Tokyo's "Anti-Anime" Bill Sparks Convention Wars

[PumpItUp]

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I think that we are almost entirely in agreement. I think that the industry as a whole has long departed from what could be called "tasteful" sexuality. Unfortunately, government actions to censor the media will destroy too much good media to be redeemed regardless of how much tasteless anime they stop. Really what needs to happen is simply having the industry become committed to releasing high quality products rather than marketing to the lowest common denominator. Also consumers need to raise the standards of the anime that they will buy so that those types of show don't get the funding to continue.

The only other point left to address is the "pushing the border of decency", which I feel is not a bad thing. As mentioned earlier in the thread the rape of Casca in Berserk would quite probably fall under this ban. Casca's rape certainly pushed the boundaries of what would be considered decent, but did so in a tasteful and meaningful way. So rather keeping shows from toeing the line of decency and occasionally crossing over it would be better to promote the tasteful or thoughtful use of sexuality rather than mindless and gratuitous flashes of sexuality.

I agree with you on the first issue you mentioned and whole-heartedly agree with the second. The uses of sexuality in situations that challenge good taste can be beneficial to anime and should not be censored as part of a blanket ban. The Berserk example you provided above is one of the many good uses of sexuality in anime; others include the stark nakedness of Lucy in the beginning of Elfen Lied and the outright abuse of Rei in Evangelion. But what sets those apart from the boundary-pushing sexuality in shows like Eiken or Queen's Blade is its purpose.

Using sexuality for the purpose of fanservice alone will never allow the series to rise above a fanservice vehicle. Elfen Lied and Evangelion suceed because they use it for different purposes: Lucy begins the series naked to highlight the inhuman aspects of her personality (most people are embarassed to be naked; Lucy feels nothing at all). Evangelion begins exposing the abuse of Rei about the same time that everyone starts losing their minds, setting the dark tone that permeates the end of the series. Each series is carefully constructed with the characters in mind, not the audience. Pandering to the wants of the audience is an easy way to damage a series, and pandering to a horny audience is the easiest.

 

[theultimateend]

This is just silly and really really stupid.

I can only assume that the most pathetic amongst us become politicians and lawmakers.

Because only a complete paint chip eating retard would think that kids need to be protected from the world.

PS. I quoted you because I agree with your point and wanted to expand on it. I noticed it might have seemed like I was attacking you .

So after reading through this thread, I have determined the main argument against this bill to be as such:

1) Everybody in this thread has no moral issues with sexual depictions of children.
2) Everybody in this thread actively purchases works with sexual depictions of children and enjoys them due to such content.
3) Everybody in this thread would boycott the Anime industry if it stopped producing the virtual child porn that you guys know and love.

Good thing that I'm not a pedophile like you anime fans. I bet you fantasize about these characters by the looks of some of these comments. You might as well be child molesters because that's how you seem to be in your heads.

To this, and to everyone else making the error of judgement in here.

While I don't 'get it' I will defend a persons desire to enjoy bondage. Or scat play, or the sexualization of non-existant characters (no matter what, seeing as these beings don't exist).

As long as nobody is being hurt it doesn't matter. You can and should enjoy whatever you like if there is no harm being done.

Unless we are all willing to admit right now, that watching and enjoying a horror movie makes us all murderers, this entire discussion of censoring sexual content is moot.

Because it can't just be one thing. It can't just be that sexual entertainment == actual real life personality, it is either all things or nothing.

Anything in between is unfair to all parties involved and insulting to the entirety of humanity.

Again, and frankly I don't care if folks believe me, I don't "get it". But there is absolutely no harm in it. Because it would take a supreme retard to think that what you watch is directly related to what you do in the real world.

The reason child porn is illegal is because it requires an actual child to be made. Sexy anime kids require an artist and a pen. It's weird, but it's utterly harmless.

The people who molest kids were going to molest kids no matter what censorship you put in. The best you can hope is to just make it worse by demonizing them instead of actually trying to find ways that'll help them not do it.

ProTip: Censorship or Abolition of anything does not make the situation better. You want to make the activity or interest less appealing compared to other more positive things, no demonize the activity itself. (IE. Make the apple look better than the cereal, don't just shit in the cereal and hope they eat the apple)

I will note that I enjoy writing murder mysteries, that doesn't mean I also enjoy murdering people. Fantasy is fantasy. To anyone who actual grasps that I am pleased, to anyone that doesn't, well frankly those are the people we should be worried about. Not the people they are trying to repress.

