This whole Rape Controversy has gotten silly,

[Frankster]

I am thoroughly disgusted by this attitude that "suffering builds character". There is no such thing. You're a person. When you're hurt, it will stay with you for a while. If you're hurt badly enough, it will stay with you forever. Those that say you get stronger have no idea what it's like to be traumatized, and if they do, they're lying to themselves in the hopes it will make the pain go away. It doesn't, but as long as society thinks it does, it's okay.

As someone who works in a mental heath clinic, this ^

I'll add that the thing about "suffering builds character" is that to cope with trauma the person must develop coping mechanisms.
These coping mechanisms then become paradigms in other tough situations which in the case of extreme trauma need advanced coping strategies which when developped, are indeed more advanced then others who haven't gone through the trauma and is the part thought off as a "strength".

 

[Smeatza]

I am by no means well educated on the subject.
But is it really true that suffering never, in any situations, inspires strength or builds character?
I look at people like Oprah Winfrey and I have to wonder if it's always the case that it cripples you.
I mean, it seems a little demeaning to say to somone who feels they might have completely overcome and got passed their abuse, "no, you are still traumatized."

 

[random3]

just going to say this for the people too scared to say it and im going to get a shit load of flame for this but had to be said. THIS IS A GAMING WEBSITE not a psychiatrists office, your not going to change the world with one article and you just put a "downer" on people who read it. i dont disagree with your point i disagree with how you put it across everyone who says its not the right place to say it is right.

Well I hope no one flames you, though it's not like I have a command of anyone here. I will say that I'm not trying to "change the world", I just want to talk about an idea and how our society views it, as well as how/if it is/can/should be expressed in the medium of videogames.

I understand that it could bring people down which is why I wrote a disclaimer in the beginning. I don't know about you, but I think several people have added some meaningful insights to this conversation, have shared some very personal memories, and maybe learned about ideas and perspectives they weren't aware of before. In my book that makes the whole thread worthwhile. But then we might not even be playing the same game here.

I realize the OP tried to be respectful to a degree, this post comes off as a really juvenile attempt at a serious discussion of a subject the OP doesn't really understand.

Hmmm... I thought my post was really well thought out and quite serious, I'd also say that I understand the subject matter about as well as one can without experiencing the trauma himself. If the writing comes across as juvenile to you it's likely a deficiency on my part. If it's not too much trouble can I ask you to expand and explain what you mean?

the point is the article is completely unnecessary it should be said on that other article to

 

[Jimesis]

I am thoroughly disgusted by this attitude that "suffering builds character". There is no such thing. You're a person. When you're hurt, it will stay with you for a while. If you're hurt badly enough, it will stay with you forever. Those that say you get stronger have no idea what it's like to be traumatized, and if they do, they're lying to themselves in the hopes it will make the pain go away. It doesn't, but as long as society thinks it does, it's okay.

This is exactly the opinion that bothered my gf and myself and inspired me to start this thread in the first place. I'm not saying that some people aren't forever wounded by intense trauma, but to say that people who think they've overcome trauma don't exist or are lying to themselves is more than a little offensive.

Now, again, I'm not saying you meant your post maliciously. I believe that you, and everyone who expresses a similar opinion, does so with the best of intentions. But being with a person who has been through something anyone would describe as horrifying and believes herself to be fine and happy now tells me that the above view can't be universally true.

I mentioned before that another really close friend of mine was sexually abused for a long time and he also went on living without being crippled by the experience. He passed away not very long ago, so it's not like I can talk to him about this anymore. Though to be honest if I ever had a chance to talk to him again all this would be far FAR from the top of my list of topics. Still though the only two victims of sexual assault I've known were not forced by their psyches to be chained to their pain forever and ever. I'm not implying that their experience is the norm. I haven't known enough people who had this happen to them. However their existence, logically, suggests that there are other people who have felt similar to the way they have.

There are very very VERY few things that are universally true when we talk about the way people feel, behave, and react to and in any given situation. Almost all generalizations that are made about such things are wrong because exceptions always exist.

