Thoughts from the Fallout76 Beta

Mad World

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TopazFusion said:
Haven't played it, but this made me groan:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2018/11/01/hackers-have-already-found-a-way-to-cheat-in-the-fallout-76-beta/

Apparently this game, just like the ones before it, caps the framerate at 60fps. You can of course unlock the framerate beyond that (using an .ini tweak), but just like the other games this causes all kinds of weird glitches and bugs with the in-game physics, (apparently a limitation of the game engine they keep using).

This was a problem in Fallout 3, New Vegas, 4, and also Skyrim. I guess Bethesda doesn't think that anyone uses monitors with more than 60Hz.

In the case of Fallout 76, this weird bug/quirk causes the players with unlocked framerates to move around the map at super speeds (probably because the 60Hz framerate is tied to the server tick rate or something, I'm guessing).

Please Bethesda (and devs in general), for the love of all that is holy, please don't tie framerate to game logic and/or game physics.
It's such an amateurish way of programming a game, and I'm amazed that the problem still exists in the AAA gaming sphere in this day and age.
When I first heard this, I wasn't even surprised. These idiots stubbornly refuse to utilize a new engine. Their Creation Engine is so out of date; yet, they persist. Wouldn't be surprised if the next Elder Scrolls game had the same issue. They refuse to accept that 144hz is very normal in this day and age.

Regardless, the game looks very, very average. It's also something that no one asked for, but it's easier to have microtransactions in online games, I guess.
 

sXeth

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Mad World said:
When I first heard this, I wasn't even surprised. These idiots stubbornly refuse to utilize a new engine. Their Creation Engine is so out of date; yet, they persist. Wouldn't be surprised if the next Elder Scrolls game had the same issue. They refuse to accept that 144hz is very normal in this day and age.

Regardless, the game looks very, very average. It's also something that no one asked for, but it's easier to have microtransactions in online games, I guess.
The Creation Engine in itself is (by their own dev talking in the noclip documentary) not even a clean new engine, there's still bits in there from Oblivion or even Morrowind (though that specific mention was part of quest scripting).

Plenty of folks have asked for (and developed mods supporting) both MP (to minimal success, because the engine literally can't handle it) and Survival based Elder Scrolls and/or Fallout though. The "OMG Mah Singleplayer" purist backlash is one of the more nonsensical ones, even moreso for Fallout which has had a much more fluid genre identity then Elder Scrolls.
 

Mad World

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Seth Carter said:
The Creation Engine in itself is (by their own dev talking in the noclip documentary) not even a clean new engine, there's still bits in there from Oblivion or even Morrowind (though that specific mention was part of quest scripting).

Plenty of folks have asked for (and developed mods supporting) both MP (to minimal success, because the engine literally can't handle it) and Survival based Elder Scrolls and/or Fallout though. The "OMG Mah Singleplayer" purist backlash is one of the more nonsensical ones, even moreso for Fallout which has had a much more fluid genre identity then Elder Scrolls.
With respect to the engine: yes - I know. That's my point.

With respect to the online Elder Scrolls and Fallout game: I've never heard it, but okay. I'm not saying that literally no one asked for it; I'm saying that generally speaking, people really want your typical singleplayer experience with respect to both Fallout and (especially) Elder Scrolls. I am aware that a good chunk of people want to be able to play the games cooperatively with a buddy, but that's different. I haven't exactly seen a significant clamoring for online Fallout.
 

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A bit more of a rosy view from the final beta session today. Not to say it was without its jank, from the daily quest outright malfunctioning and being incompletable, to continuing problems with electrical wiring rendering off into the sky (and an apparent downgrade from FO4 in terms of connector placement, making it *very* tricky to get electric working outside or on second floors), and full on getting stuck in a bit of environment (fortunately this is somewhat easy to reverse in a team, since one guy can fast travel away and back, and fast travelling actually plops you kind of randomly rather then right where the person is).


