To Hell With Comments

[Duffy13]

*snip*

And this is where I have to disagree with the rule.

*snip*

Well that's kind of his point and the satire/irony of his post. Instead of refuting or discussing the actual content, commentors offer insults and ad-hominem attacks. Even if the speech in question is insulting for whatever reason, answering in the same way adds nothing. With a large enough audience and the subjective essence of opinion pieces the odds of 'insulting' someone are close to 100%, thus the comments regardless of what is said will frequently be 'crap' once you hit a certain threshold. Just going through the 7 pages of comments how many of them are useless agreements or attempts to insult the author? Quite a few. That is not a discussion, that is playground bullying. His post even leaves room for 'good' comments but almost no one has mentioned that.

I close with my general answer to opinions I don't like but don't feel like arguing about:
"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Now it's no secret Yahtzee wouldn't be caught dead on the forums here, but to suddenly turn around and attack everyone else who does spend their time here is a dick move.

Even if it is all just a joke (people can't comment on this LOL), it's one at the expense of his own audience for his own personal amusement.

I think even worse than that, it's a huge 'fuck you' to The Escapist itself. The company pays to provide the infrastructure for comments forum, and even hires moderators in an attempt to raise the standards. And yet, Yahtzee lumps all comments in with YouTube comments.

How about a response from one of The Escapist's editors in defence of the community and forum here? I'm not holding my breath though, As The Escapist itself has crapped over these forums by putting that Facebook rubbish on the actual content pages, and relegating actual site members' (some of us paying customers) comments to the ghetto.

Instead of the Facebook comments, why not put a 'featured' comment from the forums on the content page, instead? Escapist staff members could pick the best comments and feature them there. This would give an incentive to people to actually write more thoughtful comments. The approach taken by a moderator here doesn't seem the best - it's all stick and no carrot.

This is where Yahtzee's negativity on the subject is particularly corrosive, as it's so defeatist. To the point that we even have forum posters here saying that comments suck, in their own comments, I think Yahtzee's article is only going to make The Escapist more negative about its own comments section. Instead, how about The Escapist stands up for its forums as something to be proud of, and something worth putting effort into improving? It currently feels like the company sees the comments as some sort of vestigial organ, something it is slightly embarrassed by, but can't get rid of.

It doesn't have to be that way. Rather than wallowing in the "comments suck" misery, how about an effort towards "other comments may suck, but our comments are of a much higher standard"?

 

[Dragonbums]

Well that's kind of his point and the satire/irony of his post.

Except for the fact that we have no way of knowing if this article is satire or irony. When it comes to Zero Punctuation the video series, he's putting on an act. Yet when he's on Extra Punctuation, it's a lot more personal, real, and how he actually feels on the subject. Hence why him complaining about the comments in SM3DW on his video review didn't really bother anyone, yet him complaining about it here in conjunction with him lashing out at comments in general.

Instead of refuting or discussing the actual content, commentors offer insults and ad-hominem attacks.

A few comments out of the entire thread. It's the difference between a well thought discussion thread like MovieBob's "Pink is not the problem" video thread, and Yahtzee's thread right now. If the poster in question presented a good, calm, well mannered, discussion with reasonable points, you are bound to have a whole lot more interesting points brought up in the discussion then ad hominem attacks, and insults. As such, Yahtzee's article was negative, vile, insulting, and inflammatory. Expect your "discussion comments" to mirror that kind of post.
I honestly don't know where you have been if your seriously telling me you have rarely seen a thread where commentors are actually talking about the subject at hand.

Even if the speech in question is insulting for whatever reason, answering in the same way adds nothing.

If inflammatory comments from both sides add nothing to the discussion, why the heck should Content Contributors be exempt from appropriate punishment of insults and flamebaiting that the other side would receive? It's a huge imbalance of power.

