TLOU2 Review Thread

Specter Von Baren

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Not even by a long shot. That sex sells is true, it is also true that sex doesn't sell as much as it used to and continues to sell less and less. The reason you see less and less ads selling stuff by posing a hot, scantily clad woman near said stuff is because it doesn't work as well anymore.
No. It's because doing so gets them lynched by the neo-victorians.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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It's less "the neo-puritans" and more "I see more exciting titillation on the banner adds of the pirate site everybody uses because streaming services have turned into the new cable"

Advertising runs on novelty. Trying to sell cheeseburgers with scantily clad swimsuit models just didn't work.
 
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Jarrito3002

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No. It's because doing so gets them lynched by the neo-victorians.
No some of us just find the sex selling way too try hard and eye rolling. Like I saw an advirtisement on the road for a fancy watch that looked marvelous beautiful and for some reason it was juxaposed to these two woman making a pseudo lesbian kiss it took me out from admiring the watch.

I find some sex selling ads annoying and unnecessary out of my own volition not because "neo victorians" or" neo puritans" or anything you want to put neo infront of to make it sound more scary are waiting in the bushes to waggle their finger at me at best.


It's less "the neo-puritans" and more "I see more exciting titillation on the banner adds of the pirate site everybody uses because streaming services have turned into the new cable"

Advertising runs on novelty. Trying to sell cheeseburgers with scantily clad swimsuit models just didn't work.
Didn't Hardees do that and did a whole ad campaign to say yeah thats was stupid lets run that back.

 

Specter Von Baren

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No some of us just find the sex selling way too try hard and eye rolling. Like I saw an advirtisement on the road for a fancy watch that looked marvelous beautiful and for some reason it was juxaposed to these two woman making a pseudo lesbian kiss it took me out from admiring the watch.

I find some sex selling ads annoying and unnecessary out of my own volition not because "neo victorians" or" neo puritans" or anything you want to put neo infront of to make it sound more scary are waiting in the bushes to waggle their finger at me at best.
I suppose it depends on what we mean by sex selling. I too find try hard sexualization more off putting than enticing but there's degrees at which one can do this and when it is appropriate. A woman just playing with her hair can drive a guy crazy, going hard with the sex appeal is going overboard, a more gentle approach with these things yields greater rewards.
 

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You seem to operate under the misconception that some things in society are immutable, this is pretty certainly false. Ideas, attitudes and ideologies change all the time and marketing must account for this. That's why you didn't see a single "we want to preserve nature" ad for any company in the 50's but saw a lot of women with skirts riding up, garters showing or bras popping out of blouses no matter what was being sold (but more so when it was sold to men) but the reserve is rapidly becoming the norm today.

Sex used to be a big thing (and still is in some places, especially in fly-over America) because it was so very strictly regulated by societal norms: You got married and you had sex with your spouse. If your spouse was less then attractive or wasn't that much into freaky sex or whatever the problem, your only recourse was to dream about fucking the secretary or the bagging boy at the grocery store. Today? Not so much. Sex is easily available everywhere, particularly on the internet. While today's youth are less sensitive about sex in marriage only and more open to casual partners and non-traditional sexual relations (one night stands, casual hook ups, non-hetero normative relations etc.), they also have less sex and show less interest for sex overall. So sex is definitely not selling as much as it used to, because interest in sex overall is declining.



This is cute, because I've never said anything about this. This is all you inferring stuff about me.



And here you sort of seem to understand the idea of appealing to specific demographics, but in the most offensive, caricature way possible.
Some things are immutable and others aren't. The particular fetish that is societally accepted to advertise with is a cultural thing so the low tier voyer stuff with Merlyn holding down her dress that's being blown up by a fan and whatnot, sure, that sorta thing can change.

What's immutable is that we have evolved to find young, thin, pretty women attractive. If you're young you're more likely to successfully produce offspring, if you're pretty that signifies that you have good genes which will be inherited by the kids so that is preferred (and while there is an aspect of fetishizing what is and isn't pretty like with the dress blower there is also timeless beauty, which is the thing I refer to here) and being thin, especially back in the day, was a sign of availability because the only non-thin women back in the age of scarcity were the pregnant ones, who were not sought after for having kids.