With a bit of help from soliciting the community on Reddit on the esoteric process of doin so, we got the junk scavenging outpost up and running (fortunately without the PvP baggage) and claimed a stretch of road for campsites. Oddly enough, we attracted a few neighbours, which led to bit of emergent fun in a 7 man defense of our crops from roaming super mutants that lived up the road a bit.


Although the closing period of the beta as each person logged off and their personal structures winked out of existence kind of highlighted the great flaw of this. Barring madly friend requesting folks and trying to get everyone into the same server, these sort of interactions are a fleeting experience that is tough to replicate as the next load drops you into a new bag of randoms. Certainly it avoids a common pitfall of the survival genre ("Where the F do I build", whether its PvP servers where you risk violent wrath from giant international conglomerates or just pure obsessive players, or PvE where often structures endlessly litter and blockade all but the harshest places to live), it also impairs the sense of progression and development of an unique interactive world.
 

IceForce

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Game is now live, and it has reminded me of a couple of other issues I forgot to mention before.

Carry weight, and especially CAMP capacity, is extremely low. You really cannot be a hoarder in this game. And too bad if you want to run a heavy weapons build, since the weapons AND ammo weigh an absolute ton. You may as well be carrying around anvils and pianos.
And why on earth does your CAMP even have a maximum capacity at all? Fallout 4 had settlement build budgets, sure, but you could stuff an unlimited amount of loot into your workshops (or containers in general).

Another issue I ran into is the way dying in 76 essentially entails no penalty. You only drop your junk items, and you get to keep everything else after you 'respawn'. You can even often respawn right where you died, if you happen to die at a fast travel marker.
The problem with this is that it makes the PvP aspect of the game really annoying. Someone might try to kill you, lose horribly (since they might be considerably lower level than you), but then they can immediately come back again and start shooting at you again.
... And again, and again, and again. There doesn't seem to be way of actually ending fights like that, if someone is really determined to just make a nuisance of themselves. Your only option is to fast travel away somewhere else where they can't follow you (because they don't know where you've gone).
It can make the game really annoying to play (especially if you're just trying to explore and do quests), because it allows someone to be really disruptive to your gameplay even when they're losing.
 

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Considering what I've read about the BETA and reviews of the full game, I have to wonder why they bothered with a Beta to begin with? Or why they had it so close to release?

Because it doesn't look like Bethesda seemed to learn any lessons from the Beta for the full release, which I thought was kinda the point.

I guess I also don't get why Bethesda can't stabilize their serves for an ALWAYS ONLINE GAME. You'd think that would be high on the priority list for a game that is presumably based around multiplayer and boots you out of the game if you lose connection(as opposed to a game that just prevents you from seeing/interacting with others if the connection is lost). Maybe they're afraid that if people could turn off the connection and play it offline, they would?

I'm strangely reminded of the SimCity 2013 thing where they made it always online and it was a similar fiasco.
 
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I don't this game is doing well at all. Out less than a week, I already saw it discounted in the local stores.
By every report, it's a complete shitshow, beginning with being a terrible game and ending with game breaking bugs, constant disconnections, losing progress, terrible PvP, terrible VATS.
This whole exercise was doomed to fail. I have played every Bethesda game since Morrowind, a lot, and as soon as I saw FO76, I new I wouldn't be buying it.
 

Dalisclock

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KingsGambit said:
I don't this game is doing well at all. Out less than a week, I already saw it discounted in the local stores.
By every report, it's a complete shitshow, beginning with being a terrible game and ending with game breaking bugs, constant disconnections, losing progress, terrible PvP, terrible VATS.
This whole exercise was doomed to fail. I have played every Bethesda game since Morrowind, a lot, and as soon as I saw FO76, I new I wouldn't be buying it.
Apparently its $35 on amazon. A week after launch. Yep. Not a bad sign at all.

I'm not sure it was doomed to fail but it sounds like they had no idea what they wanted to do with it and what there is is fairly sloppy in execution on top of being buggy as hell mess. Besthesda needs to spend a lot of time and effort to salvage this and it remains to be seen if they want to do is.