With a large enough audience and the subjective essence of opinion pieces the odds of 'insulting' someone are close to 100%, thus the comments regardless of what is said will frequently be 'crap' once you hit a certain threshold. Just going through the 7 pages of comments how many of them are useless agreements or attempts to insult the author? Quite a few. That is not a discussion, that is playground bullying. His post even leaves room for 'good' comments but almost no one has mentioned that.

Discussions are just that. Discussions. They will be filled with disagreements, agreements, insults (that are promptly dealt with anyway) and everything in between. When you hit the 7 page threshold, most people just get bored and move on. Others skip pages 1-6 and start at 7 because they want to see only recent comments. Often times new discussions and points arise from those late pages, and extend the thread maybe even 6 more pages.

Yahtzee's posts do not leave any room for good comments because he even said that anyone who comments are basically self satisfying their own egos by posting opinions that will never mean a damn to him, to anyone on the Escapist, and to anyone else on the internet. So by me posting here according to his twitter rebuttal of the comments- I'm still a fucking "twat" because I commented.

The only good that came out of this article are that users that are once again praising Yahtzee for being a genius and that comments ARE dumb not realizing that they are equally stupid for so much as posting a stupid comment stating how stupid comments have become. Their own being nothing but a waste of miniscule kilobytes.

 

[medv4380]

Hate to say this, but this is just a case of Old Man Syndrome. Hits around the age of 30.

Nintendo, in their crazy wisdom, hit it right on the head. Somehow...

Lets get a couple of things strait. Facebook has become a haven for old people. Not me, I hate it, and I only use Google+ because I've been forced into it. Kids tend to favor Twitter, and snap chat type social networks. As seen here [http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/12/29/0416259/researchers-claim-facebook-is-dead-and-buried-to-many-young-users] Facebook is dead, Twitter is in.

How Nintendo knew that Twitter style social networking was going to be the direction everything was going in for the youth is beyond me, but they hit it spot on. I don't personally like any of the Social media messaging stuff, but I'm old, and value my privacy a bit more than most.

Hate of the activities of the youth is a tradition of the old.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Hate of the activities of the youth is a tradition of the old.

And it's a bloody fine tradition, thank you very much! Now get off my lawn.

 

[immortalfrieza]

[HEADING=1]PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT[/HEADING]

Far too many people in this thread seem to be unaware of the forum rules.

Specifically this part:

[HEADING=2]Have Respect for the Site and its Content[/HEADING]
Regardless of what some of our content creators may say, do or provoke within their videos or articles, this does not give members the ability to act in the same way. They are entertainers and if they brought their language or flaming into the forums, they would be held accountable, just as any other forum member of The Escapist would be.

I suggest to everyone, before making a post in this thread, go read the forum rules.

Do not insult out content contributors.
If you cannot keep insults out of your posts, remember you always have the option of simply not fucking posting.

And this is where I have to disagree with the rule.

I'm not directing this at you, I'm directing this at whoever person/peoples decided that this rule was even remotely fair.
I do not think that it is anywhere near fair for us to get warnings/bans for insulting other users, or people of various group affiliations, yet your content contributors are not held to that same standard. I disagree with the notion that Yahtzee is able to call all of us braindead commenting twats with no repercussions to him visible to the community, and we cannot respond back likewise.

Why should- for pure example here- MovieBob go into great lengths to talk about how black people are honest to God useless trash, and token characters, and as such should never be allowed on the big screens in Hollywood esque movies. His justifying is that why hire a good black actor with nothing to really back up their career, when you can go for the true, profitable, white character? As such, the comments would be rife with offended POC and all manners of social political backlash. A cesspit that was created solely because an Escapist staff decided that they were going to write a piece of inflammatory racism and slap that on the front page.

Any other user that pulled something like that would have a locked thread and a ban. But apparently in people like Yahtzee's case we have to sit down and eat the crap while he gets away with making an article that doesn't even begin to start up an interesting discussion. Anita threads have more discussion content than this.

I cannot have respect for the sites' content if they are nothing more than inflammatory posts meant to rile up the community. That is something nowhere near respectable, and articles like this would make Escapist no better than those sensational shill websites that are all for flamebait clicks and money.

