Tokyo's "Anti-Anime" Bill Sparks Convention Wars

[Nocturnal Gentleman]

It's no doubt that most people getting riled up over this law know it isn't written well. So, how come instead of crying for it to be called off completely why aren't there more people crying for more negotiation? You know, so the labeling is reasonable and everyone can walk away happy? Parents of Japan would be happier with a more defined and clear system for the media, foreign anime junkies wouldn't be bothered, and the kids wouldn't miss the truly questionable content.

This would be the case if it wasn't already written into law, and if the law's architect (the aforementioned Ishihara) weren't rejecting all calls for further negotiation and ignoring the arguments of his critics.

Hopefully you can see how this is a problem?

Then there should be a stronger push for negotiation still. There are still problems with the industry and more regulation is needed. People calling for the entire thing to be dropped might as well fight with trees. That's not going to do anything if the guy who made it and his majority followers want it to stay. Well nothing except make the industry seem full of asshats and too linked to foreign influence and ugly images they don't like anyway. This is the starting bench for more regulation. I can only see it being altered not being killed off. Ishihara will make sure it exists in one form or another whether you like it or not.

 

[Grimrider6]

Then there should be a stronger push for negotiation still. There are still problems with the industry and more regulation is needed. People calling for the entire thing to be dropped might as well fight with trees. That's not going to do anything if the guy who made it and his majority followers want it to stay. Well nothing except make the industry seem full of asshats and too linked to foreign influence and ugly images they don't like anyway. This is the starting bench for more regulation. I can only see it being altered not being killed off. Ishihara will make sure it exists in one form or another whether you like it or not.

I'm not sure who's calling for the whole thing to be annulled, but personally, I'd like to see it amended and a clear content rating system put into place, along with oversight and accountability. There's no way Ishihara and his cronies will let it drop, so a compromise is the best alternative.

And there is a push against it. The ten biggest publishing companies have boycotted the Tokyo Anime Fair (organized and sponsored by Ishihara) in protest. There's a protest rally/doujinshi event in Tokyo this coming March. People are making their voices heard. But the ball is really in Ishihara's court here. He can just keep saying "no", and there's little or nothing people can do while he's still in office. The only two potential avenues of protest are to hurt Tokyo's economy by having the anime industry pull up roots and leave the city, or by waiting for the next election cycle and make a concentrated effort to have him voted out. Given Japan's record levels of voter apathy AND voter ignorance, I have little hope for the second option.

In the meantime, Ishihara and the Municipal Government of Tokyo have given themselves carte blance to do whatever they want, and they have been openly laughing and mocking the efforts of the industry and the fans to make their voices heard. When the Big Ten publishing companies declared their boycott, Ishihara just laughed and said "they'll be back next year".

Disdain much?

 

[Grimrider6]

Well nothing except make the industry seem full of asshats and too linked to foreign influence and ugly images they don't like anyway.

Wait, what? Foreign influence? I'm not sure where you get that image. The anime/comic/video game industry in Japan is one of the most inwardly-focused in the country. They barely acknowledge their foreign fan base at all.

 

[Nocturnal Gentleman]

I'm not sure who's calling for the whole thing to be annulled, but personally, I'd like to see it amended and a clear content rating system put into place, along with oversight and accountability. There's no way Ishihara and his cronies will let it drop, so a compromise is the best alternative.

And there is a push against it. The ten biggest publishing companies have boycotted the Tokyo Anime Fair (organized and sponsored by Ishihara) in protest.

I've seen quite a few people pop up in these threads wanting the law completely dropped. Censorship is evil and all that. I see the possibility of inaccurate labels which are harmful but not blocking the material. Of course many are being over dramatic but that attitude is prevalent nonetheless.

I know Ishihara is an asshole, but I don't see most of this anger amounting to much. If they boycott then the government will ignore them and be even more determined not to listen. If they up and leave I can see a backlash like no other against the industry. Many people are going at this with pure emotion and it shows. To suits on the top that kind of effort is laughable, like you said.

In order to make a real change I'm seeing a more sly and pure business minded tactic. In this way, the fans can NOT get involved. The angry fans represent what they don't care for. I'm not trying to insult you guys but I see the government in Tokyo looking at you guys like the big industrialists of old looked at their protesting workers. The same, "You guys can whine and cry all you want but we'll do what we set out to do, and you're just going to deal with it. Try and break away it won't work. You can be sure of that," attitude. It has to be more calm than this. I don't know what behind the scenes stuff has to go down to make even a few of the lawmakers care about alternate opinions but I guess I'll never really know.