 

[Jimesis]

the point is the article is completely unnecessary

Sorry to double post, you snuck your reply in while I was typing something else.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree? I've seen four official pieces on the subject of rape here on the escapist between Jim Sterling's Rape vs Murder video and the three features, written by Anonymous, Andy Chalk, and that one about TV tropes folding under pressure from Google.

The worth of anything is totally subject, one man's trash and all. And if you feel the thread is "trash" my apologies, you're free to ignore it and I will make sure not to quote you in the future as not to pester your inbox.

However there are at least a few other people here who think the conversation is worth having. And even if there was just One other person I feel it would still be worth the time. Like I said, not trying to set the world on fire with a forum post. Just having a discussion I feel should happen more often. Gotta start somewhere.

 

[random3]

ure missing the point though this isnt the medium to discuss it lol if mario got tired n did it with peach then that would be relevant but alas it hasnt lol

 

[Da Orky Man]

Has anyone here actually seen the Tomb Raider trailer? When I first watched it, I finished it wondering where this supposed almost-rape scene was supposed to occur. Turns out it was when a guy grabs her, she pushes back and shoots him. If no-one had said anything, I wouldn't have realised that was attempted rape.

 

[random3]

Has anyone here actually seen the Tomb Raider trailer? When I first watched it, I finished it wondering where this supposed almost-rape scene was supposed to occur. Turns out it was when a guy grabs her, she pushes back and shoots him. If no-one had said anything, I wouldn't have realised that was attempted rape.

didnt even know there was in tomb raider... doesnt surprise me given the tone lol looks good though

 

[holdthephone]

I don't see why we can't even give the game developers a chance. No subject is off limits in a free form of expression. If they get rape "wrong," then shame on them. But news articles thus far are pretty much spinning this how they please, and the game isn't even out.

 

[Kanatatsu]

I realize the OP tried to be respectful to a degree, this post comes off as a really juvenile attempt at a serious discussion of a subject the OP doesn't really understand.

Hmmm... I thought my post was really well thought out and quite serious, I'd also say that I understand the subject matter about as well as one can without experiencing the trauma himself. If the writing comes across as juvenile to you it's likely a deficiency on my part. If it's not too much trouble can I ask you to expand and explain what you mean?

Okay here is one thing that jumped out at me: you made a very elementary comparison between killing and rape, concluding that killing is much worse.

It's a more complex discussion than that--the motives behind each action matter.

Killing in a video game can be pretty easily disassociated from the motives of actual murder in real life (which are widely varied).

Rape has no similar shades of grey (excuse the unfortunate pop culture reference). Rape is always a horror inflicted upon a victim to exhibit control and to cause suffering. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to disassociate rape in a game or any other context from its real life motives, which are dreadful.

To put this very simply, I can easily squash a koopah as Mario and "kill" it, secure in the knowledge that this act of "killing" is a trivial manipulation of game pixels. It's a nothing, and while you can query whether it continues to be a nothing as you slaughter civilians in Call of Duty or Skyrim, the point is that it CAN be disassociated from real murder.

I cannot view Mario raping the Princess (or a koopah) in that same light, no matter how many mental hoops I try to jump through. It's a horrible act, full stop, even with pixels involved.

This is why people who dislike the word "rape" feel the way they do--because it is not possible to neuter the impact of that word on its hearers ... and for some hearers that impact is particularly devastating.

 

[Jimesis]

ure missing the point though this isnt the medium to discuss it lol if mario got tired n did it with peach then that would be relevant but alas it hasnt lol

lol, ok Random you have a point. How about this, I'll try to explain my reasoning for posting here and if you still believe this is the wrong place to do it I'll give more consideration to where I make topics in the future, deal?

- So my gf and I see the tomb raider trailer and don't see anything wrong. Actually looking forward to the game.

- Game producer/marketing department misstep pretty badly, a poorly thought out quote gets exposed to the wild internet and provokes a harsh backlash.

- Because of this controversy many people drop their two cents into the well. One of the view points brought up is that people who have been raped, as a whole, are badly scarred emotionally and can't handle being exposed to depictions of Rape.

- My gf, who has been raped, takes offense to the implication. Listening to her reasoning I also take offense.

- Here on the escapist several official writers weighed in and said that rape is a subject too sensitive for video games, and that the video game community as a whole just isn't mature enough for the subject matter.

