Those Mexicans.

[Trace2010]

Okay...

Speaking as someone who does live on the U.S./Mexico border, I have both seen the best and the worst sides of the Mexican culture. I was always amazed at how singular individuals in Ciudad Juarez could erect an entire school on budgets that would make a Wal Mart employee cringe if it became their yearly salary. I have experienced firsthand their dedication to family achievements, great food, and contributions into Jazz Music.

I will tell all inquisitive readers this: Many attempts at reforming illegal immigration within the United States are circumvented by the very people said reform is trying to protect. I am sorry if this runs a little long...but this is what I have seen and what I know.

Border rights groups such as the League of United Latin American Citizens and La Raza have already made connections so that the words "illegal immigrant" or "undocumented alien" (depending on your level of political correctness) automatically mean "MEXICAN", and the words "illegal immigration policy" automatically mean something undermining to "keep Mexicans out." This belief is further augmented by the fact that those constituents that are requesting immigration policy reform are otherwise known as "racists"- labeled by these groups.

While Hollywood has had some outstanding national ("Spanglish" with Adam Sandler) and international/foreign films focusing on the plights of Mexican immigrants, the purpose of these films "seems to be" illiciting sympathy rather than calling for outright change. Jennifer Lopez recently starred in an independent film about the disappearances and murders of women in Ciudad Juarez (I can't remember the title). However, stories of exploitation of illegal immigrants, both by white employers and by OTHER ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS abound. Illegals are easy to hire, welcome pay under the table (which can easily be manipulated-think tax purposes), and rarely complain about things such as minimum wage or safe working conditions.

On the other hand, the drain on the resources of border cities is very tangible, particularly in the school districts (who are overrun with students, and are not allowed to ask for legal status), and in hospitals (where emergency care- especially POST-NATAL, is considered a "right" to anyone).


The rumors are true...Ciudad Juarez is currently held hostage by the drug wars. Either two factions of one cartel (questing for power), or two independent cartels are fighting for control of the trade north through New Mexico and Texas. Several hundred deaths have occurred as a result of these wars- and many El Pasoans who used to visit friends and relatives (and go drinking- the legal age is 18 in Mexico), are no longer visiting Juarez, causing losses within the tourist trade.

 

[afrophysics]

Since I'm brown, I often get confused by simple minded Americans/rednecks for a terrorist or a Mexican.

It's hilarious.

You might want to elaborate on "Since I'm brown" because if you're going to reduce it to colour, lot's of very different races are "brown".

 

[Ares Tyr]

Since I'm brown, I often get confused by simple minded Americans/rednecks for a terrorist or a Mexican.

It's hilarious.

What kinda brown we talkin' here?

My Dad is Greek and looks Mexican by skin tone and hair... Unfortunately my Irish mother's blood stole the gift of a year around tan from me... DAMN!

 

[werepossum]

Two things spring to mind for me, and they don't have to do with Mexico so much as Mexicans in the U.S. The first is that I find it disgusting that some huge industries, meat-packing is the one I've read the most about recently, would bust unions so they don't have to pay family wage or provide safe working conditions, then with complete deliberation turn around and employ undocumented workers to fill the jobs they've made untenable for Americans with families to support. "They took our jobs!" Bullshit, Hormel took your jobs and gave them to people they could knuckle down. Union drive? Call the INS, that'll fix it.

SNIP

Honestly, that's one of my biggest concerns. By allowing huge numbers of illegals, corporations are driving down wages for everyone. As a concept, I don't have a problem with that - get the cheapest labor you can find, or rather the best combination of cheap and hard-working - but driven to excess it threatens to destroy America's large middle class and turn us into a nation of rich resource owners and poor workers. It's a race to the bottom. This isn't specific to Mexicans, though - any race or nationality from a poor nation, or a poor demographic from any nation, is subject to this. Mexicans are the largest group because it's easiest for them to get here and their country kind of sucks ass. (Sorry, unabomberman, but Mexico's government is incredibly corrupt; there's absolutely no reason for Mexico to be less prosperous than the US and Canada.) But we also have Hondurans, Guatemalans, Somalians, Eastern Europeans, Peruvians, Colombians, Russians, Indians, Chinese - people from practically all undeveloped or moderately oppressed countries come to the USA for a better life. It's always been that way, but corporations have discovered that if you import enough of them, you can radically drop wages and especially benefits.