I may seem cold and nonchalant about this and it's true I kind of am at this point. Mostly because if you aren't a citizen of the country with mentioned law I don't see your opinion mattering much. You don't like who they vote for. Oh well. You don't live there. The people of said country will push forward what they think is best and that is that. If laws cause more harm than good they will change. Maybe not immediately but they will. However, only if the majority of CITIZENS choose to resolve it in whatever way they want. You can cry bullshit on the highest mountain top but they won't care.

 

[Grimrider6]

You can cry bullshit on the highest mountain top but they won't care.

I do not necessarily disagree with you, sir. But I will continue to cry bullshit from the highest mountain top until I lose my voice, regardless. Even if it's on the off, one-in-a-million chance that somebody will notice. I much prefer that to sitting on my thumbs and doing nothing.

If anything, I consider it the fans' role to ensure that people are properly educated on what Bill 156 is, and more importantly, what it isn't. It's particularly dismaying to see everybody shrug their shoulders and say "it's keeping porno away from kids, what's wrong with that?" when, in truth, the bill doesn't even affect actual pornographic content at all.

 

[Nocturnal Gentleman]

Well nothing except make the industry seem full of asshats and too linked to foreign influence and ugly images they don't like anyway.

Wait, what? Foreign influence? I'm not sure where you get that image. The anime/comic/video game industry in Japan is one of the most inwardly-focused in the country. They barely acknowledge their foreign fan base at all.

You pretty much explained the attitude towards foreign opinion and pressure, towards just about anything they do, which I was talking about. It's inward based. They don't care how this affects you, and the fans you're speaking for aren't exactly valued opinions either. It's their industry and they'll slap whatever regulations they want on it. Outward pressure like you and others are trying to build is unwanted and ignored.

 

[Grimrider6]

Well nothing except make the industry seem full of asshats and too linked to foreign influence and ugly images they don't like anyway.

Wait, what? Foreign influence? I'm not sure where you get that image. The anime/comic/video game industry in Japan is one of the most inwardly-focused in the country. They barely acknowledge their foreign fan base at all.

You pretty much explained the attitude towards foreign opinion and pressure, towards just about anything they do, which I was talking about. It's inward based. They don't care how this affects you, and the fans you're speaking for aren't exactly valued opinions either. It's their industry and they'll slap whatever regulations they want on it. Outward pressure like you and others are trying to build is unwanted and ignored.

You do realize that the vast majority of pressure and opposition is coming from Japanese fans and Japanese publishing companies, don't you? I'm just speaking to the outside-Japan audience to prevent people from being uninformed about the bill in question. This is Japan's game, and I know it. At least until enough time passes for me to apply for resident status.

 

[Nocturnal Gentleman]

You can cry bullshit on the highest mountain top but they won't care.

I do not necessarily disagree with you, sir. But I will continue to cry bullshit from the highest mountain top until I lose my voice, regardless. Even if it's on the off, one-in-a-million chance that somebody will notice. I much prefer that to sitting on my thumbs and doing nothing.

In no way am I saying you can't. Gotta vent somehow. Just don't expect too many listeners that really control this issue.

 

[Nocturnal Gentleman]

You do realize that the vast majority of pressure and opposition is coming from Japanese fans and Japanese publishing companies, don't you? I'm just speaking to the outside-Japan audience to prevent people from being uninformed about the bill in question. This is Japan's game, and I know it. At least until enough time passes for me to apply for resident status.

I know a lot of pressure is coming from those groups. I feel there's a hell of a lot more against them though. I understand informing people on their favorite media but a lot of this information seems to be shared in a way that incites anger. That seems...pointless. It just makes a bunch of angry AND powerless people.

 

[Grimrider6]

I know a lot of pressure is coming from those groups. I feel there's a hell of a lot more against them though. I understand informing people on their favorite media but a lot of this information seems to be shared in a way that incites anger. That seems...pointless. It just makes a bunch of angry AND powerless people.

Are you suggesting ignorance and blindness to the current issues is better?

 

[Danzaivar]

If you can't make your points without resorting to insults, sir, perhaps this isn't the discussion for you. We're trying to be civil. Please grant us the same courtesy.

Mkay, I'm going to take that as my cue to bow out of this argument. You win an internet thing or something.

