulting someone with a mental disorder at any level is wrong. I have never known anyone who brought such a thing upon themselves. They, nor do the people who sork with them/ are related to them/ hope for their wellbeing, diserve some careless person's negative connotations. It is as cruel to the people who help them live normal lives (Or as close to normal as possible), sometimes moreso than to the person with the mental disability.

I'm interested in a logical debate, not an appeal to pity. If you're only argument is that it makes people feel bad then you are wrong. And for the record, although I don't have any close people in my life with who've been diagnosed with Autism, my Grandfather had a stroke and through most of my life and the end of his I assisted him with the arduous task of learning how to do everything all over again - speak, read, walk, etc.

Towards the end of his life I ended up having to help him all the time by feeding him, helping give him his medicine, wiping him after he'd gone to the bathroom, etc, so yes, i know what it's like to have someone with a severe disability close to you.

Why do I bring this up? I'm sure most remember the Family Guy episode where Peter gets a stroke. Personally, I didn't find the episode very funny, mostly because of my gramps (and because family guy isn't very funny anymore), but I was NEVER so selfish as to say that because I find something someone says offensive they shouldn't be allowed to say it. Freedom of speech is NOT compatible with political correctness, and anyone who would sacrifice the former for the latter would spit on the very idea of freedom.

 

[Booze Zombie]

Is it not that very own freedom which allows us to voice our opinions? If everyone gets offended like you said before, Kurtz, then everyone also can use their freedom of speech to complain, correct?

Freedom of speech doesn't work on a double standard.

 

[Dramus]

I can laugh at myself, it's just that being easily distracted isn't a trait of mine... so I can't laugh at myself with that particular joke because that isn't me.

Perhaps I phrased my statement incorrectly, so let me give another example. I have tourettes, but it's a very minor form of it. All that really happens is that when I zone out or get excited I start twitching my hands. Some people have said it's like I'm playing an invisible gameboy. Now, when someone makes a 'I have tourettes, purple unicorn bollocks' or some other joke about how they say random things, I'm fine. I don't have those symptoms, but I know some people do. This again boils down to what I said earlier. Yahtzee's point was not to mock Asperger's sufferers. It wasn't even about the disease. He could have made the exact same point by saying it's like the game had the mind of a 6 year old (6 year olds being easily distracted). I have no idea if short attention span is a symptom of Asperger's or Autism (chances are it is just because it's so widely diagnosed everything could be a symptom depending on the case) but that's not the point. I don't see any reason to take offense if the comment was not meant to be offensive in the slightest, and doesn't really even apply to you (since you've said that you don't have a short attention span).

 

[Mistah Kurtz]

Is it not that very own freedom which allows us to voice our opinions? If everyone gets offended like you said before, Kurtz, then everyone also can use their freedom of speech to complain, correct?

Freedom of speech doesn't work on a double standard.

I never said that people shouldn't have the right to contest something that someone says, but contesting their right to say it is indefensible. Someone brought up the idea that freedom of speech implies responsibility of speech, and that is total nonsense. Freedom of speech means any opinion, no matter how vulgar or despicable, cannot be suppressed.

If you are going to complain about jokes, however, I will address those complaints. Yes, there are touchy issues in the world and many people have large emotional investments in those issues. Does that mean that people shouldn't be allowed to mock those issues, or to make light of them? Comedy - black comedy, specifically - is a way that humans deal about these horrible things.

As for the idea of making fun of autistic people, there is a great deal of difference making a joke about autism and antagonizing people who are afflicted with the disease. 99% of the time the situation falls into the former, and the latter is only practiced by extremely moronic adults and school children who are too young to know any better. I would say it's wrong to suggest that it's not okay to joke about these issues, since by doing it you say to society "This is a sensitive issue Don't make fun of these people or their situations. They are different from you and must be treated differently." Ironically, these are the same people that will remark how autistic people are "just like everyone else and shouldn't be treated any differently from anyone else."

ALL comedy is offensive to someone. I didn't hear many people talking about how the Blue Collar Christmas comedy thing was offensive, although many undoubtedly felt that a group of shitty rich comedians making fun of poor people at Christmas time was not in the best taste. Lenny Bruce was arrested many times because the same radical leftist mentality existed then that exists now - the idea that you can impose moral limits to speech based on the accepted values and principles of the current generation. When you do that, you need to revise those limits every time society changes it's attitude towards something. Furthermore, who decides what those limits are? Remember - the simplest solution is usually the best.

 

[Danny Ocean]

" Ironically, these are the same people that will remark how autistic people are "just like everyone else and shouldn't be treated any differently from anyone else."

