TLOU2 Review Thread

Dreiko

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Sex selling isn't an argument, a hypothesis, a debate. It's a marketing reality that professionals have arrived to when trying to maximize profit. Trying to deny it is like trying to claim stem cell research is bad despite it showing promising results, simply because it conflicts with your religion and makes you feel icky.

Same thing here, you may not like its societal or feminist-related implications, but a business is in this to make money and a game maker is in it to make art so neither has to care about those issues and trying to juxtapose those onto art or business is to put ideology over utility and limit human expression. It isn't something the wider population, the people outside of your religion, ought give a damn about. Pretending people should care about such issues is insanely entitled, as well.

Japan markets sex in the same way out of a traditionalist tendency in their hierarchy to do what works and just refine it. If you wanna change that, establish a history of fugly manchicks selling random products to people with greater success for decades like how the people who sell stuff with hot chicks have done.
 
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hanselthecaretaker

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And no, I equate attractiveness to attractiveness, seeing as just a few posts ago I said the women in TLoU2 are clearly attractive, but not sexualized. And I said this in response to claims that Naughty Dog deliberately made their female characters ugly. Because apparently not being sexy means being ugly. Or that making their female characters look "drab" somehow proves Naughty Dog is guilty of... something.
Some synonyms for “Drab“: dismal, cheerless, gloomy, sombre.

It has nothing to do with “ugly”, and was probably not the best adjective to describe downplaying female sexual characteristics on my part, but that’s what appeared to be the case both in game and based on past comments the studio made.
 

Gethsemani

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Sex selling isn't an argument, a hypothesis, a debate. It's a marketing reality that professionals have arrived to when trying to maximize profit. Trying to deny it is like trying to claim stem cell research is bad despite it showing promising results, simply because it conflicts with your religion and makes you feel icky.
Not even by a long shot. That sex sells is true, it is also true that sex doesn't sell as much as it used to and continues to sell less and less. The reason you see less and less ads selling stuff by posing a hot, scantily clad woman near said stuff is because it doesn't work as well anymore. This is largely attributed to societal trends that finds putting women with little clothes in places where they really don't serve a purpose (be it pit babes, ring babes, hooters or selling TCP/IP cables with a girl in a bikini) as distasteful and demeaning. Unlike stem cells, sociological trends can rapidly change and what was true in the 50's, 70's, 90's or even 10's isn't necessarily true today, because people and societies change.

In the end, sex selling is about knowing your market. Market a beer to guys in the Deep South by having some hot blond do a wet t-shirt with it. Sell the same beer to a hipster in San Francisco by talking about the novel way of processing the malt and showing pictures of nerdy, bearded guys caressing a bottle like it was the Hope Diamond. So sex sells, but in the current market there are much better ways to sell your products if you want to reach a broad consumer base. If you absolutely want to home in on the regressive core gamers sex definitely sells, but you risk alienating a large portion of the market in doing so. And sure, the Japanese are more open to sexualization then Western markets are, but Japan is also a market all on its own and not very pertinent to a discussion about Western markets, in the same way that Russia or Africa ain't.
 

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If you absolutely want to home in on the regressive core gamers sex definitely sells, but you risk alienating a large portion of the market in doing so.
I don't think that "large portion of the market" actually exists. I mean, the people that will go on twitter and #cancel a company for 'promoting unrealistic beauty standards in women' or whatever certainly exist. But they're not part of the market. If you censor and butcher your creative work to appease them, they still won't buy your product. They're not interested in enjoying the product and they never were, they just want to make it so that the "regressive core gamers" can't enjoy it. It's just another political battleground.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Here's what a female Olympic weightlifter looks like:

1597469831794.png

1597469869559.png

These women are literally supposed to be the peak of natural human weightlifter performance.

They are buff, but they are less buff flexing than Abby is at rest.
 

Dreiko

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Not even by a long shot. That sex sells is true, it is also true that sex doesn't sell as much as it used to and continues to sell less and less. The reason you see less and less ads selling stuff by posing a hot, scantily clad woman near said stuff is because it doesn't work as well anymore. This is largely attributed to societal trends that finds putting women with little clothes in places where they really don't serve a purpose (be it pit babes, ring babes, hooters or selling TCP/IP cables with a girl in a bikini) as distasteful and demeaning. Unlike stem cells, sociological trends can rapidly change and what was true in the 50's, 70's, 90's or even 10's isn't necessarily true today, because people and societies change.

