This whole Rape Controversy has gotten silly,

[LetalisK]

Let me help you out. Read this....

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9766-The-R-Word

I'm sorry if you feel that someone else's pain has gotten too "silly" for you, but it's time to grow up. To put away childish things and learn that the world doesn't revolve around you. If you have never been a victim of Rape...be thankful for it. Because if you had, you wouldn't think it was "silly", and you certainly wouldn't have written something so damn stupid.

How would you know? It's pretty obvious you didn't read beyond the title. Or, at least I hope this is the case. I'd be deeply perplexed to learn you think it's "damn stupid" that we should not be afraid to explore in video games the nature and consequences of rape in a mature manner instead of shying away from it because its a sensitive subject. Because that was his point and he sure wasn't calling rape silly.

 

[Cheesepower5]

Hypothetical: Person A rapes Person B, Person B rapes Person A back in revenge later.

Instead, Person A kills Person B's Dad/Mum or whatever, Person B, once again, does the same back.

Is the first unjustifiable while the second totally is? Are neither justifiable? What, if anything, is the difference between these two acts of horrible crime followed by equally horrible vengeance?

In my opinion about the controversy, portrayal of rape should never be taboo. That being said, the guy who commented about protecting Lara Croft made an idiotic statement. That says very little about the game or him as a person. He goofed, get over it.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I think the big issue is that we as a society tend to try brush things we find unpleasant "under the carpet" so to speak, and try to pretend they don't exist. So whenever someone tries to force us to face these things out come the torches and pitchforks. I have to admit, I'm as guilty of this as anyone else. The thing is this is the wrong approach, esp. when it comes to fiction. Sometimes story writers have to force us to face the the things we find unpleasant and/or distasteful in order to get their message across. After all how else can we adequately show that our "evil bad guys" are in fact evil bad guys if we can't show them doing evil things? Have them laugh manically and give gloating, self-congratulatory one-liners like Saturday morning cartoon villains or all the "bad guys" in Star Trek Online?
Granted, of course, it has to be done in such a way as to not glorify the thing in question for shock value. I do not approve of that in any way shape or form.

 

[LetalisK]

To the OP:
It should be a conversation we can have, as mature adults. However, if all of the discussion on the boards and across the Internet about this of late have proven anything...

...but it hasn't. As eloquently as you presented your point, I couldn't disagree with it more. In fact, your entire first paragraph is exactly why we should be having this conversation. Even if I accepted the premise that the "immature" are great in number relative to the "mature", which I don't, I reject the notion that the community is too immature to have this discussion because any evidence of immaturity toward the subject is also evidence that there is not enough awareness. And we do have different values and different perspectives and different levels of maturity. If we don't bring those separate values and perspectives together, how are we supposed to advance?

I'm not willing to let the "immature" silence the rest of us nor am I willing to wait for them to mature on their own because growth doesn't occur in a vacuum. If they're going to mature, it's going to be because of conversations like this, not despite them. And like you said, there is a haziness and an uncomfortable feeling to this subject. That is not going to go away on its own. It will always be like that unless there is a public discourse about it, wherein it will have the opportunity to be refined. Furthermore, we don't need to reach a consensus. People can and will disagree about everything. That doesn't mean we don't progress forward.

To remain silent is to remain stagnant.

 

[Jimesis]

I only really just got home from work, so while I've read all the replies I haven't had the time to write up the responses they all deserve. First:

- Thank you guys (and girls) for joining the discussion.

- Special thanks to Lilani and Mylinkay for all the thought you brought to the table.

- I appreciate everyone who took the time to read the whole post. I realize it was pretty long.

Second:

- It looks like a few people only read the title before replying and came in on the offensive. I'm going to send them messages when I can, apologizing to them in turn, and asking them to come back and read the original post.

- I realize that the above is probably my fault, I could have done better when I titled the thread. I blame fatigue.

***

I would like to reply to LHZA really quick. I didn't mean to suggest rape could be seen as self defense. If the writing came off that way it's a failure on my part. In that instance I was asking, if you can murder a person to punish them for something is there a difference if you punish them with rape instead? In either case they're your victim. There are many MANY games where you can kill enemies who are already defeated and/or could never hope to beat you anyway at that point.