If someone is saying that, then they are probably autistic. Not debilitatingly. Noticably, but they can still live a normal life. Although, I'm sure 'Autistic' doesn't look too good on a C.V.
If they're not autistic, then the chances are that they are looking after someone autistic. In which case they would never say that, it's their responsibility. I would never say to treat my brothers like everyone else, because if you did that, they would have a miserable and short lived existance.

As for the idea of making fun of autistic people, there is a great deal of difference making a joke about autism and antagonizing people who are afflicted with the disease.

It may seem like a joke , but that's how it always starts, isn't it?

99% of the time the situation falls into the former, and the latter is only practiced by extremely moronic adults and school children who are too young to know any better.

Did you know 80% of statistics are made up on the spot? In my short time on this earth, I've hardly ever heard a 'joke' about mentally disabled people. Simply no-one jests about it in the true sense of the word. Considering that that short time was spent around said schoolchildren, its all the more astounding.

The fact is, as sad as it may be, more often than not this particular group is targeted with the malice that can only come from ignorance and fear,
Only for the targeters to slither through the moral net by citing, "Free Speech".
"It's just a joke."

Have a heart, have a brain, and know when it's just not funny.

 

[Dramus]

Again, it's not what's said that matters; it's what's meant. I'm reminded of a lot of the Jon Stewart/ Larry Wilmore segments on The Daily Show. A lot of what's said there could be construed as racist, and indeed there are some parts that you could repeat verbatim and be shunned as a Klanner for. But they aren't racist because they're meant as a satire on racism. It's up to individuals to judge how good a satire it is, but even if you think it's more tasteless then a PETA add you can't intelligently claim it's racist. This is a problem with modern society in general; people are looking to be offended. Political correctness sucks copious amounts of ass.

 

[Booze Zombie]

It's not about political correctness. Or, at least my original posts aren't.

I wasn't angry about Yahtzee attempting a joke about people with Autism/Asperger's, I was angry he didn't do it correctly. That is, he didn't make fun of stuff we actually do.

 

[Mistah Kurtz]

Again, it's not what's said that matters; it's what's meant. I'm reminded of a lot of the Jon Stewart/ Larry Wilmore segments on The Daily Show. A lot of what's said there could be construed as racist, and indeed there are some parts that you could repeat verbatim and be shunned as a Klanner for. But they aren't racist because they're meant as a satire on racism. It's up to individuals to judge how good a satire it is, but even if you think it's more tasteless then a PETA add you can't intelligently claim it's racist. This is a problem with modern society in general; people are looking to be offended. Political correctness sucks copious amounts of ass.

j
Well said. This includes black comedy - jokes that are funny simply because they are horrifying - dead baby jokes, child molestation jokes, etc. Most, if not all, of black comedy is focused on taboo subjects that make pretty much everybody uncomfortable. When Family guy makes horrible jokes about Joe's handicap, they aren't funny because paralysis is a comedy goldmine - they're funny because the thought of even joking about being in a wheelchair is horrifying enough to force a laugh.

And as for..

It may seem like a joke , but that's how it always starts, isn't it?

Is it? Jokes are how WHAT always starts, exactly? I'm not sure what you mean by that. If you mean that jokes can lead to hurt feelings, then you're absolutely right. If you're talking about emotional progress that a person can make when he's forced to think about a subject a different, more comfortable way (with the comforting cushion of laughter) allowing what was once a joke to become a small factor in the way people see the world and bring them to higher realms of understanding, you're right too.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

I'm going to have to summarise this in one, harsh sentance that will doubtless upset many people:

The world dosen't care baout your feelings, get over it.

Or my personal one: I don't enjoy watching people getting hurt, but the day freedom of speech is trumped by the right to not be offended is they day I burn this planet to the gound and start again with ameobas.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

We went from Yahtzee making an off-the-cuff remark that wasn't all that sensitive to talking about slander. The goal posts, they're moving.

Really? If some company says you have "nice baps", you can get a couple of million for discrimination; but calling sufferers names doesn't even get you an apology?

The world may not care; but then why does it respect the minority of the month and shit on the rest of us.

 

[Booze Zombie]

I'm going to have to summarise this in one, harsh sentence that will doubtless upset many people:

The world doesnt care about your feelings, get over it.

Or my personal one: I don't enjoy watching people getting hurt, but the day freedom of speech is trumped by the right to not be offended is they day I burn this planet to the ground and start again with amoebas.

So what you're saying, is that since the world doesn't care about me I should stop voicing my opinion? If that's what you're saying, you're telling me to stop using my ability to speak freely, thus contradicting yourself?

 

[BlueMage]

No lad, we're saying you can piss and moan all you like, but the world won't give a shit, so all you're doing is pissing in the wind. If you really want to piss and moan, go for it, but sooner or later (and here's hoping sooner) you'll realise there are far more productive ways you can spend your time.