In the end, sex selling is about knowing your market. Market a beer to guys in the Deep South by having some hot blond do a wet t-shirt with it. Sell the same beer to a hipster in San Francisco by talking about the novel way of processing the malt and showing pictures of nerdy, bearded guys caressing a bottle like it was the Hope Diamond. So sex sells, but in the current market there are much better ways to sell your products if you want to reach a broad consumer base. If you absolutely want to home in on the regressive core gamers sex definitely sells, but you risk alienating a large portion of the market in doing so. And sure, the Japanese are more open to sexualization then Western markets are, but Japan is also a market all on its own and not very pertinent to a discussion about Western markets, in the same way that Russia or Africa ain't.

That's not sex selling less than it did, that's just other groups to whom sex always sold as much as it does now (not very much) gaining more buying power and influencing people in their orbit to deny their natural tendencies to score virtue points with them, which shifts how much profit is made without affecting the absolute value of how much sex sells.

What you're saying is that meat is out of favor because now there's a lot more vegans. No, vegans are just a separate factor, it doesn't make sense to group them together with meat eaters. I assure you, people, even vegans, still very much like bacon. The few actual ideologues who think veganism is some kind of way of life and a form of being a good person aren't all that numerous.



Why do you think you need to teach people to have certain attitudes towards sex but not others? Why do you think you need to teach people to not have certain ones?

That can only happen when they naturally do have them. I'm pretty sure nobody had to take diversity classes to learn to like the thin curvy blond chick with the pretty smile and spotless skin.


Oh and in San Fransisco sex sells just as much, it would just have to be gay or trans or something. You can't as easily sell regular sex where the male and the female identified as such since birth and like each-other and are fit and hot but if you have some chubby agender entity with weird piercings being sexual that'd be celebrated and called progressive and not demeaning to it at all.

(btw, we were talking about Japan here, about the Yakuza guy's comment in particular)
 

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Some synonyms for “Drab“: dismal, cheerless, gloomy, sombre.

It has nothing to do with “ugly”, and was probably not the best adjective to describe downplaying female sexual characteristics on my part, but that’s what appeared to be the case both in game and based on past comments the studio made.
Yeah, but that's the entire TLoU2 world; dismal, cheerless, gloomy, and sombre. And it's actually one of the points of contention I have toward the game compared to the original. But every character and all scenery falls under that dreary discription, yet only the female characters are pointed to and criticized for not looking right and looking intentionally drab.
Here's what a female Olympic weightlifter looks like:


These women are literally supposed to be the peak of natural human weightlifter performance.

They are buff, but they are less buff flexing than Abby is at rest.
I don't think there's a precise size to female weightlifters; some are going to be bigger than others. I've seen gymnists that were build like a wall, while others were lithe as a cat. And honestly, Abby isn't even that big, she just looks square which makes her look bigger than she actually is. We're also not there yet with game animation to make muscles and fat properly inflate and deflate while a character moves, so characters with a larger/wider physique can look a bit weirder than characters who aren't.
 

Gethsemani

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That's not sex selling less than it did, that's just other groups to whom sex always sold as much as it does now (not very much) gaining more buying power and influencing people in their orbit to deny their natural tendencies to score virtue points with them, which shifts how much profit is made without affecting the absolute value of how much sex sells.
You seem to operate under the misconception that some things in society are immutable, this is pretty certainly false. Ideas, attitudes and ideologies change all the time and marketing must account for this. That's why you didn't see a single "we want to preserve nature" ad for any company in the 50's but saw a lot of women with skirts riding up, garters showing or bras popping out of blouses no matter what was being sold (but more so when it was sold to men) but the reserve is rapidly becoming the norm today.

Sex used to be a big thing (and still is in some places, especially in fly-over America) because it was so very strictly regulated by societal norms: You got married and you had sex with your spouse. If your spouse was less then attractive or wasn't that much into freaky sex or whatever the problem, your only recourse was to dream about fucking the secretary or the bagging boy at the grocery store. Today? Not so much. Sex is easily available everywhere, particularly on the internet. While today's youth are less sensitive about sex in marriage only and more open to casual partners and non-traditional sexual relations (one night stands, casual hook ups, non-hetero normative relations etc.), they also have less sex and show less interest for sex overall. So sex is definitely not selling as much as it used to, because interest in sex overall is declining.

Why do you think you need to teach people to have certain attitudes towards sex but not others? Why do you think you need to teach people to not have certain ones?
This is cute, because I've never said anything about this. This is all you inferring stuff about me.

Oh and in San Fransisco sex sells just as much, it would just have to be gay or trans or something. You can't as easily sell regular sex where the male and the female identified as such since birth and like each-other and are fit and hot but if you have some chubby agender entity with weird piercings being sexual that'd be celebrated and called progressive and not demeaning to it at all.
And here you sort of seem to understand the idea of appealing to specific demographics, but in the most offensive, caricature way possible.
 