Two examples: First, a La-Z-Boy plant in the town nearest which I was raised. It used to be the number one in the country for quality and production. Workers were by production (paid by the piece) and rejected work counted against you, so if you worked very hard and were good at your job, you could make really good money (for this area, anyway) and also have some benefits. Wages for good workers were typically $18 to $25 per hour, plus benefits, and bad workers were quickly replaced because the company made more money off of the good workers. They did have a nasty reputation for firing everyone a year or two before earning full retirement benefits. Then they began to recruit illegal workers, mostly Mexican and Central/South American, and paid them near-minimum wage (typically $5 to $7 per hour at the time) with no benefits. Production went down because it was no longer tied to output, and quality went down because the workers were not trained woodworkers or furniture-makers. Now it's one of their worst plants, but apparently it's still cheaper to hire illegals and pay them low wages. Since the displaced workers needed work, they had to take lower-paying jobs, driving unskilled or semi-skilled labor wages lower in the whole area whilst leaving skilled, technical, and degreed wages high. Other employers could further cut their costs by reducing benefits, since they had an increased labor pool available.

The second is Dalton, Georgia, which isn't far from me. I used to work in Dalton in the early 80s, at a company that designed and manufactured carpet handling equipment. (In case you don't know, and you probably don't, Dalton is the carpet capital of the country.) At that time the factories were a pretty mixed bag, racially - white, black, Mexican, some Native Americans - and wages were good for the area. There were some illegals - I was in a plant once during a large ICE raid, when a bunch of people run by for no apparent reason there's a strong urge to join them - but not enough to affect wages. Then the carpet manufacturing companies began to go down into Mexico and recruit men to work in Dalton. Now a huge number of workers are illegals, and wages are down in the whole industry. You get a bunch of Spanish-speaking illegals as workers, a few better-educated people (legal or illegal) who are fluent in both Spanish and English as floor walkers and supervisors, and mostly white middle and upper management.

I can't think of much worse than America being divided into castes, with a very large, low-paid, poorly educated worker class and a very small but very rich class of bureaucrats and resource owners - essentially mandarins.

 

[EmperorDude]

I don't like all this illegal immigration but I whole heartedly love legal immigration. I'd love to go to Mexico someday. I really want to learn more about their culture (I live way too far north to really meet many unfortunately But yeah from what I've seen they work their rear ends off for a pitience, are very devoted to their families (something lacking in Western society today) and many are willing to serve in the military. I get a little satisfaction that such people consider our country worth serving in that way. Why I don't know. Maybe I'm a little bit patriotic...something must be wrong with me.

 

[fulano]

Okay...

Speaking as someone who does live on the U.S./Mexico border, I have both seen the best and the worst sides of the Mexican culture. I was always amazed at how singular individuals in Ciudad Juarez could erect an entire school on budgets that would make a Wal Mart employee cringe if it became their yearly salary. I have experienced firsthand their dedication to family achievements, great food, and contributions into Jazz Music.

I will tell all inquisitive readers this: Many attempts at reforming illegal immigration within the United States are circumvented by the very people said reform is trying to protect. I am sorry if this runs a little long...but this is what I have seen and what I know.

Border rights groups such as the League of United Latin American Citizens and La Raza have already made connections so that the words "illegal immigrant" or "undocumented alien" (depending on your level of political correctness) automatically mean "MEXICAN", and the words "illegal immigration policy" automatically mean something undermining to "keep Mexicans out." This belief is further augmented by the fact that those constituents that are requesting immigration policy reform are otherwise known as racists.

While Hollywood has had some outstanding national ("Spanglish" with Adam Sandler) and international/foreign films focusing on the plights of Mexican immigrants, the purpose of these films "seems to be" illiciting sympathy rather than calling for outright change. Jennifer Lopez recently starred in an independent film about the disappearances and murders of women in Ciudad Juarez (I can't remember the title). However, stories of exploitation of illegal immigrants, both by white employers and by OTHER ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS abound. Illegals are easy to hire, welcome pay under the table (which can easily be manipulated-think tax purposes), and rarely complain about things such as minimum wage or safe working conditions.

On the other hand, the drain on the resources of border cities is very tangible, particularly in the school districts (who are overrun with students, and are not allowed to ask for legal status), and in hospitals (where emergency care- especially POST-NATAL, is considered a "right" to anyone).


The rumors are true...Ciudad Juarez is currently held hostage by the drug wars. Either two factions of one cartel (questing for power), or two independent cartels are fighting for control of the trade north through New Mexico and Texas. Several hundred deaths have occurred as a result of these wars- and many El Pasoans who used to visit friends and relatives (and go drinking- the legal age is 18 in Mexico), are no longer visiting Juarez, causing losses within the tourist trade.

First, thanks for replying. I do appreciate it.