I find it incredibly confusing how you seem to think interest in sex is somehow supposed to be analogous to how much sex you actually have. There is no connection here. We just have a society of household fappers in our (and I guess their) hands, there's tons of interest, what there's no interest in is other people, stds, getting drugged and raped, having kids, those things. If you look at any of the internet sites you mention you will see sexual expression in the form of the views that these sites get. Rule 34 is a prime example, if there can be porn of the Smurfs out there, I'm pretty sure most any subject your regular housewife in the 50s where people used to have more sex could imagine would be covered by just 5% of what people are into today.



And it's good to hear it was my mistaken inference to suggest that you supported teaching men not to rape and other sort of education programs in the ways of gender behaviors from a certain ideology and what have you. My apologies.
 

BrawlMan

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Interesting take on it -



Acknowledging it isn’t perfect of course but also that the same could be said about the original. Also seems to explain what I think this tweet could’ve really meant.
Interesting title. though I do not consider this game a masterpiece. I never hated it to begin with, but I sure as hell didn't care for it either. at least one of these YouTube users had some self-reflection. Thanks for the vid.
 

Gyrobot

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Interesting title. though I do not consider this game a masterpiece. I never hated it to begin with, but I sure as hell didn't care for it either. at least one of these YouTube users had some self-reflection. Thanks for the vid.
Well always a good thing because they were the ones who gave the Chuds a voice in expressing their hate for "woke" games.
 

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Well always a good thing because they were the ones who gave the Chuds a voice in expressing their hate for "woke" games.
They have reserves. Him changing his mind does not exactly stop them. They can still latch on to others or do things themselves. Also, the whole CHUDS insults does not really work for me. I just keep thinking about that movie. More entertaining and valuavle than the shit show that went on this game and the people acting like its WWIII. At the end of the day, people like them are assholes. Same applies to how Naughty Dog & Sony acted by silencing those with opinions. Regardless if they were spoilers, positive about the game, or not. Not protecting their voice actor(s) from death threats nor calling out that type of shitty behavior. And just so I am clear with everyone, I am never buying any of ND's games ever again. Due to how they're acting, treating their employees like shit, and the sexual harassment. Sony, nor Naughty Dogs are the heroes they claim to be. They ain't the good guys either.

https://www.businessinsider.com/sony-playstation-naughty-dog-sexual-harassment-2017-10

 
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hanselthecaretaker

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They have reserves. Him changing his mind does not exactly stop them. They can still latch on to others or do things themselves. Also, the whole CHUDS insults does not really work for me. I just keep thinking about that movie. More entertaining and valuavle than the shit show that went on this game and the people acting like its WWIII. At the end of the day, people like them are assholes. Same applies to how Naughty Dog & Sony acted by silencing those with opinions. Regardless if they were spoilers, positive about the game, or not. Not protecting their voice actor(s) from death threats nor calling out that type of shitty behavior. And just so I am clear with everyone, I am not never buying any of ND's games ever again. Due to how they're acting, treating their employees like shit, and the sexual harassment. Sony, nor Naughty Dogs are the heroes they claim to be. They ain't the good guys either.

https://www.businessinsider.com/sony-playstation-naughty-dog-sexual-harassment-2017-10

I always wonder what they’re supposed to do about death threats though; make a cheap legal statement like the sexual harassment one? Naughty Dog already had done that, for whatever it’s worth (not much). Maybe they could offer police protection, but seemingly everyone hates cops these days so that might be bad publicity getting them involved.

The harassment claim makes me wonder, like the Rocksteady one or any number of claims before it. All they say is, “I was sexually harassed.” without any context. How about how they were actually harassed, by whom and for how long for starters? Otherwise the general reception is basically, what are we supposed to do with that ambiguous claim. The plot thickens with the $20k “payoff”, but forces us to guess what it actually entailed. Naughty Dog is probably one of the most diverse studios out there so for one person to be harassed makes me wonder what happened, especially being such an isolated case. What made it “personal” enough to single out just him?