Here's an interesting thought on the subject. Like I've said my gf survived her rape and has been living a really happy life for years now. That said, I have no doubt at all that if she met her attackers and could figure out how to kill them without landing herself in jail for the rest of her life she absolutely would. Hell, I absolutely would and technically these people I've never met have never wronged me.

Now as a poor alternative to their grizzly murders (which I get away with Scott free) we could settle for them being raped in return. Of course I don't think I could get into it myself, but I wouldn't feel the tiniest bit guilty about sending them to prison where they could be raped by burly men covered in racist tattoos. Which still kind of feels like their getting off easy, but one could hope the tattooed fellas visit them often over the years. And that's the essence of the passage you referred to, if you can justify murdering evil people can't you justify raping them? Or are me and my girl alone on this one?

Was that really quick? This doesn't actually look really quick. Anyway I'll do my best to get a few more replies in before the end of my night.

 

[Valis88]

We shouldn't be afraid to portray rape, yes, but I feel we should also avoid misrepresenting it and trivializing it. If rape is going to be portrayed in a "real" way, then the writers should make the effort to do their research on rape victims and how they cope. Don't just assume it's going to be a super intense "growing up" moment that's easily interchangeable with some other tragedy, like a dog getting killed or losing a loved one.

This...so much this.

I hope that we never reach a point in games, or media, where we actually trivialize rape.

 

[Nuke_em_05]

Gotten silly?

It started silly. A producer of "Tomb Raider" said "Laura gets raped". Turns out it's just the scene from the trailer where some guy man-handles her with ill-intent. However, the internet had already exploded.

As for the topic of rape itself; it isn't a cut-and-dry cookie-cutter experience for anyone; and people who assume it is always one specific way are ignorant. Unfortunately, there's a lot of ignorance here on the jolly 'ol intertubes.

 

[skywolfblue]

And this Lara Croft controversy? Evil. Let's be honest. We know what this is about. It is the deliberate courting of controversy to sell boxes.

No matter if you're a man or a woman, a rape victim or not, any sensible person should find this stunt despicable.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

This isn't some well-handled tale that brings to light the problems of rape, it's just controversy for the sake of making a few bucks.

 

[The Elf Herself]

Interesting points for thought and discussion have been brought up here.

Let me start off by saying I'm a rape victim/survivor/whatever-you-want-to-call-it. My situation is something that a lot of people would say ISN'T rape, because I was dating the guy who did it. (Yes, I've heard that. Apparently it's better to have a traumatic occurrence become habitual rather than be a one-time-only thing. Go figure.) I have exhibited symptoms of PTSD, among other things, for a while now. I am currently seeking help for it. That's not what I'm here to talk about, however, and I'm only mentioning it to give a little context.

As much as I will never be able to forgive all the things my ex has done, I would never actively seek to harm him in any way. In no way do his actions justify my taking revenge. This is why we have a justice system that is supposed to be cold and impartial. I was too afraid to make use of that while I could have, and even IF he had gone to prison, I would NEVER have joked about him being raped there and would NEVER have wished for it to happen to him. I wouldn't want to kill him, either, or have anyone else kill him for me. In my highly subjective opinion, in real life, I can't justify revenge rape or revenge killing. He may "deserve" it, according to others, but all I hope for is that he continues to leave me alone and doesn't harm anyone else.

As far as video games go, I'm not even offended by the Tomb Raider trailer (other than the blatant "trying-to-cause-controversy-to-boost-sales" feeling I got from it). Hell, my favorite game has a bit about rape. You don't see anything, but it's heavily implied that a minor side character was raped. This character doesn't want to discuss it, so you don't. She says she doesn't want to be seen as helpless and delicate. That's it.

I think that would be the best place to start if we're trying to discuss rape in a mature way in games. Make it something that happens to anyone but the protagonist so we can gauge THEIR reactions. Then, after people are pretty sure how to handle this in a mature way, we can talk about how to make rape happen to a protagonist. I know there are games with that sort of thing in it, but I still think we're putting the cart before the horse just a bit as far as games are concerned. What's the rush? This will still be an issue for a while, I'm sure.