No Man's Sky spent the last 2 years trying to build itself into something. Wether or not that actually improves the game or makes it what people want is debatable but nobody can say they haven't been putting in some major effort to fix things.
 

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Dalisclock said:
Apparently its $35 on amazon. A week after launch. Yep. Not a bad sign at all.

I'm not sure it was doomed to fail but it sounds like they had no idea what they wanted to do with it and what there is is fairly sloppy in execution on top of being buggy as hell mess. Besthesda needs to spend a lot of time and effort to salvage this and it remains to be seen if they want to do is.

No Man's Sky spent the last 2 years trying to build itself into something. Wether or not that actually improves the game or makes it what people want is debatable but nobody can say they haven't been putting in some major effort to fix things.
In the beta's gamefiles you could find all the planned for DLC installation path folders they are planning to release (6 of them no less).

Which is also not a good sign.

What Bethesda needs to do is use an engine that isn't 21 years old. Maybe if they were forced to use something like a modified Crytek, maybe the time they take to proficiently handle it might actually make them think of a half decent narrative, thematic presentation and interesting characters. I get that Todd Howards' idea of game design is pure negation (Check the development path from Morrowind to Skyrim) ... but they have literally ixnayed story, plot and elected character mechanics.

I suppose you don't need to balance things when you just make perks partly a fucking lottery ... I ... ehhhh.

Can Bethesda just ... stop making things? Just be a publisher? That might sound childish, but hear me out. Do we really need yet another AAA developer/publisher lowering the bar by example?
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

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looks like Bethesda wanted to make the aliens colonial marines sequel.

The reviews are legitimately amazing. The game has a lower Metacritic score then FALLOUT: BROTHERHOOD OF STEEL! you know this game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDhhklxurr0
 

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tf2godz said:
looks like Bethesda wanted to make the aliens colonial marines sequel.

The reviews are legitimately amazing. The game has a lower Metacritic score then FALLOUT: BROTHERHOOD OF STEEL! you know this game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDhhklxurr0
At least Fallout Tactics had some decent multiplayer activity?

(Eds) Oh, that 'Fallout' game... Well at least has playable mechanics and reminded me of Dark Alliance which was at least addictive.
 

TopazFusion

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I watched some streams of it, and yeah, I saw some of the same complaints as in this thread.
The carry weight limitations for instance, which becomes especially problematic when quest rewards keep dumping heavy items and weapons into your inventory and over-encumbering you each and every time you complete a quest.

Also, the devs have tried to include some 'spooky' locations and environments into the game, which is normally fine in a singleplayer Fallout game. But because this is a multiplayer game, the spooky vibe and atmosphere is completely ruined by the fact that there are other players goofing off and doing silly things all around you.
 

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TopazFusion said:
I watched some streams of it, and yeah, I saw some of the same complaints as in this thread.
The carry weight limitations for instance, which becomes especially problematic when quest rewards keep dumping heavy items and weapons into your inventory and over-encumbering you each and every time you complete a quest.

Also, the devs have tried to include some 'spooky' locations and environments into the game, which is normally fine in a singleplayer Fallout game. But because this is a multiplayer game, the spooky vibe and atmosphere is completely ruined by the fact that there are other players goofing off and doing silly things all around you.
I honestly rarely run into other players in this game because the map is huge.
 

Dalisclock

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BabyfartsMcgeezaks said:
I honestly rarely run into other players in this game because the map is huge.
Suppodly the map is bigger then either Skyrim's or Fallout 4, but only 24 players per game. I get not wanting to crowd the map too much so everyone can find places to build but it sounds like it's terrible for reinforcing the idea of everyone leaving to start a new community together. I've seen numerous reviews saying they've seen like 2 or 3 other players in like 20ish hours of playtime, and not in the same hour either. Ironically, if Fallout 76 had been set in Alaska and not West Virigina it would have made more sense.

So apparently it's not the huge population overwhelming the servers.