You say that if we can't make a post without lacing it with insults, then don't post at all? Fine.

However if a content creator can't write a paid article without insulting not only the community, but the very people he relies on for a paycheck, then same to them. Either you don't post that article/video, or you proofread the thing until it is at a respectable language that's above paid [that word we aren't supposed to say on the Escapist] and flamebaiting.

^This is pretty much what I was about to post, well done. It's true, if you want people to respect the rules you shouldn't exempt yourself or others from following them, especially not for arbitrary reasons. If the content creators have the right to insult and belittle the commenters, then the commenters have the right to respond in kind.

Besides, being what they are, the content creators and moderators and so forth have a responsibility to set an example for everybody else, and Yahtzee here is setting a pretty poor one.

 

[Colt47]

It really comes down to whether or not the person commenting takes the time to think out what they are trying to post. There are plenty of people who comment on public forums that take what they say seriously, though not everyone proof reads their own work before letting it go live, allowing the momentum of the discussion carry them instead of generating their own opinion.

But Dragonburns, the statement that these comments are a waste is disingenuous, because even if everyone on the Escapist doesn't look at it us commentators are looking at it and responding. Our discussion is between ourselves, not between us and Yahtzee (unless he for some reason decides to descend into the chaos as well.)

Edit: Note I'm not white knighting Yahtzee's comment because it is down right problematic in many ways.

 

[Dragonbums]

But Dragonburns, the statement that these comments are a waste is disingenuous, because even if everyone on the Escapist doesn't look at it us commentators are looking at it and responding. Our discussion is between ourselves, not between us and Yahtzee (unless he for some reason decides to descend into the chaos as well.)

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your phrasing, but I don't think I said these comments are a waste? Either way, that's what I was saying anyway. I completely disagree with Yahtzee. Comments he deems as completely fucking useless are useful for other people. It's a total disrespect for what Escapist is. The whole point of his job is to make articles/videos and people have a discussion about said content in the resulting thread. If you- the content creator sees no value in it then fine. Disappear to real life land or whatever and come back next week to post more content. However don't even think of suggesting the abolishment of comments because you feel that your work is too damn good to be discussed by "unqualified twats" who may or may not have anything worthwhile to say.

All the while once again complaining about the completely optional, easily avoidable comments splurges at the end of the SM3DW levels, and openly admitting that he was aware that you could turn the damn thing off- and the game even ASKS YOU if you want to turn off the comments after each level before you even start the fucking game just so he would have something to complain about in the video review.
And let's just say that you couldn't really avoid the comments at the end of the levels in SM3DW- is it really that bad? Is it really? You wont' find spoilers because you already beat the level yourself. It's simply a fun little thing where you get to see other people's first impressions of the level. Regardless of how stupid they are. They aren't there to be meaningful in any way. It just makes you the player of this particular game unit, more in touch with others around the world playing it as well. Especially when there is no online multiplayer. But of course, Yahtzee doesn't like it, so Nintendo is stupid for implementing it, and as such they should of gotten rid of it because a party pooper British guy doesn't like comments ranging from "hidden star under the tree" to " I LOVE SAND" when playing a game that's all about togetherness and playing with living flesh beings in the same room as you.

 

[IceForce]

They are entertainers and if they brought their language or flaming into the forums, they would be held accountable, just as any other forum member of The Escapist would be.

Yeah, I call bullshit on this.

Low content: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/7.398156.16275670
Calling another user a troll: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/6.834524.20420620
Calling another user illiterate: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/6.829148.20201954

Why have these users not been held accountable? The forum rules say they should be, so I'd be interested to know why nothing has been done here.

[HEADING=2]Have Respect for the Site and its Content[/HEADING]

How about no.

How does the Escapist expect people to respect the site and its content, when you have staff and contributors insulting the users here with impunity, without any repercussions?

The first step to getting people to respect your site is to NOT have one-sided forum rules.

 

[IceForce]

If you cannot keep insults out of your posts, remember you always have the option of simply not fucking posting.