 

[Ilyak1986]

My take on just about everything is consent. Sure, you can make something really disturbing, but so long as it's marketed as such to those that would buy it, why am I the one to be getting in between that?

As Theultimateend said, child pornography is bad because it requires a child. If there are people that enjoy that, well, I don't want to be associated with them, but that's their prerogative.

Frankly, I can't stand almost all of the magical-or-pilot-of-giant-robot-teen-saves-world anime. I wish there were other kinds of anime made. I mean heck, we have (had?) our Saturday morning cartoons about kids saving the world or whatever it is, then we have our more late-night kind of stuff that's clearly *not* for kids like adult swim.

How about some anime for adults, and I don't mean "adults only" aka hentai, I mean some generally philosophically deep stuff not just "pretty teen beats up bad guys".

IMO if the anime studios were to make anime that targeted the people who enjoy things such as The Daily Show, they could have a ton of success.

 

[Qmonster]

Now, I have to say, Japan has some pretty creepy cultural practices surrounding sexuality, but no censorship bill is going to help those. While in theory trying to help the development of minors is good, it's basically a 1 in 100 chance that such a bill will be affective.

The creepy sexual practices started because the government in Japan made a law outlawing the depiction of genitals in film or animation, Thus was born the tentacle.
EDIT: I am amazed of the ignorance in this thread, "That will stop those Japanese to stop being creepy perverts!!"
This will effectivly destroy one of japans main exports, Anime and Manga.
This is also censorship, But no-one cares about that unless it is happening to their favorite tv show or game.

Uh, no, the creepy sexual practices go further than some law. The first tentacle porn appeared in 1814 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tentacle_porn for more info), however that doesn't change the fact that yes, this law will do nothing but provide a governmental choke hold on a medium that relies on artistic freedom. I think Japan has bigger fish to fry than anime studios, and there are better ways to raise our kids than pointing at cartoons and saying "DON'T LOOK AT IT!"

 

[Nerdygamer89]

I'm all for freedom of speech and freedom of expression in any and all artistic mediums, but honestly, people are upset that depictions of minors getting raped/molested/whatever are being banned? I could understand there being a problem if the bill extended to other forms of anime not including the aforementioned subject matter, and if that happens to be the case it is a definite problem which should be rectified.

I understand that no actual person is being hurt (obviously, they're cartoons) but before you condemn the bill for violating freedom of expression, you should really consider the kind of people that want to view minors depicted in this fashion: IE people who should talk to a shrink, talk to Chris Hansen, or go to jail.

DISCLAMER: the above statements only apply to hentai in which it's obvious they are very young. Figured I'd get that out of the way before the anime crowd jumped down my throat =P

 

[Jezzy54]

On the bright side, Anime is taken pretty seriously in Japan, so it's not quite as worrying as the stuff video game fans have had to put up with.

 

[ph0b0s123]

Another thread about this bill and the comments are the same as usual.

First everyone just concentrates on the sex side of the law including the OP and forgets that this law also has provisions about violence which may have more or an effect on the industry than the sex part of the law.

Second thing is that non anime fans come out of the wood work with their 'ha ha serves you pedo's right' comments, which always cracks me up when these are the same people who complain that the rest of society always labels them as potential murders and shoot shooting candidates due to their enjoying video-games. These people who wish that society would just try to understand them, just have no understanding for others themselves. The word hypocrites

The third comment that crops up is the 'great this will get rid of lolicon' comments. Missing the point that what they consider as disgusting depictions of children won't be touched as they are already classed as adult only and not touched by the bill.

I am unsure whether I am for or against this law. I certainly hate any type of censorship but I am also interested to see if this law results in a fragmentation of the market where there will be manga made really for kids and manga that is made specifically for adults which is not just pornographic. There has been a small market for adult manga up to now termed Sienen (there is a term for the adult women as well which I have forgotten) which has had some awesome titles but mostly people concentrate on the kids (shoen) market. If the shoen market becomes more regulated then maybe there will be an explosion of uncensored Sienen manga, stuff that does not always feature school children as the protagonists (boring).