Now, I feel it is kind of my duty to speak for my side of the border(don't worry, I'm not gonna go VIVA LA RAZAAA!!!).

Everything you say about immigrants being easy to hire, welcome pay under the table, and rarely complain about things such as minimum wage or safe working conditions, is absolutely true, no question about it. There is a real big problem with that, and it's probably even worse than you think.

The people that do those things, that cross the border illegally to get in your country, are the downtrodden. They reside in the lowest of the lowest echelons of mexican society, and the situation of our country hasn't made it any easier for them. What exactly do you think is needed for a person to leave his/her home, abandon family and friends in an adventure that may or may not pan out, and will probably end with their deaths? I mean, what would you probably need to do that?

Now, picture this: to these people, those less than minimum wages that the U.S citizens are willing to pay-those breadcrumbs- mean a real fortune in any way you measure that money, be it in dollars or even in pesos(1 dollar is roughly 10 pesos).
Even when measuring it, 1 dollar in the U.S is worth much, much more than 1 peso in México.

They are the uneducated and desperate of our country. The situation here is such that while the price of basic subsistence items goes up every month, so does inflation; there are yearly cuts in the government's expenditure when it concerns to education, basic maintenance of services, etc. Even our social medical service is in tatters (and it wasn't always the case, I got surgery and radiation therapy from that) AND still maintain the high salaries for people working there; easily put, to our inept and corrupt government they are more important and valuable staying in YOUR country ILLEGALLY, settling for less and dealing with whatever weird ass conditions they get than what you would on your sane mind, because they can send money over HERE, to their family who actually needs it, and from there filtering to our own broken economy.

Did you know that the largest sums of money coming to Mexico from outside the country is what THEY send, only next to our exports of OIL? Bigger than corn, denim, or fruits or sugar.

Trust me, the situation won't get better because at the end of the day, our government isn't doing anything to improve things in here. Rest assured that the highest echelons of society doesn't want them here, either. They are expatriates in every sense of the word because they are ignorant and do not realize that the choice they think they made was taken a while back by someone else when rich ?businessmen? morons started running the country into the ground. So, they WILL keep going to the U.S because, to be honest, as long as there is DEMAND, and really, it's the best shot they got in their position.

Consider this conundrum: You can't let them in legally because then you'd have a shitload of more people trying to get in. You can't really stop them, not even by building a wall, and since they'll keep coming, the only step left for your country looks to be taking seems to be applying even more forceful measures to keep them out, raising the death tally by thousands, but not the overall people getting in, because make no mistake: This people will not stop.
And yet, they still find employment once inside. They are illegal immigrants so they can't be unionize, if you fire one without justification he/she can't sue, you don't even have to pay minimum wage.
It's ?nightmare free market 101?. Our national currency is INCEDIBLY devalued historically, 1 peso is actually a 1000 pesos, you do the math on that one and magnify it to nationwide expenditure. It's only a name change but the problem still persists.
In a way, it's our fault too, because the worse that we have, the desperate that we have, are going THERE to your home turf, causing problems for you because even though many just want to work to get by, there are also other many that just want money and are willing to do anything to get it.

You can chalk it to our country's government being in such a messed up state that it actually wants them to be there.

The only way this thing can be possibly fixed is on the mexican side, and I don't see that happening either.

Hope that at least made some sense and didn't come off as too preachy.

 

[Spartan Bannana]

I'm American first off, and there are many of us along with the Europeans here.
I have no problem with Mexicans as long as they speak English in our country, if I lived in Mexico I'd learn Spanish, I don't care if they speak it in their homes, but in public, if the national language is English, it's just common courtesy.

 

[Spleeni]

Okay...

Speaking as someone who does live on the U.S./Mexico border, I have both seen the best and the worst sides of the Mexican culture. I was always amazed at how singular individuals in Ciudad Juarez could erect an entire school on budgets that would make a Wal Mart employee cringe if it became their yearly salary. I have experienced firsthand their dedication to family achievements, great food, and contributions into Jazz Music.

I will tell all inquisitive readers this: Many attempts at reforming illegal immigration within the United States are circumvented by the very people said reform is trying to protect. I am sorry if this runs a little long...but this is what I have seen and what I know.

Border rights groups such as the League of United Latin American Citizens and La Raza have already made connections so that the words "illegal immigrant" or "undocumented alien" (depending on your level of political correctness) automatically mean "MEXICAN", and the words "illegal immigration policy" automatically mean something undermining to "keep Mexicans out." This belief is further augmented by the fact that those constituents that are requesting immigration policy reform are otherwise known as "racists"- labeled by these groups.

