TLOU2 Review Thread

stroopwafel

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You're comparing apples and oranges here, one is a game making weird politically-influenced choices based on the views of the creators, the other is just games going in a certain way that has narrative concerns arise from some fans based on their subjective tastes.
Yeah but how so? I strongly dislike SJW's as well because I find them obnoxious and really dishonest but I have nothing against gays or trans people. Or any other 'minority' person for that matter. I see everyone as equal so I really don't care if it's a woman, gay, trans, black, chinese person or whatever as the lead as long as they don't make a point out of it. And it's pretty obvious now that TLoU2's leads happen to be of a certain orientation very matter-of-factly with no implication on the plot and are definitely not stand-ins for some kind kind of ideological statement so why does it matter? Hiding behind the term 'SJW' because of a thinly veiled dislike for gay people is also very dishonest.

Based on it's own merits I love everything I've seen about the game so far. I love bleak worlds and bold, creative choices.The gameplay looks great and the production values look unreal.
 

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Which is why they need to make a video everytime an "SJW" sneezes. Seriously, how many videos have these "reactionaries" made about Anita Sarkeesian, or She-Ra, or 'Get woke, go broke'? Like, hundreds?

Oh hey, guess who's already made videos about how the reviews of TLoU2 are bullshit/questionable... Gee, I wonder why they did that for TLoU2 and not for Death Stranding or the ending to FF7R, which were very controversial as well.
Because their bitches in a box stand. Claiming to know what's best for everyone, when they really could not give a shit, except for their petty wants and needs. Remember that speech from Team America? About dicks, pussies, and assholes?


A b#tch-in-a box-stand is a combination of all three things at their worst.
 
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Casual Shinji

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You're comparing apples and oranges here, one is a game making weird politically-influenced choices based on the views of the creators, the other is just games going in a certain way that has narrative concerns arise from some fans based on their subjective tastes.
Yeah, because Death Stranding wasn't political at all.

Also, what are these weird politically-influenced choices? Having gay and trans characters in an action game?

The latter is a subjective matter of opinion and reasonable people can disagree about those games being objectively objectionable or not so it's not quite as cut and dry to support a video being made about it. The key difference being that it's fine if games are being games first and not agents of progress or messengers of a political idea first. There's nothing controversial about a game just being bad in some way or having an unpopular element. That's within the boundaries of expected game content. Meanwhile lord Ania was trying to use gaming to promote feminism and make herself money and fame and was using games as a tool, a means to an end, to achieve this. All the while feigning interest in them as she did this. There's hundreds of videos worth of debunking right there haha.
And none of those "reactionaries" were making video after video about Sarkeesian with clickbaity titles and thumbnails to rake in the views and get money. No, of course not, why would they; their only purpose is to balance out the discussion.

And guess what, it's also fine if a game want to wear its politics on its sleave. Seriously, with so many game decisions being made solely based on what horny dudes will go for, why do the one or two games designed based on what's progressive and inclussive invite so much vitriol?

I do remember the quartering at least making videos about ffviii censoring Siren and Tifa's new redesign too so they're not ignoring these games completely either.
Well that certainly disproves my point.
 

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Which is why they need to make a video everytime an "SJW" sneezes. Seriously, how many videos have these "reactionaries" made about Anita Sarkeesian, or She-Ra, or 'Get woke, go broke'? Like, hundreds?
I got fed up with the Anti-trump 'news' around the time Trump was criticized for eating steak the wrong way, back in 2016. And, without exaggeration, every single day since then, Trump has been criticized in the headlines for something. I can't get away from it.

I guess now you know how it feels.
 

Casual Shinji

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I got fed up with the Anti-trump 'news' around the time Trump was criticized for eating steak the wrong way, back in 2016. And, without exaggeration, every single day since then, Trump has been criticized in the headlines for something. I can't get away from it.

I guess now you know how it feels.
Well for one, Trump himself can't really shut up either, and two, I mean, he's the frikking president of the United States; being under a giant microscope is kind of in the job description. At the time the anti-Obama news probably didn't waste any oppertunity to criticize evey tiny little thing he did, too.