But I would support it if they did come down a bit harder on the lolicon. They should make a law saying that you can draw the stuff, but to make sure it is definitely being done for artistic reasons you are not allowed to make any money off it or sell it. That would sort the artists from the people doing it for other enterprising reasons. And will hopefully decease the amount of this stuff available.

Even saying that I still don't believe in the looking at drawings of non real kids harms real kids argument and never will until someone puts some scientific evidence in front of me. If it was the case then how come it is not illegal to be a fan of Saw movies etc, surely as you enjoy watching murders, so by the same logic, you are going to go and murder someone, so it good we have locked you up before you could do that....

Anyway the main reason for my post was to say people stop being so predictable with the comments and say something original on the subject please....

 

[D Moness]

DISCLAMER: the above statements only apply to hentai in which it's obvious they are very young. Figured I'd get that out of the way before the anime crowd jumped down my throat =P

Problem with the remark is that adult anime is already regulated. This new bill doesn't touch porn (since that is already regulated). The new bill will take everything that might be slightly offensive to other people and put that in the back room together with all the AO titles.

Small example the transformation scenes in sailormoon (feels like this one is used a lot) you not not see anything but the outline of the girl. Still if the government sees this as sexualizition of the characters this series will be on the same shelves as the adult only titles.(Not to mention Usagi is 14 when she starts a relation with tuxedo kamen(who is 22 i believe)). The problem with this new bill is that it is too vague.

Most people jump on the pron wagon while the new bill has nothing to do with that since that is already regulated

 

[CrazyGirl17]

WOW... people are really taking this seriously...

I'm not sure where I stand here. On the one hand, I'm tired of all this "Japanese Hentai" crap... but on the other hand, some good series have stuff that could be misconstrued as such.

...I think I'll just sit this one out.

 

[Siege_TF]

WOW... people are really taking this seriously...

I'm not sure where I stand here. On the one hand, I'm tired of all this "Japanese Hentai" crap... but on the other hand, some good series have stuff that could be misconstrued as such.

...I think I'll just sit this one out.

The only think injustice needs to prevail is for good men to do nothing. ~Ben Franklin.

 

[Ninonybox_v1legacy]

This law is moronic, art is art and you can't censor it.

Good on them for fighting back.

Very true.....and good thing Elfen Lied was already released....it would have never seen daylight it it came out now.

 

[CrazyGirl17]

WOW... people are really taking this seriously...

I'm not sure where I stand here. On the one hand, I'm tired of all this "Japanese Hentai" crap... but on the other hand, some good series have stuff that could be misconstrued as such.

...I think I'll just sit this one out.

The only think injustice needs to prevail is for good men to do nothing. ~Ben Franklin.

...Touche.

Again, I don't know exacatly where I stand on this issue, but considering my preferrence to find the middle ground in conflicts, I can't help but wonder if there are any...

 

[Chibz]

This law is moronic, art is art and you can't censor it.

Good on them for fighting back.

I would hardly call "Erotic depictions of minors" art, I prefer to call it "Sick".

God bless you sir, someone has to think of the (Imaginary) children (who don't have legal rights, or genuine feelings)!

Preach it elsewhere, dumbass. If someone likes to fap to loli who are we to judge?

 

[FalloutJack]

Nope, this will only harm things in the long run. I don't see this as positive at all.

 

[Booze Zombie]

Power to them, censorship makes the world boring.

 

[Normalgamer]

Well done Tokyo government. You've taken the first step towards getting rid of your worldwide image of being pedophiles and freaks.

Just like all UK people have crooked teeth and enjoy tea right? Right? The Japenese have no such image, just like any silly UK stereotype is false and nobody believes it. I don't think you realise the difference between what you percieve of a country and what others percieve.

OT: Does nobody read closely? It's not the fact it's banning underage girls being potrayed, it's the fact it gives the government the right to go "THINK OF THE CHILDREN! BANHAMMER!" on anything they dislike. Key example: Say the Japanese don't like pokemon, at all. So they say "Well jeez it's just like two animals cock-fighting! Ban ban ban." No more pokemon in japan. The bill is going to cripple the non-pornographic animes as well.