Sorry for the novel. I hope I made some kind of sense...

 

[DanDeFool]

I think the bottom line here is that you can't treat this sort of topic with a broad brush. We all have difficult, painful, and traumatic things happen in our lives, and some of us cope better than others. I really respect OP's girl for getting past her rape, but I can't fault anonymous for not being able to do the same.

Some people commit murder-suicides when their spouse cheats on them. Some frontline soldiers make careers out of military service. How people respond to hard times varies widely, and difficulties that crush one person may help another grow stronger.

Ultimately, what I think we all agree on is that rape in narrative has to be handled carefully, taken seriously, and not used to evoke some cheap effect. Even the whole "flighty heroine ALMOST gets raped, but is saved at the last second by the hero" is a bit disrespectful of the subject matter, and the thing they're doing with the Tomb Raider storyline is, at best, missing the point.

If you want an example of rape in narrative handled well, check out the anime Now and Then, Here and There. Or don't, because that series is depressing. In any case let's hope the Tomb Raider devs get their act together and fix this crap before it's too late.

 

[rbstewart7263]

I think the scene with those battle nuns was horrible...I too have beaten sexy battle nuns yea knowing that what I was doing would keep sexy women dressed as nuns in there place. oh god....

 

[MyNameIsNowNotMyName]

I actually did read that article before, and I'm aware that Rape can and has affected people that way, but from personal experience of knowing more than one person for years who has been raped I know that not everyone has that reaction to the trauma. One of my issues, and my gf's, is that most people seem to think that either everyone who was raped goes through their lives like the author of that article or that rape isn't serious at all.

There are many shades of gray in this rainbow, same as with most issues. There are people who are crushed by the trauma of their experience and people who move on without much issue. If it seemed like I was belittling the former group I apologize, but I think it's important to note that the story told by the author of "the R word" isn't a universal one.

I understand it's not a universal story, and that's why I feel like we need to be very careful about how it's employed in narrative. If you go the route of it not being a big deal, then you belittle those who had extremely violent and traumatic experiences. But if you make it too traumatic, then it has the possibility of being too hammy and totally undermining every other aspect of the victim.

I think the main issue with rape being in games that doesn't so much affect it being in films and literature is because in films and literature it is always an isolated character. You are constantly aware that the person going though that is not you, and has their own thoughts and feelings on the situation. With games, you are often supposed to be living vicariously through the character. Feeling what they feel, going through their toils with them. Rape is such a personal thing that everybody reacts differently to that any attempt to accurately put the player in the character's exact emotional state will always fall flat for a lot of people. But, if it is made perfectly clear that the character you are dealing with is a unique individual with their own emotions separate from the player, then I think that could be solved. And that is why I think there is still a possibility of the attempted rape in the new Tomb Raider game could work. Just as long as they don't make it too hammy and keep it focused on what Lara is feeling instead of the player. Don't make it about "this is how rape is," make it about "this is how rape is to Lara."

See, that's the thing, it was always about how they did the narrative wrong, but then it became rape awareness month June on The Escapist. Really, Not to sound insensitive, but this entire thing went WAY TO FAR than what was warranted for the original problem. In response to the insensitive dicks, it maybe warranted, but one comment won't change these people's opinions, heck, anything on an internet forum can dent these peoples' failures in understanding others. I'm just saying I think this is gone too far, and I'm damn sick of it. I understand it can be a big problem, but I just don't have the energy to care too much after how long this wave of R has been going on....

 

[MyNameIsNowNotMyName]

The whole discussion about rape and gaming has got out of hand. I look at my Escapist news feed and there are three whole peices in a single day about rape. Offical peices. Rape rape rape rape rape everywhere i look its another rape discussion. Its getting a little creepy.

Its why I have spent the majority of my week on Rock Paper Shotgun

Yes, rape is trending in gaming news. The reason why? Games have only recently (within the in less than a decade) become advanced enough to regularly include the subject in mainstream titles. Murder in games is almost as old as gaming itself, and it is sanitised, instantanious, and often depicted without a lot of suffering. Rape, however, requires a prolongued portrayal of agony and fear - and that in turn requires the story to take a mature, receptive approach to the issue. But games haven't been doing that. Hence the discussions.