Gethsemani

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Here's what a female Olympic weightlifter looks like:

These women are literally supposed to be the peak of natural human weightlifter performance.

They are buff, but they are less buff flexing than Abby is at rest.
Weight class does a whole lot for how weightlifters look, when you go into heavy weight you tend to see a lot more people with lots of body fat and much more muscles. Also, there's a very distinct difference between weightlifters and body builders, the latter tends to focus a lot more on developing visible musculature, the former on developing the physique needed to lift massive amounts over their head for a short time. Compared to high level female bodybuilders, Abby looks very, very normative. For someone doing a lot of all round training, you'll end up far closer to a body builder in look (though not as extreme) then you would a weightlifter..
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Weight class does a whole lot for how weightlifters look, when you go into heavy weight you tend to see a lot more people with lots of body fat and much more muscles. Also, there's a very distinct difference between weightlifters and body builders, the latter tends to focus a lot more on developing visible musculature, the former on developing the physique needed to lift massive amounts over their head for a short time. Compared to high level female bodybuilders, Abby looks very, very normative. For someone doing a lot of all round training, you'll end up far closer to a body builder in look (though not as extreme) then you would a weightlifter..
And body building is rife with steroid use and abuse.
 

stroopwafel

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they also have less sex and show less interest for sex overall. So sex is definitely not selling as much as it used to, because interest in sex overall is declining.
I don't think that is a decline in interest but rather that for many men it is just much harder to obtain. The more advanced and prosperous the country the more demands on partner choice criteria will increase. That is kind of the general rule as emancipation and social changes are all secondary to this. The survival of the species depends on men's sex drives, so men wanting sex will absolutely never change. But ofcourse the times and circumstances do. It is no surprise the porn consumption is so high. But I think you're totally right that the internet has made the 'sex sells' argument in regular media rather obsolete. I personally don't believe in 'hook-up culture' that much. Every metric shows that is only a really tiny percentage. Dating apps in particular are total sausage fests that only work for a fraction of men and very few women want sex with random strangers. I think the sad reality is that rich countries in particular just have a really high amount of sad, lonely wankers. xD
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Here's what a female Olympic weightlifter looks like:


These women are literally supposed to be the peak of natural human weightlifter performance.

They are buff, but they are less buff flexing than Abby is at rest.
Bullshit
Abby
6B0D0BA1-E154-484F-B892-87ABD0E3884A.png
vs Stock Photo of Fit Swimmer
A9CE915C-0866-4418-BF71-4DC32622BCD4.jpeg
Abby's a *little* bit thicker, but she's not exactly she-hulk
 

Jarrito3002

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Bullshit
Abby
View attachment 514
vs Stock Photo of Fit Swimmer
View attachment 515
Abby's a *little* bit thicker, but she's not exactly she-hulk
I though I am losing my mind here. I was in the camp thinking damn this must be some incredible Hulk chick with the way comments were going then I saw the charcter and was like this is what the hubba aloo was about.

Like I look at Abby and I do not see roided out anything. She is not that fucking large what in the hell. I am sorry the people going in on this design are kind being ridiculous. Like Abby arms seems about same as the weightlifters.

I am planting my flag Abby does not seem that outrageous of a design and think the people complaining are so use the female characters designs being so attractive its taken to 11 as default it is taking a pretty skewed view.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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I though I am losing my mind here. I was in the camp thinking damn this must be some incredible Hulk chick with the way comments were going then I saw the charcter and was like this is what the hubba aloo was about.

Like I look at Abby and I do not see roided out anything. She is not that fucking large what in the hell. I am sorry the people going in on this design are kind being ridiculous. Like Abby arms seems about same as the weightlifters.

I am planting my flag Abby does not seem that outrageous of a design and think the people complaining are so use the female characters designs being so attractive its taken to 11 as default it is taking a pretty skewed view.
Yup, definitely not She-hulk huh:

1597513825581.png

1597513930162.png

Her arms are bigger than her head.
 

Gyrobot

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I don't think that is a decline in interest but rather that for many men it is just much harder to obtain. The more advanced and prosperous the country the more demands on partner choice criteria will increase. That is kind of the general rule as emancipation and social changes are all secondary to this. The survival of the species depends on men's sex drives, so men wanting sex will absolutely never change. But ofcourse the times and circumstances do. It is no surprise the porn consumption is so high. But I think you're totally right that the internet has made the 'sex sells' argument in regular media rather obsolete. I personally don't believe in 'hook-up culture' that much. Every metric shows that is only a really tiny percentage. Dating apps in particular are total sausage fests that only work for a fraction of men and very few women want sex with random strangers. I think the sad reality is that rich countries in particular just have a really high amount of sad, lonely wankers. xD
Maybe it's a cue to to go outta the closet like society intended. Love is Love after all.
 