No context. Without it, I can’t garner much sympathy because I don’t even know what I’m supposed to feel sorry for. Anyone can vaguely claim something happened to them, but it’s like if Sports Center just went on to say, “(insert sports team) lost last night.” Then nothing. No who, what, when, where, how, why to get people to bother caring.

Nobody is on top of this kind of shit more than Mr. Schreier at Kotaku, and this is all he could really say about it.

When someone makes a bold statement but then declines multiple attempts to share actual details, it kinda makes their claim ring hollow. Naughty Dog and many other studios are known to be high pressure work environments, so with nothing else to go by were forced to assume something like he possibly buckled to the pressure where it was affecting his work, and someone probably made an offhand comment about it with sexual overtones that could be considered offensive. Not right, but whatever it was I wonder why it’s so difficult to say it. Clearly it would look worse on the accuser than the victim, so what’s holding him back? He already let the cat out of the bag anyways.

The fact he worked at ND for five years without incident, went to Ubisoft for a while, then came back to ND is interesting. Also that that’s when the problems started, but that the harassment wasn’t of a “sexual” nature then. Maybe he had an especially fragile disposition and didn’t know how to take some mild jabs about “grass being greener” or something, who knows. I suppose we have to speak very delicately. If that’s true then I sure hope this is the case in public schools these days, because actual children are the ones most affected by “words”. But on the other hand, greater emotional resilience can be developed by experiencing verbal dissonance early on and lead to knowing how to handle it later in life. These kinds of things are what should be taught in school vs trying to control what people say, because that’s completely unrealistic and leaves adolescents thoroughly unprepared for harsh real world realities. I highly doubt we’ll ever be able to completely sanitize life while we’re still stuck being merely human.

The part about the me-too movement emboldening him to speak out sounds typical. I always wonder what makes “now” any different than “then” about being able to speak out though. These people wait years, sometimes decades when the end result is the same, so why go through that prolonged period of pain and suffering if it was really that bad? The vast majority had long since moved on from those environments and are free from any non-disclosure bs.
 
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hanselthecaretaker

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^^^What the hell, I’ll share a personal story to reinforce my thoughts on the above:

Back when I was maybe eleven or twelve my parents thought I should get involved in something that would encourage good personal development. My mother did 4-H as a youth so that’s what it ended up being. The problem was that not unlike the Catholic Church, many of these types of places (Boy Scouts being another example) are well known now for preying on young innocents in an especially perverse manner. Perhaps not so much back in the early nineties. Anyways, one of the group leaders I was assigned could be described now as a typically unkept looking older man in his late fifties. I’ll call him Clarence here, because well, that was his name and I don’t give two shits. Overweight, graying and receding hairline, thicker glasses, wardrobe stuck in the 70’s in the worst way, etc. Wasn’t exactly uncommon but whatever. At my age I didn’t think much of it. He was also a bit of a local historian, which I found more interesting than anything 4-H seemed to offer.

So my experience in this organization began with toy rocket building. I still remember him being quite fond of the Big Bertha model, but I ultimately went with the Silver Streak, IIRC. I put together my rocket with a little help from dad, and lit it off in the back yard to some delight. Didn’t go as high as I’d have liked, but it was still pretty cool nonetheless. We later lit them off as a group with other kids at some Rec. center. Clarence was a pretty jovial sounding guy, I’ll give him that. It probably helped his cause.

That kind of thing went on for a while with other trivial projects. I think we built a birdhouse or something for example, but things got particularly interesting when he proposed the idea of going on a camping trip. It would be an overnight thing, and we’d have another kid (I don’t recall his name) tagging along. Actually I was probably the third wheel as it sounded like this kid and him had a far longer history; I think he lived just down the road from him. Anyways, one Saturday morning my mom brings me to Clarence’s house to drop me off, and I meet the other kid right before we head out. He seemed very...well, the opposite of Clarence’s joviality. He might’ve been a year older so not unusual for that age. I say goodbye to my mom and we venture off in his ugly ass hatchback, also from the 70’s like his wardrobe.