Shit, read gamers, not games. Disregard post, I got really annoyed for no reason.

 

[MyNameIsNowNotMyName]

Let me help you out. Read this....

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9766-The-R-Word

I'm sorry if you feel that someone else's pain has gotten too "silly" for you, but it's time to grow up. To put away childish things and learn that the world doesn't revolve around you. If you have never been a victim of Rape...be thankful for it. Because if you had, you wouldn't think it was "silly", and you certainly wouldn't have written something so damn stupid.

Wow, if you looked at that that is only the experience of ONE rape victim, of thousands, you wouldn't of "written something so damn stupid".

Also, sorry for triple post, I hate editing. I swear, I'm done posting.

 

[chadachada123]

The Holocaust was a terrible, terrible thing - I myself have relatives that didn't make it - but the one millionth Holocaust movie or hearing the Israelis invoke the Holocaust as carte blanche for their own evil is not productive, it invites cynicism and devalues the significance of what happened.

I said I had relatives that didn't make it. Actually, that's not true. But how would anyone know the difference? And what difference would that make to the discussion?

The same is true of rape. It's doing no favor to anyone to make everyone jaded and cynical - to inevitably turn sympathy into eyerolling - by invoking the R-word at every turn.

And this Lara Croft controversy? Evil. Let's be honest. We know what this is about. It is the deliberate courting of controversy to sell boxes.

No matter if you're a man or a woman, a rape victim or not, any sensible person should find this stunt despicable.

I don't think that including the threat of assault is a bad thing, at all, because to NOT include it would be so jarringly unrealistic that we would likely forget that there is a seventeen year old girl alone on an island with a ton of murderers.

That said, its inclusion in promotional materials is most-definitely evil and was done for greedy purposes rather than for furthering a narrative.

 

[Mikodite]

There're a lot of people that seem to view rape as a fate worse than death.

I don't think that anybody apart from a rape victim can truly answer that proposition but I think the high rate of suicide among rape and paedophilia victims speaks for itself.

You're correct that not everybody is affected in the same way or to the same degree but without treatment post traumatic stress CAN BE a fate worse than death.

But this isn't the real issue that is clogging up the blogs an the forums at the moment. It isn't whether rape is a worse fate than death,....

The majority of the discussion is about whether jokingly threatening someone with rape is worse than threatening someone with death.

The former is worse. For all sorts of implied reasons but mainly because there is no such thing as justifiable rape. Justifiable death happens all the time. Justifiable rape does not exist.

Thank you! That may very well be it. Sometimes you may have to kill someone, but for the most part you can walk away from raping another person. The argument Jim was making in essence.

I think the scene with those battle nuns was horrible...I too have beaten sexy battle nuns yea knowing that what I was doing would keep sexy women dressed as nuns in there place. oh god....

Wee, we've finally stopped talking about that?

And this Lara Croft controversy? Evil. Let's be honest. We know what this is about. It is the deliberate courting of controversy to sell boxes.

No matter if you're a man or a woman, a rape victim or not, any sensible person should find this stunt despicable.

Agreed. The sad thing is, the industry remember when this sort of thing worked. Think of all the kids back in the day that thought Mortal Kombat was the shit because it rallied up their parents and many adults wondering if that kind of ultra violence should be marketed as children's entertainment. This is why the Dead-Space "Your Mom won't like it" campaign sprung from, why we we're watching Agent 47 fight fetish-nuns, and why there is implied rape in the next Tomb Raider game.

The industry still thinks that offending people will push product out the door. The sad thing is, they might be right.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

I've always been of the opinion that games should be able to depict whatever they want, as long as there's a market for it. But the notion that not depicting rape to avoid causing a small amount of players emotional pain is somehow offensive to rape victims who have been more resilient and would not mind breaching the topic is a bit counterintuitive. Why would resilient rape victims argue for its inclusion if they know it is going to make other rape victims uncomfortable? In short, the choice to exclude rape by a developer is not trying to accomodate your girlfriend, who is apparently fine with it, but rather the more sensitive victims who get nightmares about this sort of thing.