Well as one who didn't get offended by Yahtzee's article, I still feel this response by a forum mod is rather unprofessionally hostile. I think I'll take Yahtzee's comment about the only benefit of commenting being the enjoyment of the commenter, and your less than professional response to heart, and from now on enjoy myself the most by refraining from positing at all. Should help make your job pretty fucking easy.

It's been fun fellow escapists, but from now on I think it best to comport myself here as a dead man and just return to the land of the lurking. Tatty bye.

I find it interesting how, instead of addressing a clearly broken part of the forum rules, the mods just tell people to "stop posting".

Well, if everyone stopped posting, there wouldn't be a forum. So that's hardly a solution.

 

[medv4380]

If you cannot keep insults out of your posts, remember you always have the option of simply not [Sensored] posting.

What exactly is your bar for obscene language, and abuse of caps, and what is the site policy for rants?

The last warning I got about "offending" the contributor got overturned. Something about me being actually constructive, but pointing out errors, and contradictions was just too condescending for the moderator.

Several of the "warned" posts are little more than disagreements, with an obscenity or two, that point out the Irony of Yahtzee asking that everyone, but himself and those he agrees with be censored. After all what is Extra Punctuation, but commentary. If profanity was the bar then there is a few posts that should have been reported, and if that really is a censor just put an auto censor on the site. Your own post certainly doesn't pass the bar of profanity as well.

You can disagree with whatever you like but using large amounts of obscene language and CAPS is against our policies.

According to this, I wonder where I got it, I'm free to disagree with whatever I want. That would include the opinion of a contributor. I just need to avoid Obscene Language, and Caps.

 

[Roxas1359]

and even hires moderators in an attempt to raise the standards.

Just so you know, the Escapist does not hire any of the mods here. All of the mods on the Escapist are volunteers, going out of their way to help make the Escapist better. Mods aren't paid for their work in the slightest.

 

[Racecarlock]

I get it yahtzee, you hate people. And yet, not only did you post a mailbag showdown in 2008, but you opened a bar, one of the most social settings imaginable.

And, you know, for someone who hates social media so very much, you sure do have a twitter account that still exists.

Then again, why am I surprised? You are, after all, the same man who put skyrim in his top 5 best list one year to specifically encourage less linear games and then started bitching and blaming us when you got exactly what you wanted. Seriously, go back, watch top 5 of 2010, then read the article you posted after ride to hell. I know humans can change their mind, but sometimes you seem to have multiple personality disorder.

Plus, if you really hated humanity that much, you wouldn't have shown up at the last escapist expo. Also, I do believe you now host a gaming show on youtube called "Let's Drown Out" with someone else who I believe is human at this current point in time.

You want to be the lonely introvert because that's apparently cool these days, but I've seen you take Q&As and enjoy yourself. Yes, it would be nice if twats didn't exist, but we don't live in candyland. Get used to it, dude.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

and even hires moderators in an attempt to raise the standards.

Just so you know, the Escapist does not hire any of the mods here. All of the mods on the Escapist are volunteers, going out of their way to help make the Escapist better. Mods aren't paid for their work in the slightest.

Well, that's a pretty bad sign, then. For a couple of reasons:

1. The Escapist doesn't care enough about its community to pay the moderators? For shame.

2. A for-profit company has volunteers? The Escapist is not a charity - why are people volunteering for it? Is that even legal? Most civilized countries have labor laws that prohibit exploiting free labor unless it's for a charity or something.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Well, if everyone stopped posting, there wouldn't be a forum. So that's hardly a solution.

Oh, I disagree. It's obviously the solution that The Escapist wants, as a business. After all, not having to run forums involves a decrease in overhead costs. Of course, it also involves a loss of traffic, and therefore revenue, so that's the conundrum. If they could eliminate the comments without also experiencing a drop in traffic, I'm sure they'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

[Roxas1359]

Well, that's a pretty bad sign, then. For a couple of reasons:

1. The Escapist doesn't care enough about its community to pay the moderators? For shame.

2. A for-profit company has volunteers? The Escapist is not a charity - why are people volunteering for it? Is that even legal? Most civilized countries have labor laws that prohibit exploiting free labor unless it's for a charity or something.