While Hollywood has had some outstanding national ("Spanglish" with Adam Sandler) and international/foreign films focusing on the plights of Mexican immigrants, the purpose of these films "seems to be" illiciting sympathy rather than calling for outright change. Jennifer Lopez recently starred in an independent film about the disappearances and murders of women in Ciudad Juarez (I can't remember the title). However, stories of exploitation of illegal immigrants, both by white employers and by OTHER ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS abound. Illegals are easy to hire, welcome pay under the table (which can easily be manipulated-think tax purposes), and rarely complain about things such as minimum wage or safe working conditions.

On the other hand, the drain on the resources of border cities is very tangible, particularly in the school districts (who are overrun with students, and are not allowed to ask for legal status), and in hospitals (where emergency care- especially POST-NATAL, is considered a "right" to anyone).


The rumors are true...Ciudad Juarez is currently held hostage by the drug wars. Either two factions of one cartel (questing for power), or two independent cartels are fighting for control of the trade north through New Mexico and Texas. Several hundred deaths have occurred as a result of these wars- and many El Pasoans who used to visit friends and relatives (and go drinking- the legal age is 18 in Mexico), are no longer visiting Juarez, causing losses within the tourist trade.

I live in San Diego, so I'm seeing the same sort of thing. There's a bunch of small businesses around...but only a few are hiring. When driving around town, there ARE Mexicans standing at fences in the shade. The schools don't have any illegals (that I'm aware of), but our economy shows. ESPECIALLY for us teens who want jobs -.-

 

[werepossum]

Okay...

Speaking as someone who does live on the U.S./Mexico border, I have both seen the best and the worst sides of the Mexican culture. I was always amazed at how singular individuals in Ciudad Juarez could erect an entire school on budgets that would make a Wal Mart employee cringe if it became their yearly salary. I have experienced firsthand their dedication to family achievements, great food, and contributions into Jazz Music.

I will tell all inquisitive readers this: Many attempts at reforming illegal immigration within the United States are circumvented by the very people said reform is trying to protect. I am sorry if this runs a little long...but this is what I have seen and what I know.

Border rights groups such as the League of United Latin American Citizens and La Raza have already made connections so that the words "illegal immigrant" or "undocumented alien" (depending on your level of political correctness) automatically mean "MEXICAN", and the words "illegal immigration policy" automatically mean something undermining to "keep Mexicans out." This belief is further augmented by the fact that those constituents that are requesting immigration policy reform are otherwise known as racists.

While Hollywood has had some outstanding national ("Spanglish" with Adam Sandler) and international/foreign films focusing on the plights of Mexican immigrants, the purpose of these films "seems to be" illiciting sympathy rather than calling for outright change. Jennifer Lopez recently starred in an independent film about the disappearances and murders of women in Ciudad Juarez (I can't remember the title). However, stories of exploitation of illegal immigrants, both by white employers and by OTHER ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS abound. Illegals are easy to hire, welcome pay under the table (which can easily be manipulated-think tax purposes), and rarely complain about things such as minimum wage or safe working conditions.

On the other hand, the drain on the resources of border cities is very tangible, particularly in the school districts (who are overrun with students, and are not allowed to ask for legal status), and in hospitals (where emergency care- especially POST-NATAL, is considered a "right" to anyone).


The rumors are true...Ciudad Juarez is currently held hostage by the drug wars. Either two factions of one cartel (questing for power), or two independent cartels are fighting for control of the trade north through New Mexico and Texas. Several hundred deaths have occurred as a result of these wars- and many El Pasoans who used to visit friends and relatives (and go drinking- the legal age is 18 in Mexico), are no longer visiting Juarez, causing losses within the tourist trade.

First, thanks for replying. I do appreciate it.

Now, I feel it is kind of my duty to speak for my side of the border(don't worry, I'm not gonna go VIVA LA RAZAAA!!!).

Everything you say about immigrants being easy to hire, welcome pay under the table, and rarely complain about things such as minimum wage or safe working conditions, is absolutely true, no question about it. There is a real big problem with that, and it's probably even worse than you think.

The people that do those things, that cross the border illegally to get in your country, are the downtrodden. They reside in the lowest of the lowest echelons of mexican society, and the situation of our country hasn't made it any easier for them. What exactly do you think is needed for a person to leave his/her home, abandon family and friends in an adventure that may or may not pan out, and will probably end with their deaths? I mean, what would you probably need to do that?

Now, picture this: to these people, those less than minimum wages that the U.S citizens are willing to pay-those breadcrumbs- mean a real fortune in any way you measure that money, be it in dollars or even in pesos(1 dollar is roughly 10 pesos).
Even when measuring it, 1 dollar in the U.S is worth much, much more than 1 peso in México.