Good luck with getting this bill overturned (if that's what you want to happen)!

 

[ph0b0s123]

Let's see....Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagan would be relegated, GTO would be relegated, Golden Boy would be relegated, Naruto would have to tread lightly (they can consider the physical abuse of the female ninjas as pornographic content) One Piece would have to tread lightly (Nami's like 16-ish at best and wears almost nothing depending on the situation). Dragon Ball Z may actually be okay. Pretty Cure...nope gone.

I will say this. Japan is one of the countries that views sexuality as a norm compared to us (Americans) who view is as some taboo, which is total B.S. Sexuality is normal, it is human, to deny that or even control it....****in stupid and egotistic in so many levels.

Let's see from what I know of who watches and reads what in anime usually...

Gurren Legann... I have no idea how that would be treated. I see absolutely zero Gurren Legann manga, anime or advertising around, and never have since I got here.
GTO actually might be OK. They just had another movie out last year, which makes me think it might be popular enough to save itself.
I'm sorry, but Golden Boy needs to be relegated anyway. That IS for adults.
I can GUARANTEE you and would bet my life's savings on One Piece being absolutely 100% safe from relegation. It is the almost undisputed king of children's anime and manga here, and as much as I say it's a problem, it would take more than Nami's full figure to send it to the back room. If One Piece was declared 18+, there would be a huge reverse parental outcry against the law.
By the same token, I think Naruto should be fine too, as another one of the "Big 3" along with Bleach. Though that's not to say that Naruto and Bleach don't have problems with sexualization (mostly in Bleach) and large amounts of violence (in both) that need to be worked out. To pull a recent economic buzzword, those three are "too big to fail". The board would be shooting itself in the foot if it declared those 18+.

My concern is more about the next Bleach, Naruto or One piece. In the current environment series like these would either be AO or maybe never made at all....

I have posted my thoughts on this law in the thread before, so I won't go into it again. One question I have though is that for all the people who have voiced support for this law. Do you also hope that California win the supreme court case about regulating video games?

These two laws seem to be doing exactly the same thing. Trying to regulate an industry that mainstream society has problems with. Trying to keep certain of each industries products out of the hands of children. It just always makes may laugh how, in these threads anyone who is negative of anime, insulting about anime fans or who supports this law, are some of the first ones to jump up and down when news about gaming regulation comes up. Bleating 'why can't mainstream society understand that video games are not harmful'. The next minute they are insulting anime fans who are asking for exactly the same consideration.

Some of the comments I have seen in here are the same type of uniformed and insulting generalizations I would expect to see from the right wing press about video games, that makes gamers so angry. No I don't standup to say that everything in anime land is perfect, far from it. But the same is true in video game land. You think only anime land is guilty of fan service?

Well gamers, if you cannot understand how anime fans feel how do you expect mainstream society to understand how you feel. This disconnect never ceases to amuse me....

 

[Toriver]

My concern is more about the next Bleach, Naruto or One piece. In the current environment series like these would either be AO or maybe never made at all....

They'll be made, they'll likely end up looking more like Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh, though.

I have posted my thoughts on this law in the thread before, so I won't go into it again. One question I have though is that for all the people who have voiced support for this law. Do you also hope that California win the supreme court case about regulating video games?

These two laws seem to be doing exactly the same thing. Trying to regulate an industry that mainstream society has problems with. Trying to keep certain of each industries products out of the hands of children. It just always makes may laugh how, in these threads anyone who is negative of anime, insulting about anime fans or who supports this law, are some of the first ones to jump up and down when news about gaming regulation comes up. Bleating 'why can't mainstream society understand that video games are not harmful'. The next minute they are insulting anime fans who are asking for exactly the same consideration.

Some of the comments I have seen in here are the same type of uniformed and insulting generalizations I would expect to see from the right wing press about video games, that makes gamers so angry. No I don't standup to say that everything in anime land is perfect, far from it. But the same is true in video game land. You think only anime land is guilty of fan service?

Well gamers, if you cannot understand how anime fans feel how do you expect mainstream society to understand how you feel. This disconnect never ceases to amuse me....

This law does seem almost identical to the video game law, but the video game law is a bit harder to defend, for two reasons.

First, there is already a video game rating system in the US, the ESRB, that allows adult-oriented material to be published with an M rating as a warning to parents, and some retailers already ask for ID verification when those games are purchased in order to prevent children buying them. Developers are (supposed to be) following the ESRB guidelines when producing and advertising their games for a target market.