We get to our camping spot and build a lean-to. Yeah it was 4-H so we’re roughing it. Then he tells us to go off and look for some firewood. The kid is very quiet and reserved, but so was I to an extent. We did manage some conversation and he tells me more about what he’s done in the 4-H group, how he knows Clarence, etc. It wasn’t until later that evening when things took a peculiar turn.

Clarence thought that since we were both scouring the deep woods for firewood that he should do a “tick check”. This is something I wasn’t unfamiliar with since I was no stranger to the outdoors, but the way he did it caused me some consternation. He started with the other kid who had his back turned to me, and it looked like he was fondling the kid’s twig and berries because well, he was. Then it was my turn. In that moment I didn’t think of how his hands were obviously not sanitary by this point, but looking back, gross. He’s looking over my barely-pubescent junk like someone handling a model car. I remember thinking this seemed different than the junior high school sports physicals they used to give with boys lined up for hernia checks. Those felt like the doctors just doing their job. This felt like a violation of privacy. This felt wrong. That was an odd night and made for an odd night sleep, especially considering the sleeping conditions.

The next morning, we leave the camp site and go to some local landmarks, including an old church. Then we wrap up by actually going to another church for actual mass. Because of course the hypocrite pervert is also religious. Finally he drops me off at home and I probably said thanks for...everything? Minus the obvious.

Now for the important part. I don’t recall if it was that night or later that week one evening, but I called both of my parents into my room and explained in sufficient detail what that fucker did to us. Needless to say they were off put in a “that shit doesn’t fly with us” kind of way. So a few days later I was outside shooting hoops with my dad, and good old Clarence stops by with an idea for another camping trip. My dad told me to wait by the house and walked him back to his car. I don't know what he said and I don’t really care to know, but I never saw him again. Well, technically I did a few years later but it was a random occurrence on my paper route. He was just leaving the house of a family of three boys I knew from school. He said “Hi!” in his jovial stupid voice, but I ignored him.

It might’ve been around that same time that we had a new priest in our church. I grew up catholic so it was a regular thing. I also never had a problem with priests and they all seemed very genuine, except for this new guy. Not only was he very old, but he had that same glassy, fucked up look in his eyes that Clarence did. Not because he also wore glasses, but the actual eyes behind them just seemed “off”. He pulled me aside after mass one Sunday and did the small talk shit old men usually reserve for boys, and asked me what I thought about being an alter boy. I probably said something about not being sure, but he was persistent with it every week. I’m glad my folks didn’t seem to care or push for the idea, because I don’t want to know what might’ve happened there. Thankfully he didn’t last there long, and was replaced by a good one again, from India IIRC.

I wonder sometimes if I didn’t have the experience I did with Clarence earlier if I would've sensed danger with that priest. Years later working a summer job, one of the full-time guys on the yard clean up crew I was in brought up a recent local scandal involving a pedophile that happened to be one of my school friend’s step dad. His step brother, who was a prized athlete, good looking, seemingly everything going for him, was ready to kill himself before finally spilling what he’d done to him and a large number of other boys, videotaped and all. Thankfully he got prison justice not long after being sentenced to life. Anyways, back to the summer job, the full-timer just happens to mention old Clarence in association to this guy. Needless to say I wasn’t surprised, but my gut still kinda dropped just hearing it.


Moral of the story: When bad sex shit happens to people, even if it’s just verbal abuse, they need to speak their fuckin minds and not be shy about it. Keeping that shit locked away keeps the wrong person with the power while they should be the one feeling the pain, no matter how great or small it may be.
 
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BrawlMan

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These people wait years, sometimes decades when the end result is the same, so why go through that prolonged period of pain and suffering if it was really that bad?
It's fear and threats. It's that simple. Would you be able to go immediately with out threats or ruining of reputation by being called a person crying wolf? That's what a lot of people went throguh in the TV/Movie industry. Hell, the non-entertainment industry has this cropped up in places. Yes, there are people who took advantage in the "me too" movement were liars or exaggerating problems, but they sure as fuck ain't the majority. We should still not ignores those calling for help or pointing out obvious problems almost no ones wants to solve.