They are the uneducated and desperate of our country. The situation here is such that while the price of basic subsistence items goes up every month, so does inflation; there are yearly cuts in the government's expenditure when it concerns to education, basic maintenance of services, etc. Even our social medical service is in tatters (and it wasn't always the case, I got surgery and radiation therapy from that) AND still maintain the high salaries for people working there; easily put, to our inept and corrupt government they are more important and valuable staying in YOUR country ILLEGALLY, settling for less and dealing with whatever weird ass conditions they get than what you would on your sane mind, because they can send money over HERE, to their family who actually needs it, and from there filtering to our own broken economy.

Did you know that the largest sums of money coming to Mexico from outside the country is what THEY send, only next to our exports of OIL? Bigger than corn, denim, or fruits or sugar.

Trust me, the situation won't get better because at the end of the day, our government isn't doing anything to improve things in here. Rest assured that the highest echelons of society doesn't want them here, either. They are expatriates in every sense of the word because they are ignorant and do not realize that the choice they think they made was taken a while back by someone else when rich ?businessmen? morons started running the country into the ground. So, they WILL keep going to the U.S because, to be honest, as long as there is DEMAND, and really, it's the best shot they got in their position.

Consider this conundrum: You can't let them in legally because then you'd have a shitload of more people trying to get in. You can't really stop them, not even by building a wall, and since they'll keep coming, the only step left for your country looks to be taking seems to be applying even more forceful measures to keep them out, raising the death tally by thousands, but not the overall people getting in, because make no mistake: This people will not stop.
And yet, they still find employment once inside. They are illegal immigrants so they can't be unionize, if you fire one without justification he/she can't sue, you don't even have to pay minimum wage.
It's ?nightmare free market 101?. Our national currency is INCEDIBLY devalued historically, 1 peso is actually a 1000 pesos, you do the math on that one and magnify it to nationwide expenditure. It's only a name change but the problem still persists.
In a way, it's our fault too, because the worse that we have, the desperate that we have, are going THERE to your home turf, causing problems for you because even though many just want to work to get by, there are also other many that just want money and are willing to do anything to get it.

You can chalk it to our country's government being in such a messed up state that it actually wants them to be there.

The only way this thing can be possibly fixed is on the mexican side, and I don't see that happening either.

Hope that at least made some sense and didn't come off as too preachy.

Actually you came off very well. It is indeed up to the Mexican government, but other governments need to police their member companies as well. When all the Maquiladora manufacturing plants were set up in the 80s and 90s, they had tiny parking lots because they know that no matter how hard or how long you work there, you're never going to make enough money to own an automobile. You live in the company apartments, ride the company buses or trams to work (or walk), send your kids to the company schools, and watch them play on the company soccer fields, and when you can no longer work, you're out on your own. That's damn near slavery.

Something odd happened yesterday. One of our electrical designers is from Texas and of Mexican ethnicity, and a factory rep that came by to give a dog and pony show on a daylight harvesting dimming system was also from Texas and is also ethnically Mexican. He's a little older than me, maybe early to mid-fifties, and has more of the Spanish blood (as opposed to Mayan or MesoAmerican Indian) and so is not quite as dark-skinned as most Mexicans. His father actually changed his name, changed the Spanish "ez" to "is" and told people they were Greek because Mexicans at that time were second-class citizens. My co-worker had also faced that discrimination, even though she's not even thirty. I had always assumed that since Texas is roughly 50% ethnic Mexicans, that would be de facto normal and therefore beyond discrimination. Evidently there has been widespread discrimination against ethnic Mexicans even where they form probably the largest group in the population!

Another question - aren't the majority of Mexicans ethnically Mayan or MesoAmerican Indian phenotype as opposed to the pure Spanish phenotype? If so, why are all the Mexican presidents so typically Spanish? Is Mexican culture so caste-driven that Indian types can't run for president, is the political machine so openly corrupt, or what? Or am I just wrong about the make-up of Mexican society?

You're right about the lowest rung of Mexican immigrants not voluntarily returning to Mexico - working for minimum wage or less and living twenty to an apartment beats starving alone in a shanty, what many if not most had in Mexico. If they can find a $8/hour or $10/hour job in a factory, their lives are hugely better than in Mexico (or Guatemala, Honduras, etc.) You can't drive those people away, only arrest them and deport them, and they'll just try again. But some Mexicans are self-deporting as more jobs open up in Mexico. Probably those Mexicans will bring back valuable job skills in addition to capital.