Gethsemani

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I don't think that is a decline in interest but rather that for many men it is just much harder to obtain.
I could sort of accept this idea, if it wasn't for the clear trend of declining interest in both genders. Young women today are not as promiscuous as they were 10 years ago and rank sex lower as an enjoyable activity as well as something they want to have. Men are showing similar numbers. It is not just about sad, lonely men turning to porn and wanking it out, but rather a generation wide trend of not finding sex all that exciting or important.

Besides, we should also keep in mind that the number of men (or women for that matter) that lack a partner hasn't shot through the roof in the last generation. In fact, the trends in the Western world are for slightly more people to find a partner. What's changed is that all the lonely men that previously found a hobby to get invested in (model trains, stamp collecting etc.) are now able to find like-minded, frustrated men online to revel in their misery. The numbers are similar, but they are more vocal today. I still find it interesting that we don't hear much about all the women who can't find a steady partner, even though they face similar problems to the incels.
 

stroopwafel

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I could sort of accept this idea, if it wasn't for the clear trend of declining interest in both genders. Young women today are not as promiscuous as they were 10 years ago and rank sex lower as an enjoyable activity as well as something they want to have. Men are showing similar numbers. It is not just about sad, lonely men turning to porn and wanking it out, but rather a generation wide trend of not finding sex all that exciting or important.

Besides, we should also keep in mind that the number of men (or women for that matter) that lack a partner hasn't shot through the roof in the last generation. In fact, the trends in the Western world are for slightly more people to find a partner. What's changed is that all the lonely men that previously found a hobby to get invested in (model trains, stamp collecting etc.) are now able to find like-minded, frustrated men online to revel in their misery. The numbers are similar, but they are more vocal today. I still find it interesting that we don't hear much about all the women who can't find a steady partner, even though they face similar problems to the incels.
Statistics show people that lack a partner has definitely increased by rather drastic amounts.

And it's not just romantic partners but also people report having few(if any) friends or people to turn to during a crisis. Over 60% of people under 35 are unpartnered as reported in the 2017 Pew research. Now I don't believe for a second that for many(if not the majority) that is voluntary. Hormones aren't suddenly switched off. More people of 60+ are having sex than people in the prime of their lives. That is all kinds of weird if you ask me.

As for incels, yeah ofcourse you will always have depressed nutters who will implode on the internet. Similarly as you have people losing their shit over political issues that are used as a proxy for their personal frustrations and failure. But it's not the majority. The majority will not inflict on themselves a social death sentence by calling themselves 'incel'. They will say some bs like ''yeah I'm focusing on this or that right now and I don't have the time and need to go on my millionth vacation'' to keep up appearences even if it's apparent it's not really honest. You are totally right that incels are the vocal minority but you know, with anything, the majority suffers in silence.
 
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Gethsemani

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Statistics show people that lack a partner has definitely increased by rather drastic amounts.

And it's not just romantic partners but also people report having few(if any) friends or people to turn to during a crisis. Over 60% of people under 35 are unpartnered as reported in the 2017 Pew research. Now I don't believe for a second that for many(if not the majority) that is voluntary. Hormones aren't suddenly switched off. More people of 60+ are having sex than people in the prime of their lives. That is all kinds of weird if you ask me.
Point taken. These statistics are obviously different between Europe and the US.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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I don't think that is a decline in interest but rather that for many men it is just much harder to obtain. The more advanced and prosperous the country the more demands on partner choice criteria will increase. That is kind of the general rule as emancipation and social changes are all secondary to this. The survival of the species depends on men's sex drives, so men wanting sex will absolutely never change. But ofcourse the times and circumstances do. It is no surprise the porn consumption is so high. But I think you're totally right that the internet has made the 'sex sells' argument in regular media rather obsolete. I personally don't believe in 'hook-up culture' that much. Every metric shows that is only a really tiny percentage. Dating apps in particular are total sausage fests that only work for a fraction of men and very few women want sex with random strangers. I think the sad reality is that rich countries in particular just have a really high amount of sad, lonely wankers. xD
The information age has also brought the age of excess, ad nauseum, market saturation, etc. and we are now starting to see signs of apathy as a result. All but the biggest morons have seen it all before at this point, so our consumerist appetites are just yawning in wait for the next big thing to surprise us. Someone will find it and it’ll make a lot of money for other people, including themselves if they’re smart about it.

But yeah, they’ll have to work around current social norms that have developed *somewhat* naturally over time as a result of the above.
 
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