This leads into the second reason. For the most part, in terms of games for younger children (I'm thinking elementary school level), developers do follow those guidelines. It gets more murky when their age hits double-digits, and admittedly, some developers do go for Rated M For Money [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RatedMForMoney], and that's what the California law is trying to stop, but the M rating should already be a warning to parents that kids should not be buying or playing this game. But for the most part, when a developer is trying to develop games for kids or teens to play, they will stick to levels of sex and violence appropriate for kids or teens to see. Further, the adult fandom is a bit different in this regard in that when playing a game meant for kids or teens to play, they don't expect or demand things catered to them or their more mature interests. If they want that, most adult gamers will turn to more adult games altogether, not ask the creators to add such adult things into the children's game.

Anime and manga, however, do not have these two reasons going for them. There is no ratings board or oversight regarding what material is appropriate for what age group, and mangaka and anime producers are sneaking underage fanservice, excess blood and guts, and other "adult" things into their children's material all the time. Also, as I have mentioned before, all the manga and anime not deemed porn is mixed in together alphabetically on most store shelves, often separated into areas for boys and girls, but not split by age group. So there is really no sorting, and if parents aren't careful or if the cover or packaging isn't crystal clear (and let's face it, it's unclear more often than not), while they won't be buying their kid some porn, they could be introducing the kid to some quite M-rated stuff. So while I'm not sure whether I am completely for or against either law, I can see more reason for the Tokyo law than for the California law, given those reasons, and can understand some opposition to the California law. Though I do agree that anyone who claims that video games are art and anime and manga aren't is just spouting BS.
[small][sub]If anything, it's the other way around...[/sub][/small]

 

[John the Gamer]

Lol. In your face, suckers. Shouldn't try pushing a law like that. It's stupid and damaging to the economy (mangas account for 3.6 billion dollars in revenue in Japan alone).

 

[Nocturnal Gentleman]

I know a lot of pressure is coming from those groups. I feel there's a hell of a lot more against them though. I understand informing people on their favorite media but a lot of this information seems to be shared in a way that incites anger. That seems...pointless. It just makes a bunch of angry AND powerless people.

Are you suggesting ignorance and blindness to the current issues is better?

I'm not saying ignorance and blindness. I'm saying stop with the "They can/could/might," stuff. All that does is make people overreact and make useless emotional responses. We really don't know what they will or won't do with the law. Things going totally out of control is just speculation at this point.

 

[Grimrider6]

I know a lot of pressure is coming from those groups. I feel there's a hell of a lot more against them though. I understand informing people on their favorite media but a lot of this information seems to be shared in a way that incites anger. That seems...pointless. It just makes a bunch of angry AND powerless people.

Are you suggesting ignorance and blindness to the current issues is better?

I'm not saying ignorance and blindness. I'm saying stop with the "They can/could/might," stuff. All that does is make people overreact and make useless emotional responses. We really don't know what they will or won't do with the law. Things going totally out of control is just speculation at this point.

Sorry, no, that doesn't wash. Pointing out potential pitfalls of poorly written legislation is a valid and necessary activity. Any democratic system relies on checks and balances. Without them, it's an open invitation to abuse. Where they don't exist the system is flawed and can be open to abuse, now or in the future. Such flaws deserve the glare of a spotlight, in the hopes of them being corrected.

You call it overreaction and useless emotional reactions, but I think of it as necessary reaction and justified emotional response. People deserve to know the potential ramifications of this, and where my arguments are flawed or farfetched, I expect the public to call me out on them. People draw conclusions best based on an abundance of information, not a scarcity.

tl;dr No, I'ma keep on doin' what I'm doin'

 

[Scars Unseen]

They could always pick up shop and move to Okinawa. Lord knows we could use some revenue that doesn't rely on tourism.

 

[Wow they sure are generous with the usernames]

First, this bill is not anti-loli. Loli is already classified AO in Japan. This bill allows the Municipal Gov't to reclassify a broad, unspecific spectrum of "socially harmful" material as AO, arbitrarily and without oversight.

I am aware of this, I was trying to point this fact out to settle a lot of the pointless bickering about whether or not it was an anti-loli bill.

Second, I do not agree that an anti-loli bill is good. A drawing or a story of a crime is not morally equivalent to a crime. I only agree to laws that prevent crimes and protect victims. Loli involves neither.

A drawing of child pornography is still child pornography.