And you're right that the money earned here and sent or brought home can have a big effect there. If a Mexican national works a few months or a few years in the USA and saves some money, what might be a couple months living expenses here might allow him or a relative to open a business in Mexico, providing money for stock, rent, or tools plus living expenses to get started. If most of the corruption can be worked out of the Mexican government, especially at the lower levels, then the money sent back to Mexico via illegal immigration might end up dragging Mexico into the twentieth century or even, dare I say, the twenty-first century despite its government, simply because the money is going directly to poor Mexicans, not subject to being filtered out to the rich Mexican upper strata. When you have almost nothing but you're willing to work hard and sacrifice, a comparatively small amount of wealth can give you a shot at not just surviving, but prospering.

 

[meatloaf231]

Overall, Mexico and Mexicans are pretty cool.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

Hmm... can't say I've ever really thought about it much, I mean, I love the food, you gave us Robert Rodruiguiz, and tequila... That makes you pretty good already. I get most of my information on Mexico from the news, so all I really know is that you have a big problem with drug dealers in some parts. But you seem like a nice bunch generally.

Don't forget Guillermo Del Toro and Alphonso Cuaron, they're both Mexican as well...

In Canada there aren't many Mexican's, so I don't really know what to think of them as a group, all I know is that Paul Fromm (A Canadian Anti-Mexican-Immigration Lobbiest) sounds like a poorly informed jackass, so yeah, no problem with Mexicans. Your nation however scares me, but then again, so do most American and European cities, hell, I'm just kinda scared of anywhere that isn't Canada because I'm a wimp. Anyway, in the news up here, Mexico is a place where Canadian's vacation and occasionally go missing from, so it's a little scary.

 

[TheBadass]

One big thing the USA has over Europe - you guys get a lot of Muslim immigrants who think physical labor is demeaning and that Europe should be Islamic. We get Mexicans and Central and South Americans, hard-working Christians who don't give a damn about our religion as long as there is work available AND who don't think dogs are unclean. Yeah USA!

I'm exercising great self control by not going off the handle here. I found that post incredibly offensive, and I'm not even a Muslim. Educate yourself by talking to people who actually live near Muslim areas (like myself) before making ignorant, sad statements like that.

As for Mexicans... pretty much the only thing I've heard about your culture is from American television. That's not really the best way to judge, huh?

 

[Limos]

I think the reason people are always screaming about Mexicans isn't really that they are stealing jobs. Because no one wants the jobs they are taking. I think it's because they seem intent on not assimilating.

I live in Arizona, which has a large hispanic population. And there are kids who were born in the US, have lived here their entire lives. And are in middle school. That do not speak english. At all.

And then people got pissed off when they had that parade where a whole bunch of mexicans were waving mexican flags and marching around. The US doesn't do dual citizenship. If you want to be American you can't keep acting like you're a part of Mexico. That's what really pisses so many people off.

All the other ethnic groups that immigrated here way back when cheerfully shed their national ties to become American. Most of their cultures got pared down into styles of cooking and holidays. If America is a melting pot then Mexico is the pot roast that stubbornly refuses to soak up the flavor of the dish.

(now i'm hungry. Who's up for pot roast?)

Anyways, I personally don't have a problem with illegal immigrants on the condition that they learn the language. It's hard to get things done when all the lower tier jobs are filled by people you can't communicate with. "No Pablo, I don't need my lawn mowed again. No just- DAMNIT PABLO!! Stop mowing my damn lawn!! I didn't even hire you!! Mow Debbie's lawn next- No, to the lef- THE LEFT!! GO FUCKING LEFT!!!"

 

[fulano]

Actually you came off very well. It is indeed up to the Mexican government, but other governments need to police their member companies as well. When all the Maquiladora manufacturing plants were set up in the 80s and 90s, they had tiny parking lots because they know that no matter how hard or how long you work there, you're never going to make enough money to own an automobile. You live in the company apartments, ride the company buses or trams to work (or walk), send your kids to the company schools, and watch them play on the company soccer fields, and when you can no longer work, you're out on your own. That's damn near slavery.

Well, the whole ?maquila? industry is still going strong in here and growing. And yeah, that's pretty much how it is around here. Those who either don't have the chance at education or blow it start seriously considering working in one.