- I felt compelled to discuss the topics of A) how people perceive rape victims B) whether rape can/should be present in videogame storytelling, and C) whether Raping a character in game is inherently worse than Murdering them.

So there you have it, this is why I posted in a videogame forum.

I realize the OP tried to be respectful to a degree, this post comes off as a really juvenile attempt at a serious discussion of a subject the OP doesn't really understand.

Hmmm... I thought my post was really well thought out and quite serious, I'd also say that I understand the subject matter about as well as one can without experiencing the trauma himself. If the writing comes across as juvenile to you it's likely a deficiency on my part. If it's not too much trouble can I ask you to expand and explain what you mean?

Okay here is one thing that jumped out at me: you made a very elementary comparison between killing and rape, concluding that killing is much worse.

It's a more complex discussion than that--the motives behind each action matter.

Killing in a video game can be pretty easily disassociated from the motives of actual murder in real life (which are widely varied).

Rape has no similar shades of grey (excuse the unfortunate pop culture reference). Rape is always a horror inflicted upon a victim to exhibit control and to cause suffering. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to disassociate rape in a game or any other context from its real life motives, which are dreadful.

To put this very simply, I can easily squash a koopah as Mario and "kill" it, secure in the knowledge that this act of "killing" is a trivial manipulation of game pixels. It's a nothing, and while you can query whether it continues to be a nothing as you slaughter civilians in Call of Duty or Skyrim, the point is that it CAN be disassociated from real murder.

I cannot view Mario raping the Princess (or a koopah) in that same light, no matter how many mental hoops I try to jump through. It's a horrible act, full stop, even with pixels involved.

This is why people who dislike the word "rape" feel the way they do--because it is not possible to neuter the impact of that word on its hearers ... and for some hearers that impact is particularly devastating.

You make a really valid point there. I don't wholly agree with it, but I can see where you're coming from.

I don't think that the impact of the word "rape" can't be diluted because we have evidence that it can. Namely how widely it gets used as a term for beating someone really bad at some form of competition. In this use, for the people who use it, the word has basically no impact at all. It's the same as saying "you got owned." Now I'm NOT (forgot the not and had to edit it in :/ ) saying it's right that people use it this freely, I'm just pointing out that it happens.

I've never been raped but I can pretty confidently say I'd choose it over death. My gf was brutally raped but she shares my opinion on that matter. I suppose though that since I've already admitted that experience is subjective and generalizations are inherently wrong for me to have also said death is worse than rape Full Stop is hypocritical. I didn't realize at the time of writing, thank you I retract the statement.

Now to say that rape is a singularly evil act, I agree. To say that murder (which I also think is inherently evil) can be justified while rape can't, I'm not sure I agree. I believe, in my heart of hearts, that killing is ALWAYS an act of evil. It can sometimes be necessary but it is not something that should ever be considered lightly. I've previously posed the question, if you can justify murdering someone as a punishment for something could you not justify raping them? If you've already decided that someone is so evil as to deserve the evil of death visited upon them is it that much of a leap to say that rape might also be deserved?

The Mario/Peach example falls on the totally evil unjustified side of the spectrum. But, say you were playing some other game where the villain (gender of your character and the villain doesn't really matter) had killed a whole bunch of your loved ones and committed many other atrocities besides, is your character still the vilest of villains for raping this person?

It's true that you could dissociate the emotions involved in "killing" something digital because you aren't actually "killing" anything. But I don't know that everyone actually does that consciously. When I'm playing Mario I don't think to myself, okay it's time to squash some pixels, I say I am Mario and I'm here to kill some goombas and kick some koopa ass. If playing Crackdown and I'm throwing cars off of tall buildings into crowds of people I'm not consciously thinking about pixels, I'm considering them as enemies or victims in the context of my immersion within the game. Now in the back of my mind I know that I can do whatever terrible thing I want in a game because the game is not real, these are in fact pixels, they don't have emotions, or families, or home lives that I'm ruining, it's just a game. You'd never do these things in real life (I hope), but in a place devoid of actual consequences for yourself or your victims anything's fair game. No pun intended.