 

[Nomanslander]

Now if we try to ask the same question again, I still can't seem to get past the notion of why rape needs to be in video games to begin with if it has nothing to do with the story.

For pornographic reasons, of course.

Ok?? Well--that's wrong!

Maybe I'm still missing something here, but if that's what it's also going to be used for...it's wrong!

And those are my two cents.

 

[Jimesis]

Hey Elf, thanks so much for sharing your experience! This is a supremely personal thing and it's kind of you to enlighten us, it really enriches the thread.

What happened to you and your feelings on it illustrate how varied reactions to this kind of trauma can be. There's so many variables to consider, like the type of person one is, his/her relationship to their attacker, and how he/she was attacked. You can't generalize about an experience like this at all and it's unfortunate that people try. You also can't really understand someone's perspective if you don't speak with them about it.

I haven't gone into details about my gf's attack because sharing that was not a decision I was comfortable making on my own. I asked her if it would be ok and she said "Go for it" without hesitation, so here's me going for it:

When she was 16 she went to another city to visit one of her best friends from when she was a kid. On her last night there her friend's younger brother (whom my gf also grew up with) and his friends offered her a ride to the grey hound bus station. She spent the next few hours locked in the back of a van fighting against 4 guys as they took turns with her while the driver kept them moving through the city. She fought hard at first, screamed and bit and clawed, but they hurt her until she stopped struggling for fear of her life. They dumped her off not far from the bus station, bruised and frightened and short a tooth or two. She never told her friend what happened and never went back.

From what she told me it was a very hard several months after that. She sought help for a bit and eventually overcame it. I met her around a year after the assault and would never have known about it at all if she didn't tell me about it later on. She sees herself as the same person she was before, but maybe a bit tougher now. She's obviously not happy it happened and doesn't feel like the experience has bettered her some way but she also doesn't feel like it's hobbled the rest of her life. And I'm inclined to agree.

Contrast that with this:

One of my closest friends passed away very suddenly due to illness last year. He was a wonderful person on top of being built like a tall line backer, all the girls called him a teddy bear. When he was much smaller though he was often abused sexually by an older family member. The thing that was worth noting here is that while he hated what this person did to him he loved the person. He was even sad when they passed away. I wasn't even aware that was possible before he shared.

@ Mechanized:

She (and I) were upset over the implied generalization that everyone who was raped goes on to lead sad broken lives completely unable to overcome what's happened to them. I know that for some people this is a sad reality, and they are not somehow "lesser" for not being able to put the trauma behind them, but that's not everyone.

There is also the view that rape isn't a big deal for anyone and victims should just get over it. This too is really offensive, even to my gf, and especially for people who can't get past the trauma at all.

Both views are pretty condescending but I'm sure they spring from ignorance rather than malice. People in general do not understand what rape can do to someone, its implications, and the many ways that one can come to cope with what happened. And the reason people are ignorant is because we never talk about the subject seriously. It's either tip-toed around for fear of offending someone or its trivialized and brushed aside.

The way to change this is to talk about it. To make it a serious discussion. One way to start is, yes, by having rape in games. I'm not saying make some games where you the player are a rapist, but we've gotta stop pretending that rape is not a thing that happens. I'm also not saying that the makers of Tomb Raider are a righteous forward thinking bunch. Regardless of their reasoning though they should be allowed to continue. Look at how much discussion was brought up from just a few seconds of a stupid trailer and some really poor word choices by the game's producers. I think as a result of this a lot of people will come out with a better understand of rape and the people it happens to, and this is a very good thing.

 

[wintercoat]

In my opinion about the controversy, portrayal of rape should never be taboo. That being said, the guy who commented about protecting Lara Croft made an idiotic statement. That says very little about the game or him as a person. He goofed, get over it.

It wasn't just some guy who made that comment. It was the director of the game, the guy who decides how the story unfolds. He's literally making this game as a white knight simulator. It says more than a little about someone when they throw a teenager in their creation through a meat grinder so they can "protect her" to feel good about themselves.