Something odd happened yesterday. One of our electrical designers is from Texas and of Mexican ethnicity, and a factory rep that came by to give a dog and pony show on a daylight harvesting dimming system was also from Texas and is also ethnically Mexican. He's a little older than me, maybe early to mid-fifties, and has more of the Spanish blood (as opposed to Mayan or MesoAmerican Indian) and so is not quite as dark-skinned as most Mexicans. His father actually changed his name, changed the Spanish "ez" to "is" and told people they were Greek because Mexicans at that time were second-class citizens. My co-worker had also faced that discrimination, even though she's not even thirty. I had always assumed that since Texas is roughly 50% ethnic Mexicans, that would be de facto normal and therefore beyond discrimination. Evidently there has been widespread discrimination against ethnic Mexicans even where they form probably the largest group in the population!
Another question - aren't the majority of Mexicans ethnically Mayan or MesoAmerican Indian phenotype as opposed to the pure Spanish phenotype? If so, why are all the Mexican presidents so typically Spanish? Is Mexican culture so caste-driven that Indian types can't run for president, is the political machine so openly corrupt, or what? Or am I just wrong about the make-up of Mexican society?

Well, there's actually lots of diversity in here. Not like the U.S, but still. We also have white 'uns and redheads in here. But yes, actual native ?Indians? are many, and account for a large part of the population, but as you probably discerned yourself, they got the lower end of the stick since ?the conquest.? Not only did they lose their lands, but also their religion and even their names, which is why my makeup is mostly a mixture (I tend to lean more to the white side), my name is still Alejandro, a greek name brought over from Spain, and my last name is Spanish-Arab rooted, again brought again from Spain (there were Arabs in Spain, you know), and STILL, there's indigenous in me, but what that's called, who knows. And that's just me; you go around and find Jimenez(son of Jaime), Rodriguez(son of Rodrigo), Sanchez(son of Sancho), etc. etc. There's still tons of them natives with their own names, but they're looked down upon. Can you believe that? They were here first and now have to stand at the back of the line.
Right now, even though nobody acknowledges it, exists a very deep rooted racism agains the native population, going so far as to call someone ?Indio? equates to calling someone a moron, even while they are the most disadvantaged of ALL the populations in México. Sucks, huh?
An indigenous resident can constitutionally run for president, that's for sure, but they're probably not even gonna be taken seriously by the money movers. Last election we had this: ?white guy vs white guy vs brown guy,? and people literally pointed at ?brown guy? and said disdainfully ?parece indio!?, which roughly translates to ?looks like an indian!.? Mind you, the shit hit the fan and, now, it depends on who you ask in here, but for my money, ?brown guy? did win and they pulled a total crapjob and stole the election. There were even math doctors that started checking the numbers that the committee put out and noted some friggin' gnarly irregularities in the numbers of the guy who ?won.?
Now, ?brown guy,? wasn't even a full blooded native but that actually tells you something.

You're right about the lowest rung of Mexican immigrants not voluntarily returning to Mexico - working for minimum wage or less and living twenty to an apartment beats starving alone in a shanty, what many if not most had in Mexico. If they can find a $8/hour or $10/hour job in a factory, their lives are hugely better than in Mexico (or Guatemala, Honduras, etc.) You can't drive those people away, only arrest them and deport them, and they'll just try again. But some Mexicans are self-deporting as more jobs open up in Mexico. Probably those Mexicans will bring back valuable job skills in addition to capital.

Those self-deporting Mexicans are in the minorities, trust me.

And you're right that the money earned here and sent or brought home can have a big effect there. If a Mexican national works a few months or a few years in the USA and saves some money, what might be a couple months living expenses here might allow him or a relative to open a business in Mexico, providing money for stock, rent, or tools plus living expenses to get started. If most of the corruption can be worked out of the Mexican government, especially at the lower levels, then the money sent back to Mexico via illegal immigration might end up dragging Mexico into the twentieth century or even, dare I say, the twenty-first century despite its government, simply because the money is going directly to poor Mexicans, not subject to being filtered out to the rich Mexican upper strata. When you have almost nothing but you're willing to work hard and sacrifice, a comparatively small amount of wealth can give you a shot at not just surviving, but prospering.

Yeah, it can. That is the case with my aunt went she went there to the U.S. She got there, she got work, she learned the language and is now a legal citizen; votes, speaks good english, skips jury duty, gets pissed when people refuse to learn the language,etc. But still, she's not assimilated at all, and still considers herself Mexican and an U.S citizen.

The real problem with México is that corruption starts from ?up there,? not ?down here.? The money that filters back into our economy can't be applied in industry or whatnot because it's spending base are mostly people with low education, and from there it filters elsewhere, it can't gain any kind of purposeful momentum anywhere; it's just there, circling around.

Money made in the U.S can for sure help, but only if it is managed correctly, and we don't have that 'cuz, again, our government is run by overpriced, overzealous ?business men? morons.