Um that's it's always been. Yes it is legal to do that because it is volunteer work, and I appreciate them volunteering given the amount of stuff they have to deal with. The Community Manager manages the mods and makes sure they are not abusing their power as well, that's how it goes. It's not a shame in the slightest, because if you are shaming the Escpaist for it then you might as well shame all other forums that have volunteer moderators who aren't paid. The people volunteer because they want to help make the Escapist a better and less hostile place, doesn't matter if it's profit or not, and many of the mods have been here for quite a long time and feel attached to this place and wanna make sure it doesn't get out of control. The mods help the staff so then the staff can work on other things that the mods are unable to do.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Yes it is legal to do that because it is volunteer work,

But in many countries it's not sufficient to simply deem a job "volunteer work" - you have to have a good reason for it being volunteer work. This also seems to be a problem in the US where "interns" are basically used by many companies as a form of free labor. Other countries are much stricter about the terms of employment for interns - in that that they are supposed to be temporary, educational, and not a substitute for paid employees.

Even if it's legal under the USA's backwards labor laws, doesn't make it right.

It's not a shame in the slightest, because if you are shaming the Escpaist for it then you might as well shame all other forums that have volunteer moderators who aren't paid.

I'll gladly shame them too.

The people volunteer because they want to help make the Escapist a better and less hostile place, doesn't matter if it's profit or not...

Yes, it does matter. Although they might want to help, these people are not only hurting themselves, they are hurting other employees in the web industry by undervaluing that position. If companies consider moderation to be a job that can be done with free labor, then why would they hire professional moderators? It's just as much a valid job as being a columnist, editor or content contributor.

Aside from being just as valid a job, moderators also don;t get any of the glamor or celebrity that the other, well-paid contributors do. It's pretty disgusting that they have to do the crappy jobs, so that others can skim more profit in their more comfortable jobs.

...and many of the mods have been here for quite a long time and feel attached to this place and wanna make sure it doesn't get out of control.

So, Stockholm Syndrome, essentially?

The fact that they have been here for a long time is even more reason that they should be paid.

 

[Amir Kondori]

I take it Yahtzee sees himself as one of the "trained people with experience and qualifications and talent". Which no one would have known prior to his Youtube videos. Of course some people would probably quibble the above idea at all, I guess we will find out by reading the comments section.

Personally I think Yahtzee is way off base here. There is a lot of garbage in comments sections here, on Youtube, anywhere people are allowed to make comments really. But there is also a lot of great communication and exchange of ideas going on as well.

I consider myself pretty connected. I post on a few forums and even the wasteland that is Youtube daily. I've been able to learn things this way, to teach things this way, to see other points of views, to learn about new games or see old games in a new light. On the whole it has been enriching to be able to talk to so many different people across the web, and it is especially helpful to have a springboard to discussion, such as one of Yahtzee's videos or articles.

Maybe I'm the only one, but seeing how many people continue to comment all across the web I don't think I am.

 

[Mad World]

Snip

You make some very valid points. Seeing as how this is not a non-profit website (I assume that you're correct in that), it doesn't seem right in having volunteer moderators.

I've always wondered how often moderators are paid. I used to frequent Bethesda's forums, and wondered if their mods were paid or not. And EA's forums (specifically, Battlefield's)... knowing EA, nope (found one example of a moderator on their Need For Speed forum, and they were not paid).

 

[IceForce]

Although they might want to help, these people are not only hurting themselves, they are hurting other employees in the web industry by undervaluing that position. If companies consider moderation to be a job that can be done with free labor, then why would they hire professional moderators? It's just as much a valid job as being a columnist, editor or content contributor.

I always assumed they were paid.

Just like how exam marker moderators are paid to moderate the marking of academic exams.