 

[loa]

The way they handled the scene in Tomb Raider could have been handled better, sure. Maybe even the intent behind it, that Lara's femininity would be leveraged to make her a damsel in distress for you the big strong player to protect, was a little messed up and ran against the grain of her established character.

"The female character is independent for the lack of any other characters shown?
Well nope, a man is controlling her!"

What.
This makes no sense at all.

The female lead character needs the male player to "protect" them?
This is the most inane piece of non-logic I have ever seen emanating from this.
Who came up with that? Who is that hardcore feminist that just tries way the fuck too hard?

The actions displayed in-game are the characters, not the players.
Christ.

 

[Timberwolf0924]

I think it's BS that it's gone this far.

This whole thing is people who are offended just to be offended and people who are not offended because "why the hell should we be!?"

One, he came onto her yea, but he didn't do anything.

Two, he's a 'bad guy' would the world think it better of the guy started beating the shit out of her and then was about to finally kill her before she was able to defened herself.

Three, she didn't get raped!

Yes there are victims out there who are all "oh my god, how could they show this" because it's a damn game.

We'll never be able to expand our media as an art, or entertainment if we can't touch subjects that others are more than willing to get into. People still see Video Games as that.. Games. I perfer digial entertainment, and like a movie they all have ratings. G,PG,PG-13,R,NC-17,M, and a movie where someone is raped eg; Last House on the Left wasn't blown up this bad.

Maybe thats what it is, instead of a 'almost rape' why not make it go all the way and then she kills him. Maybe thats what we need is to stop just testing the waters and just jump right in.

 

[Kahunaburger]

The way they handled the scene in Tomb Raider could have been handled better, sure. Maybe even the intent behind it, that Lara's femininity would be leveraged to make her a damsel in distress for you the big strong player to protect, was a little messed up and ran against the grain of her established character.

"The female character is independent for the lack of any other characters shown?
Well nope, a man is controlling her!"

What.
This makes no sense at all.

The female lead character needs the male player to "protect" them?
This is the most inane piece of non-logic I have ever seen emanating from this.
Who came up with that? Who is that hardcore feminist that just tries way the fuck too hard?

The actions displayed in-game are the characters, not the players.
Christ.

Re: "Who is that hardcore feminist that just tries way the fuck too hard?", that would be the executive producer.

?When people play Lara, they don?t really project themselves into the character,? Rosenberg told me at E3 last week when I asked if it was difficult to develop for a female protagonist.

?They?re more like ?I want to protect her.? There?s this sort of dynamic of ?I?m going to this adventure with her and trying to protect her.??

?She?s definitely the hero but? you?re kind of like her helper,? he said. ?When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character.?

?You see that in the beginning of the game, where we begin to build her up and give her confidence to cross the ledge, cross the plane, she forages for food and she?s feeling really successful. Then towards the end we start to really hit her, and to break her down. Her best friend is kidnapped, she?s taken hostage, she?s almost raped, we put her in this position where we turned her into a cornered animal.?

Needless to say, that's no longer the company line.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Are we so prudish that we can't handle a lil s&m or watch our hero can't fight her way out of a rape situation?

That's an... odd... choice of things to juxtapose.

 

[The Elf Herself]

Hell, my favorite game has a bit about rape. You don't see anything, but it's heavily implied that a minor side character was raped. This character doesn't want to discuss it, so you don't. She says she doesn't want to be seen as helpless and delicate. That's it.

Aha! Dragon Age Origins, referring to Shianni's kidnapping, am I right? You have excellent tastes.

Well spotted! Yep, Dragon Age: Origins. Man, I love that game.

OT: If this controversy proves anything, it's that we have to stop pretending that everyone's experiences are going to be the same, even in video games and among rape victims. If Lara Croft shoots her attacker after the what I would probably call sexual assault and that winds up being a defining moment for her character, fine.

Shianni from Dragon Age: Origins didn't need that, but wanted the not-yet-Warden to brutally murder the guy who raped her. Fine.

Someone wants to make a psychological horror sort of game in which a rape victim protagonist has to re-live the pain over and over? Fine.