Thanks for replying.

I live in Arizona, which has a large hispanic population. And there are kids who were born in the US, have lived here their entire lives. And are in middle school. That do not speak english. At all.
And then people got pissed off when they had that parade where a whole bunch of mexicans were waving mexican flags and marching around. The US doesn't do dual citizenship. If you want to be American you can't keep acting like you're a part of Mexico. That's what really pisses so many people off.
All the other ethnic groups that immigrated here way back when cheerfully shed their national ties to become American. Most of their cultures got pared down into styles of cooking and holidays. If America is a melting pot then Mexico is the pot roast that stubbornly refuses to soak up the flavor of the dish.

I agree with you that once they get there they should at least learn the language and conduct themselves in a dignified manner, but other than that, I don't see why anyone should be ?assimilated.? Having an homogeneous culture would sure be boring. How about people went to live in México and apart from learning the language and being polite, they had to shed their ?American-ness,? couldn't celebrate ther fourth of July, couldn't hang their flag outside of their home because people would think they shouldn't?

I for one wouldn't see anything wrong with you doing things belonging exclusively to your culture, as long as you never behaved in an obnoxious way, which is a something many people direct at my compatriots: they act lazy, loud, buy loud cars, and you are sure they are cursing you behind your back in another language. I don't see why why we couldn't get along by being whoever we are.

As for the fellow ?wimpy? Canadian, don't worry, it all depends on where you hang out, but yeah, there's some pretty hardcore stuff going on. Once, in my very city, cops started popping in weird places; what's the catch you ask? Cops always turn out in weird places, that's their jobs. Well...these ones were special- special as in not having their heads where they should, like, between their shoulders.

The cops were going nuts for a while. You'd actually grow scared if a police car passed you by because of the fear that some hired lunatic would pop out a rifle and blast 'em.

So, yeah...you just keep clear of scary places.


Also, I'd like to, again, thank people for replying, specially to the europeans for their somewhat skewed but always funny views(it's not your fault you live on the other side of the world).

 

[werepossum]

One big thing the USA has over Europe - you guys get a lot of Muslim immigrants who think physical labor is demeaning and that Europe should be Islamic. We get Mexicans and Central and South Americans, hard-working Christians who don't give a damn about our religion as long as there is work available AND who don't think dogs are unclean. Yeah USA!

I'm exercising great self control by not going off the handle here. I found that post incredibly offensive, and I'm not even a Muslim. Educate yourself by talking to people who actually live near Muslim areas (like myself) before making ignorant, sad statements like that.

As for Mexicans... pretty much the only thing I've heard about your culture is from American television. That's not really the best way to judge, huh?

For the record, I have nothing against Muslims. I'm just tweaking the Europeans' noses.

I've actually been around quite a few Muslims - I was in engineering school after all. Rather a lot of those were total ass-wipes, but some were good people, particularly one Iranian who was one of the nicest guys you'd ever meet. After college, all the Muslims I've known have been nice people, very religious but not militant about it (meaning religious in their own behavior rather than in the behavior of others, nothing to do with terrorism.) Muslims in the USA assimilate very well, or at least the ones I've met after college fit right in. Of course, the USA has a LOT of religions, so it's not just "us against them".

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Mexicans seem very nice, It's a tad troubling that it seems like every fast food restauranteer want to hire Mexicans for speaking over the loud speaker since it's hard enough to understand someone over it without a thick accent (this obviously applies only to recently immigrated Mexicans and not Mexicans-Americans born in America with little or no accent).

 

[Ares Tyr]

Yeah, other than being almost completely supportive of immigrants and what not, I am firmly in favor of Mexican Americans atleast speaking fluent English before being able to recieve a job in the country's work force.

 

[Shadowtek]

hmm, Mexicans, i don't think i should post here because I live in Indiana. where i live there are way too many Mexicans (and I use the term true to its name, their NOT here legally). about 40%+ of the population is Mexican. I find that sad and offensive..... that's all for now.

(I don't feel like getting banned from the web site.)

 

[Mr. Payne]

Not mutch to say there. they act like everyone else. you arent immune from the workings of the human brain. its 99% the same between people when it comes to thought processing.

 

[fulano]

hmm, Mexicans, i don't think i should post here because I live in Indiana. where i live there are way too many Mexicans (and I use the term true to its name, their NOT here legally). about 40%+ of the population is Mexican. I find that sad and offensive..... that's all for now.

(I don't feel like getting banned from the web site.)

Well, it's fine if you feel that way. I already touched on the situation as of why those people are in there. What you happen to find offensive is logical and understandable, though.