Let's say if the sexual harassment was false, it still does not stop the abuse and over stressing the developers that have been going on for years at ND. They still have to answer for that. My problem with Sony and ND, is that will go out of their way to protect any criticism for a piece of digital entertainment, but won't do the same for the voice actors (unless certain ones are doing favor by sucking dick) or programmers not in a power of authority. We've seen before where crazed idiotic fans will death threats, actors, PR person or developers that had no control over anything or was just delivering the bad news, yet won't go after or threat the ones who made the dumb ass decisions or ones that crazed people disagree with and go over-the-top with their opinions. And the ones at top do barely anything to protect employees unless they are at the near top of the totem pole.

Believe whatever you wish, but I am tired of a lot of Western AAA publishers/developers bullshit. You can keep buying their games ,if you want, but I'm fucking done! Ubisoft, Activision, WB, EA, ND, 2K, and Rockstar I want nothing to do with. I have my own code and set of principles.
 
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Casual Shinji

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Believe whatever you wish, but I am tired of a lot of Western AAA publishers/developers bullshit. You can keep buying their games ,if you want, but I'm fucking done! Ubisoft, Activision, WB, EA, ND, 2K, and Rockstar I want nothing to do with. I have my own code and set of principles.
Not to question your principles, but considering you specifically mentioned western developers, how do you know it's not running as rampant at japanese studios? The whole #METOO movement seems to be more relegated to the West anyway, so maybe Japan just has less of a whistleblowing culture. I mean, they have, like, 100-hour work weeks over there at a lot of companies. I mean, most anime are made by exploiting the shit out of animators, and I'm sure this kind of abuse is not much different at their gaming studios.
 

BrawlMan

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Not to question your principles, but considering you specifically mentioned western developers, how do you know it's not running as rampant at japanese studios? The whole #METOO movement seems to be more relegated to the West anyway, so maybe Japan just has less of a whistleblowing culture. I mean, they have, like, 100-hour work weeks over there at a lot of companies. I mean, most anime are made by exploiting the shit out of animators, and I'm sure this kind of abuse is not much different at their gaming studios.
I am well aware with them too. This is just me venting right now. The same shall apply with them too. Luckily, most new anime I don't watch much. Thank you for pointing for that out. The only major AAA Japanese company I enjoy are Platinum, Capcom, and SNK. The rest are either niche or AA.
 
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Casual Shinji

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I am well aware with them too. This is just me venting right now. The same shall apply with them too. Luckily, most new anime I don't watch much. Thank you for pointing for that out. The only major AAA Japanese company I enjoy is Capcom and SNK. The rest are either niche or AA.
I get it, it's frustrating. And maybe just cutting off a few of these corperations is a good sign to give to others. But the unfortunate situation is that everything we spend money on for pleasure or entertainment is off the backs of others. It... sucks.
 
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BrawlMan

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I get it, it's frustrating. And maybe just cutting off a few of these corperations is a good sign to give to others. But the unfortunate situation is that everything we spend money on for pleasure or entertainment is off the backs of others. It... sucks.
When it comes to game any way, it's why I've been more adamant about supporting smaller developers or independents. Abuse can still happen in those areas, but most in that field care about making a quality product without dicking the consumers or those working for them over.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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When it comes to game any way, it's why I've been more adamant about supporting smaller developers or independents. Abuse can still happen in those areas, but most in that field care about making a quality product without dicking the consumers or those working for them over.
I think there’s also AAA studios that still care about making a quality product without dicking consumers or coworkers over. To simply say fuck those companies is akin to relegating all the blood sweat and tears those people put in is for nothing. Seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

There should be a way to resolve workplace issues without resorting to extreme solutions.
 

BrawlMan

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I think there’s also AAA studios that still care about making a quality product without dicking consumers or coworkers over.
There are, but it's only a very few.

To simply say fuck those companies is akin to relegating all the blood sweat and tears those people put in is for nothing. Seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
I told people this before on V1, I don't buy games out of guilt or just those "blood, sweat, and tears". I just pray that those people in abuse can find better positions or get out of the game industry.

There should be a way to resolve workplace issues without resorting to extreme solutions.
There is, it's just there are many assholes that do not want to. Not unless if it involves their money.