Also, why is this suddenly about Trump?
 

Gyrobot

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I don't see why an embargo on the other playable character would somehow change a reviewer's opinion on a game. Sure, they can't get into specifics about it, but surely even a mediocre reviewer would express their thoughts about the other character without directly mentioning them.

Is the embargo weird? Definitely. All this leak business really has got Naughty Dog in a panic.
This is a chance to make an AAA game worthy of the art title. The fact the alt right had made an effort to drag it down shows how scared they are this game will receive the apotheosis it deserves
 
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This is a chance to make an AAA game worthy of the art title. The fact the alt right had made an effort to drag it down shows how scared they are this game will receive the apotheosis it deserves
They're not scared, they just see it as the new fat turkey to carve videos out of. Just like when the next Captain Marvel movie gets announced.

Trust me, each of these channels that thinks TLoU2 is SJW garbage not worth anyone's attention will still make at least three videos each talking about it. Not for money or anything though, noooo.
 

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And guess what, it's also fine if a game want to wear its politics on its sleave. Seriously, with so many game decisions being made solely based on what horny dudes will go for, why do the one or two games designed based on what's progressive and inclussive invite so much vitriol?
Because they are big games with big publicity budgets. Most progressive and inclusive games just fly under the general public's radar, and so they can pretend that gaming is just for horny dudes.
 

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This is a chance to make an AAA game worthy of the art title. The fact the alt right had made an effort to drag it down shows how scared they are this game will receive the apotheosis it deserves
They're not scared, they just see it as the new fat turkey to carve videos out of. Just like when the next Captain Marvel movie gets announced.

Trust me, each of these channels that thinks TLoU2 is SJW garbage not worth anyone's attention will still make at least three videos each talking about it. Not for money or anything though, noooo.
You are both right. While not all are scared, some of them are afraid of something or anything that is not the "norm". Or appeals to their straight white maleness or whatever. If they are not afraid, why bother trashing it so much or forecast its supposed failure? I am not a fan, and even I can tell the game is doing to do better than fine.
 

Gyrobot

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Because they are big games with big publicity budgets. Most progressive and inclusive games just fly under the general public's radar, and so they can pretend that gaming is just for horny dudes.
This is an important point addressed by Tony Stark in extremis where unlike the movie where he used it as an misogynistic excuse to bang and "own" a journalist. Here he gives an uncomfortable truth to Pillinger on how in spite of his documentaries being celebrated by intellectuals and journalists, he is ultimately invisible. Much like the Indies like Neofeud or Actual Sunlight. They are titles I laud for changing my toxic views on gaming but their impact is terribly limited outside their circles.
 
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You are both right. While not all are scared, some of them are afraid of something or anything that is not the "norm". Or appeals to their straight white maleness or whatever. If they are not afraid, why bother trashing it so much or forecast its supposed failure? I am not a fan, and even I can tell the game is doing to do better than fine.
They're not afraid because they themselves know there's plenty of alternatives to "SJW garbage", they just greatly enjoy the hateful circle jerk with their fans. They love getting mad it this.
 
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They're not afraid because they themselves know there's plenty of alternatives to "SJW garbage", they just greatly enjoy the hateful circle jerk with their fans. They love getting mad it this.
That is the thing though: fear, hatred, lack of understanding. The cycle feeds itself, if not to them, it's definitely to their "audience". It truly shows how pathetic, meaningless, and not much action going on in their lives. Whether it's the intended audience watching, or the people uploading these type of videos.
 
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hanselthecaretaker

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So the most vocal criticism so far comes from the sweaty gamer pundits, unable to appreciate the Schindler's List of gaming, at... Vice and Polygon?

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/wxqnxy/last-of-us-part-2-review

They basically described what Naughty Dog said the game would be; how some people might not like it and that being better than making something just to please the fans.