Food for thought: Since even rape victims have a variety of reactions to the way rape is handled in games, perhaps developers need to take a look at that and portray a variety of reactions and responses to rape IN their games. Maybe that's the real "mature" way to handle this: portray a lot of different perspectives. Maybe a character who chooses to let their rape be known by the other characters could have to deal with varying and occasionally not supportive reactions. That could even be a character-building moment, if the victim/survivor character pushes through it all and maybe isn't at peace with what happened to him/her (because as far as I know, that's impossible), but has the door to recovery wide open and is about to step through. It could be seen as a long journey, but one that the character is willing to take, for his or her own sake. Maybe that could be the happy ending option to the psychological horror idea I mentioned above, right before the protagonist gets eaten by dimensional horrors from beyond the veil of time and space.

Either way, I don't think that game could be seen as offensive by anyone who actually played it. (But sometimes people cause controversy because other people's faces look funny all purple.) Hell, I would play that game, PTSD triggers and my own personal cowardice be damned.

What upsets me about rape as it is currently handled in the media is that it tends to be portrayed as some sort of coming-of-age trope because our character is young and female and what else could happen to her to make her stronger? That's not intended as as judgment on Tomb Raider, since it hasn't even come out yet, but I see it in books and movies a lot. It's right up there with "killing off grandparents and/or mentor characters" on the list of "How to Get The Elf Herself a Little Less Interested in Your Story." It's just kind of overdone at this point, and we need something new to shake things up, I think.

 

[random3]

ure missing the point though this isnt the medium to discuss it lol if mario got tired n did it with peach then that would be relevant but alas it hasnt lol

lol, ok Random you have a point. How about this, I'll try to explain my reasoning for posting here and if you still believe this is the wrong place to do it I'll give more consideration to where I make topics in the future, deal?

- So my gf and I see the tomb raider trailer and don't see anything wrong. Actually looking forward to the game.

- Game producer/marketing department misstep pretty badly, a poorly thought out quote gets exposed to the wild internet and provokes a harsh backlash.

- Because of this controversy many people drop their two cents into the well. One of the view points brought up is that people who have been raped, as a whole, are badly scarred emotionally and can't handle being exposed to depictions of Rape.

- My gf, who has been raped, takes offense to the implication. Listening to her reasoning I also take offense.

- Here on the escapist several official writers weighed in and said that rape is a subject too sensitive for video games, and that the video game community as a whole just isn't mature enough for the subject matter.

- I felt compelled to discuss the topics of A) how people perceive rape victims B) whether rape can/should be present in videogame storytelling, and C) whether Raping a character in game is inherently worse than Murdering them.

So there you have it, this is why I posted in a videogame forum.

I realize the OP tried to be respectful to a degree, this post comes off as a really juvenile attempt at a serious discussion of a subject the OP doesn't really understand.

Hmmm... I thought my post was really well thought out and quite serious, I'd also say that I understand the subject matter about as well as one can without experiencing the trauma himself. If the writing comes across as juvenile to you it's likely a deficiency on my part. If it's not too much trouble can I ask you to expand and explain what you mean?

Okay here is one thing that jumped out at me: you made a very elementary comparison between killing and rape, concluding that killing is much worse.

It's a more complex discussion than that--the motives behind each action matter.

Killing in a video game can be pretty easily disassociated from the motives of actual murder in real life (which are widely varied).

Rape has no similar shades of grey (excuse the unfortunate pop culture reference). Rape is always a horror inflicted upon a victim to exhibit control and to cause suffering. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to disassociate rape in a game or any other context from its real life motives, which are dreadful.

To put this very simply, I can easily squash a koopah as Mario and "kill" it, secure in the knowledge that this act of "killing" is a trivial manipulation of game pixels. It's a nothing, and while you can query whether it continues to be a nothing as you slaughter civilians in Call of Duty or Skyrim, the point is that it CAN be disassociated from real murder.

I cannot view Mario raping the Princess (or a koopah) in that same light, no matter how many mental hoops I try to jump through. It's a horrible act, full stop, even with pixels involved.

This is why people who dislike the word "rape" feel the way they do--because it is not possible to neuter the impact of that word on its hearers ... and for some hearers that impact is particularly devastating.

You make a really valid point there. I don't wholly agree with it, but I can see where you're coming from.