Seriously, Bethesda, what were you thinking?
 

Kwak

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Dalisclock said:
Seriously, Bethesda, what were you thinking?
Purely this.

What is the formula for calculating profit margins? [https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/031815/what-formula-calculating-profit-margins.asp]
 

Dalisclock

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Kwak said:
Dalisclock said:
Seriously, Bethesda, what were you thinking?
Purely this.

What is the formula for calculating profit margins? [https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/031815/what-formula-calculating-profit-margins.asp]
Touche'

To that I add: "We're going to be rich!"

https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/experienced-points/10964-We-re-Going-to-Be-Rich
 
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Dalisclock said:
Apparently its $35 on amazon. A week after launch. Yep. Not a bad sign at all.

I'm not sure it was doomed to fail but it sounds like they had no idea what they wanted to do with it and what there is is fairly sloppy in execution on top of being buggy as hell mess. Besthesda needs to spend a lot of time and effort to salvage this and it remains to be seen if they want to do is.

No Man's Sky spent the last 2 years trying to build itself into something. Wether or not that actually improves the game or makes it what people want is debatable but nobody can say they haven't been putting in some major effort to fix things.
Regarding the pricing, I think they have issues with a *lot* of refunds being requested and not many sales, combining into efforts to shift units by any means (lower price, bundles).

I say doomed because of how tone-deaf the whole exercise was. If you think of all the things that made Fallouts 3, NV and 4 as enjoyable as they were, then take all of those out and replace them with things no fan wanted, except maybe the multiplayer, that's what 76 is. Always online, no modding, no NPCs, no story, no context, hours and hours of grind, etc. Then you have VATS...since it can't slow time down in a multiplayer game, all it does now is "snap" to an enemy, leaving janky combat that doesn't please action gamers or RPG players. Without NPCs, there's no personality in the world, it's just devoid of life; all it is is audiologs everywhere, by all reports.

I don't have an issue with survival elements per se, tho I don't personally find them particularly compelling. Keeping hunger/thirst meters filled isn't compelling enough by itself; it's meant to keep you engaged and immersed in the world while you play. But this game makes me think of something I said with regard to ME: Andromeda. I played ME:A originally at...v1.04 but tried it again with v1.09 and with some PC mods that made improvements, fixed bugs, made SAM STFU, etc. What I said then was that even with all the bug fixes and mods and all the glaring issues now gone, what was left was still just a dull, mediocre game I simply did not want to play. Nothing fixed the awful story, characters, voice acting, villains, gameplay loop, etc.

Even if we fast-forward today to a bug-free (Hah!) FO76, stable servers, no loss of progress, no ice skating enemies or borked AI, no bugs or glitches at all, what will be left will still be a tone-deaf, always-online, boring game I wouldn't want to play, with bad combat, crafting and survival elements and hours of grinding. Instead, I could play FO4 with mods, offline and have a better experience.

Saints Row 3-4 are great examples of what Bethesda could've done. They could've made a single-player game that supported drop-in coop. THAT is a fallout/TES game I would love to play, to share those worlds and adventures with a friend. But they're chasing "live service" money. I do believe it was doomed because even if you magicked away the bugs, unreliability and other technical flaws today, you'd still be left with a shallow game aping a years old paradigm that Rust has been doing better for years.
 
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It's like Fallout 4, but worse. More bugs + additional netcode related problems. Atleast that's the general impression i get from everything i saw.
The funniest part is, after F4, i was so burnt out on where this franchise went, i wasn't even mad. I was lukewarm towards F76, thinking, maybe it's good that it'll drop pretense of an rpg, and become just another crafty, co-op, survival, but with the benefit of Fallout world being the setting. Since mechanicly F4 was sound(shooting), the only thing they should worry about was inexperience with online games... and boy, did i underestimate them.

Well, not gonna lie, i feel small, smug satisfaction - in that, that maybe Todd and pals will learn a lesson from all of this.
I'd really think over sticking to the same engine, if i was them, though.