With all the controversy I’m more intrigued now than ever over how good or bad the whole thing is. I know their plan wasn’t to make a self-authored game full of player agency and feel-good tie-in’s to the original, which seems to be what Polygon is complaining about. So that’s kinda the most important battle checked off going into it.
 
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Dreiko

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Yeah but how so? I strongly dislike SJW's as well because I find them obnoxious and really dishonest but I have nothing against gays or trans people. Or any other 'minority' person for that matter. I see everyone as equal so I really don't care if it's a woman, gay, trans, black, chinese person or whatever as the lead as long as they don't make a point out of it. And it's pretty obvious now that TLoU2's leads happen to be of a certain orientation very matter-of-factly with no implication on the plot and are definitely not stand-ins for some kind kind of ideological statement so why does it matter? Hiding behind the term 'SJW' because of a thinly veiled dislike for gay people is also very dishonest.

Based on it's own merits I love everything I've seen about the game so far. I love bleak worlds and bold, creative choices.The gameplay looks great and the production values look unreal.
The whole issue is whether something is in the game because the devs felt it was cool or had an initial artistic desire for it to be there for reasons wholly contained within the confines of concerns about the game, it's quality, the balance of its narrative and those sort of things. If, however, an addition feels motivated by either someone's political ideas or (which is what I mostly see here) the urge to cynically pander to people with those ideas then that I see as detrimental and artistically bankrupt. If we wanna talk about this game in particular some more, the trans person you play as is apparently based on some real person but the design in the game is actually more masculine than that real trans person looks in reality because they wanted to make the game purposefully genderbender in order to not alienate less transformed trans people who don't blend in as much as the one they literally designed the char to look after. Such a roundabout way is just idiotic. It's half-assed.


So yeah, I'm with you, if someone's really thinking "wow, this element is cool, lets add it!" then I'm all for it no matter what particular element it is. If someone's just cowardly trying to offend the least amount of people with a carefully calculated "lets add a trans person...but don't make em have huge boobs and look TOO much like a woman cause someone out there might thing we're against the manlier ones!" it just feels empty and devoid of passion.


Basically, this is the neoliberal narrative of fucking you with their economic policies and accusing you of being against minority groups (who are also being fucked by the same thing) as a way of delfecting criticism every time you raise a valid point. Nobody is actually against gay characters with or without any veils. You can be against something that has gay characters for reasons wholly irrelevant to it having gay characters.
 

stroopwafel

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The whole issue is whether something is in the game because the devs felt it was cool or had an initial artistic desire for it to be there for reasons wholly contained within the confines of concerns about the game, it's quality, the balance of its narrative and those sort of things. If, however, an addition feels motivated by either someone's political ideas or (which is what I mostly see here) the urge to cynically pander to people with those ideas then that I see as detrimental and artistically bankrupt. If we wanna talk about this game in particular some more, the trans person you play as is apparently based on some real person but the design in the game is actually more masculine than that real trans person looks in reality because they wanted to make the game purposefully genderbender in order to not alienate less transformed trans people who don't blend in as much as the one they literally designed the char to look after. Such a roundabout way is just idiotic. It's half-assed.


So yeah, I'm with you, if someone's really thinking "wow, this element is cool, lets add it!" then I'm all for it no matter what particular element it is. If someone's just cowardly trying to offend the least amount of people with a carefully calculated "lets add a trans person...but don't make em have huge boobs and look TOO much like a woman cause someone out there might thing we're against the manlier ones!" it just feels empty and devoid of passion.


Basically, this is the neoliberal narrative of fucking you with their economic policies and accusing you of being against minority groups (who are also being fucked by the same thing) as a way of delfecting criticism every time you raise a valid point. Nobody is actually against gay characters with or without any veils. You can be against something that has gay characters for reasons wholly irrelevant to it having gay characters.
Seems like a lot of baseless conjecture at this point. That they try to appeal to the semi-trans audience by turning the trans character more buff doesn't even make any sense. Instead you could argue the opposite; by not making idealized representations they actually turn them into *gasp* actual people. And, as is pretty obvious in the game, with serious flaws and all.
 