I don't think that the impact of the word "rape" can't be diluted because we have evidence that it can. Namely how widely it gets used as a term for beating someone really bad at some form of competition. In this use, for the people who use it, the word has basically no impact at all. It's the same as saying "you got owned." Now I'm NOT (forgot the not and had to edit it in :/ ) saying it's right that people use it this freely, I'm just pointing out that it happens.

I've never been raped but I can pretty confidently say I'd choose it over death. My gf was brutally raped but she shares my opinion on that matter. I suppose though that since I've already admitted that experience is subjective and generalizations are inherently wrong for me to have also said death is worse than rape Full Stop is hypocritical. I didn't realize at the time of writing, thank you I retract the statement.

Now to say that rape is a singularly evil act, I agree. To say that murder (which I also think is inherently evil) can be justified while rape can't, I'm not sure I agree. I believe, in my heart of hearts, that killing is ALWAYS an act of evil. It can sometimes be necessary but it is not something that should ever be considered lightly. I've previously posed the question, if you can justify murdering someone as a punishment for something could you not justify raping them? If you've already decided that someone is so evil as to deserve the evil of death visited upon them is it that much of a leap to say that rape might also be deserved?

The Mario/Peach example falls on the totally evil unjustified side of the spectrum. But, say you were playing some other game where the villain (gender of your character and the villain doesn't really matter) had killed a whole bunch of your loved ones and committed many other atrocities besides, is your character still the vilest of villains for raping this person?

It's true that you could dissociate the emotions involved in "killing" something digital because you aren't actually "killing" anything. But I don't know that everyone actually does that consciously. When I'm playing Mario I don't think to myself, okay it's time to squash some pixels, I say I am Mario and I'm here to kill some goombas and kick some koopa ass. If playing Crackdown and I'm throwing cars off of tall buildings into crowds of people I'm not consciously thinking about pixels, I'm considering them as enemies or victims in the context of my immersion within the game. Now in the back of my mind I know that I can do whatever terrible thing I want in a game because the game is not real, these are in fact pixels, they don't have emotions, or families, or home lives that I'm ruining, it's just a game. You'd never do these things in real life (I hope), but in a place devoid of actual consequences for yourself or your victims anything's fair game. No pun intended.

but the think is it hurt you gf because it has more of a phsycological imbalancing effect on ones self thats why it shouldnt be in game where as blowing a guys brains out across a wall can have a different reason behind it after all no one was up in arms that the guy who was going to rape lara croft was shot if so its more of a case that it shouldnt be in a game because it has no logical merit to the portrayal of the story line. the whole point is that discussing the rape subject is to relate it to a game in particular but theres no point in bringing it up it was like less then 10 seconds and i know people who have been raped and they dnt care if its in a game or not theyll even play it. but the fact your discussing why its being discussed has no point it wont stop people posting it and ill say the same to people who are discussing the tomb raider game scene in particular it has no point in discussing it. if anything its a positive psychological ploy as it acts as a satisfaction that the guy got shot in the face lol

 

[Smeggs]

"Videogames need to be taken more seriously!"

"BOO! This game is boring, where are the guns and random people to blast away with tanks?"

"Videogames should be seen as an art form!"

"Not when it gets in the way of the actual draw of the game!"

"This ending sucks, we demand better!"

"No, leave it the way it is! Artistic Integrit-OH, NO! You have RAEP IN UR GAEM! How can that possibly be considered an adult theme to be taken seriously? BOO!"

Yeah, check that loop-transition.

Gamers can't ever stay on a single side of the spectrum for more than five seconds, can they?

 

[random3]

not all gamers have the same mindset

 

[mrblakemiller]

OP, thank you so much for starting this thread and telling us about an actual person who has moved on from her experience. I agree wholeheartedly with your point, and it sucks to see the culture we live in practically drill it into the heads of rape victims that their lives must irrevocably change because of it. I remember watching Murderball, a film about quadriplegic rugby players, one of whom said breaking his back was the best thing that ever happened to him. Once we realize that people have the ability to transcend these experiences and not carry them around for the rest of their lives (the way, say, I don't break down in tears like I did the first time I thought about my father being dead), we'll finally be able to have these stories and concepts in games and other media without so much blowback. Alas, that time seems quite far off.