 

[UberNoodle]

...This won't stop anything, I remember a trigonometry book where some questions where about looking up a womens skirt from a certain angle(One was going up stairs and another was sitting down)....so yeah even math is porno related

That's rubbish. I doubt that was a real text book in real schools. More than half the things that Western media freak out about from Japan as being "normal" here, is ... ta dah ... NOT normal here. Japanese people are always studying for something, and there are those who also like a bit of "what the Internet is for", and so, such a book could find a market. It was not and never will be a text book in the sense you seem to be implying.

This law is moronic, art is art and you can't censor it.

Good on them for fighting back.

I would hardly call "Erotic depictions of minors" art, I prefer to call it "Sick".

God bless you sir, someone has to think of the (Imaginary) children (who don't have legal rights, or genuine feelings)!

Preach it elsewhere, dumbass. If someone likes to fap to loli who are we to judge?

YOu know, you really don't help your side of the debate by calling people names and being an arrogant prick. Where do you get off acting that way? Do you lack the maturity or CARE for this discussion topic, to address it in a constructive manner? All you appear to want to do is push your views on people. You attitude is not inducive to further understanding.

Now, if you look look at what people are saying here, it is NOT that drawings have legal rights. That is your tactic for dismissing their points without having to address them objectively. In fact, their view is the affect that such drawings and sexualisation could have on PEOPLE, who are NOT imaginary and DO have legal rights.

The aim of the legislation is to keep such sexualised images out of the hands of children. If it were graphic violence, would you be any less narrow on the subject? The legislation may have some ways to go before it is truly viable, however, it may actually be FINE. Has anybody here actually gotten a translated copy of the legislation, or are they just taking the word of interest groups as gospel?

Viewing this legislation objectively, it can be seen as a step in the direction towards a rating system for this type of content, and THAT is NOT censorship. Animation predominantly attracts children, and that's a statistical fact. It is only fitting that something be done to ensure that content for kids is not side by side with content for adults. I can tell you that here in Japan, except for actual 18+ content, adult and kids material is mixed.

The emotionality and alarmism against this legislation is severely clouding the issue. It is NOT going to designate all content as "pornographic". It is NOT going to put NGE behind the R18+ curtains in stores. Application of this legislation will not be like a blanket. Context will be imperitive to all decisions. I see no other aspect of Japanese media rating and censorship that lends credence to the panic mongering here and in other forums. The blurring of genitalia is the only thing, and that hardly dents how extremely liberal Japanese legislation is with adult media.

 

[UberNoodle]

Well done Tokyo government. You've taken the first step towards getting rid of your worldwide image of being pedophiles and freaks.

Just like all UK people have crooked teeth and enjoy tea right? Right? The Japenese have no such image, just like any silly UK stereotype is false and nobody believes it. I don't think you realise the difference between what you percieve of a country and what others percieve.

OT: Does nobody read closely? It's not the fact it's banning underage girls being potrayed, it's the fact it gives the government the right to go "THINK OF THE CHILDREN! BANHAMMER!" on anything they dislike. Key example: Say the Japanese don't like pokemon, at all. So they say "Well jeez it's just like two animals cock-fighting! Ban ban ban." No more pokemon in japan. The bill is going to cripple the non-pornographic animes as well.

But they won't. I'm certain of it. I live in Japan and have done for a long time and the country is very liberal in its rights to media creators. The government aren't going to go nuts banning anything they feel like. It is just fear mongering to say otherwise. And anyway, for all the threads upon threads of fear about THIS legislation, I see almost none about the very dangerous legislation for government run Internet blacklists being proposed by the USA and UK governments. If you want to start with "what if's", those black lists have far more dangerous and socially destructive applications if misused. The legislation being introduced in Japan is being blown out of proportion by interest groups and people going off half cocked after reading articles with scant information. This happens for EVERY peice of legislation about media rating or moderation. Yet right now, there are far worse laws being formulated.

 

[CrystalShadow]

Now they'll probably make hentai of 50 year olds that LOOK like they are 5.

Lol, that doesn't work in most places that have these laws. UK law bans depictions where the characters look under 18 (in the subjective opinion of the Judge or Jury in the court, no less), regardless of how old they actually are.

That's a problem of a different sort though. Besides, 18 is not a useful age if you want to determine anything based on looks alone.

The age range of 16-30 or so can't meaningfully be deduced from appearance alone in the real world anyway. So how is that supposed to work?