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Hawki

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Wait people still care about the last of us? Is this 2014?!
Please tell me it is - I want to go back to 2014 so we have six years to prepare for how fucked up 2020 will be.

This is a chance to make an AAA game worthy of the art title.
I'd argue that all videogames are art, and that there's plenty that would qualify as "artistic." Last of Us, no matter how well written, wouldn't be the first.
 
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Dreiko

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Seems like a lot of baseless conjecture at this point. That they try to appeal to the semi-trans audience by turning the trans character more buff doesn't even make any sense. Instead you could argue the opposite; by not making idealized representations they actually turn them into *gasp* actual people. And, as is pretty obvious in the game, with serious flaws and all.
No this is something in a leak, I didn't just conjecture it into being. Why would I need to do this to come up with a reason to dislike this one random game in particular? I have a ton of things I like to busy myself gushing about lol.

The quote is this:

The characters in The Last of Us Part II are designed in such a way to not make trans people feel uncomfortable. Every single new character introduced in the sequel does not have definitive feminine or masculine qualities.
Ellie and Dina, specifically, have been remodelled to look less feminine. It even seems as if they Ellie has completely changed since they first revealed her in The Last of Us Part II.
And then you have Troy Baker (Joel VA) saying the leak is definitely from an employee. So there you go.

Here's the full article btw.

 
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Kwak

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Wait people still care about the last of us? Is this 2014?!
No, they've just released a sequel to that game.
Did you say the same for Doom Eternal? "Like, what is this, 1993?' Or Star Wars? "Like, what is this, 1977?"
People are excited for things that are continuations of things they previously enjoyed. Weird, but true.
 

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The whole issue is whether something is in the game because the devs felt it was cool or had an initial artistic desire for it to be there for reasons wholly contained within the confines of concerns about the game, it's quality, the balance of its narrative and those sort of things. If, however, an addition feels motivated by either someone's political ideas or (which is what I mostly see here) the urge to cynically pander to people with those ideas then that I see as detrimental and artistically bankrupt. If we wanna talk about this game in particular some more, the trans person you play as is apparently based on some real person but the design in the game is actually more masculine than that real trans person looks in reality because they wanted to make the game purposefully genderbender in order to not alienate less transformed trans people who don't blend in as much as the one they literally designed the char to look after. Such a roundabout way is just idiotic. It's half-assed.

So yeah, I'm with you, if someone's really thinking "wow, this element is cool, lets add it!" then I'm all for it no matter what particular element it is. If someone's just cowardly trying to offend the least amount of people with a carefully calculated "lets add a trans person...but don't make em have huge boobs and look TOO much like a woman cause someone out there might thing we're against the manlier ones!" it just feels empty and devoid of passion.

Basically, this is the neoliberal narrative of fucking you with their economic policies and accusing you of being against minority groups (who are also being fucked by the same thing) as a way of delfecting criticism every time you raise a valid point. Nobody is actually against gay characters with or without any veils. You can be against something that has gay characters for reasons wholly irrelevant to it having gay characters.
That's an awful lot to be worried about when probably just about everything with financial backing is made to pander to some group or offend the least amount of people. You think the vast majority of video game protagonists were straight white guys with short hair because that just so happened to be what every developer wanted their protagonist to be? Why do you think the gameplay of TLOU is 3rd-person shooter/stealth game? Because that's what sells. Even in a perfect world where the publisher lets the developer make whatever and the devs go into the project without any agenda, unconsciously people on the dev team will lean towards certain characters or politics or whatever. Like if the main character artist is LGBTQ, they'll probably tend to make more characters from that community. Or if the writer is left-leaning or right-leaning politically, those views will most likely manifest themselves regardless of intent. Also, you can have the most artistically pure dev team that makes a game with shit characters and a shit story while a dev team with an agenda makes a game with great characters and story. If something looks interesting; play the game, watch the movie/TV show, listen to the music, read the book, and it'll either work for you or not. Lastly, going into something with a predetermined mindset also skews the piece for you as well.