Tokyo's Anti-Loli Bill has Passed in Committee.

[Saltyk]

To be honest, i find that this won't help anything. To me the only reason why Japan is so fucked up as far as the porn industry is concerned is because of the law banning genitalia *it must be censored* on film, this makes it so, in a small way the Japanese are sexually repressed. If you could just see the genitalia, there would be less of a reason to have a girl being fucked in the blur by a giant octopus.

I don't know if anyone pointed this out (it's your curse for being on the first page), but from what I understand Japan is actually very repressed in terms of sexuality. Didn't think you'd hear that, did you?

It turns out that the reason all that freaky monster and tentacle stuff came about is that the artists who wanted to do normal things couldn't. They were restricted from doing actual sex between a man and woman. But a woman and a horrible squid monster? Yeah, that's okay. No restrictions there. Gotta love censorship!

Also, people in Japan have sex less than half as often as their western counterparts. That might say something bad about us, too, but it also points to a problem in Japan. In fact, Japanese society is getting older. There are fewer people having kids because they don't have much sex to begin with. So believe it or not, Japan is repressed.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

[Last I checked, you cannot "exploit" drawings as though they were physical beings. You cannot harm them, you cannot imprison them, you cannot break the "rights" of something that does not

You're going to go with the pedantic argument? Fair enough.

No, you cannot literally exploit a fictional character. But you can depict the exploitation of a fictional character. If you disagree, I suggest you look at the definition of the word depict: "describe: give a description of;" (<a href=http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+depict&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a>source).

Looking back at my post I note that I used the word depict for this very reason. Were I perhaps insane or stupid and thought that fictional characters could by harmed directly I would have used the word "documented".

The end line is, it is a fictional character. Depicting the exploitation of fictional characters is still a moot point, as fictional characters are not people, they do not have rights, they do not have feelings, they cannot express emotion, and they do affect the real world outside of individuals with psychological inclinations that already have a tough time deliberating reality from fiction.

It may be disgusting (I personally think it is, but I am not going to stop others from looking at it if they want, either), but simply being "disgusting" to some people does not give those the people warrant to restrict the rights of others whom do not view it in the same light to view it.

It is a moot point because you decree it thus? Well then rejoice world for the issue has at last been resolved!

You'll note that, had you read my post, that I do not think such things are inherently wrong. My argument was simply that if the japense entertainment industry as a whole was going to collapse as a result, then clearly they were almost exlusively devoted to producing loli nonsense. The saturation of the industires that was implied by the post I quoted was what I do not agree with.

I don't care that you have depictions of underaged characters being brutally raped and all that. I personally find most examples I have seen as nothing but obscene. That does not mean I think ill of them because they still serve a purpose of a sort, just not an artistic one.

The bottom line, if you cut past the banter between us is this: if the various industires cited are really incapable of producing something other than obscenity then the problem is with the industry. The law intending to regulate this is an evil certainly but I will not shed a tear because it destroys industries that only produce obscenity.

But this will not be the result. These industries will survive even if this law comes to pass precisely because they are capable of producing things that are not obscene. What's more, even should they come to pass and damage be done, the Japanese people will inevitably force it to be changed if they do not largely agree with it's application. In the end they are the only ones charged with protecting Japenese speech and they are the only ones capable of determining if weird Japanese porn really has a place in their world. I will not root for the censor but neither will I fall into a rage when another people are incapable of resisting censorship. My own efforts in such endeavors are best directed to similar matters here in my own nation.

 

[tthor]

While I don't disagree with you, OP, why doesn't Loli have a right to exist? Because you find it disgusting?

no, because loli is essentially child porn (tho often in an animated form). being it is essentially animated child porn, that means it is essentially encouraging pedophilia, which is essentially encouraging a form of rape in some cases

http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=https://blogs.emory.edu/animec/files/2010/08/kaichou-wa-maid-20-37.jpg Your right.. Because that makes me want to go screw every little kid walking down the street..... Just like all my video games make me want to kill people and hijack planes.

flatchested teenagers are not what is constituted as loli

 

[Jim555]

While I don't disagree with you, OP, why doesn't Loli have a right to exist? Because you find it disgusting?

no, because loli is essentially child porn (tho often in an animated form). being it is essentially animated child porn, that means it is essentially encouraging pedophilia, which is essentially encouraging a form of rape in some cases

http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=https://blogs.emory.edu/animec/files/2010/08/kaichou-wa-maid-20-37.jpg Your right.. Because that makes me want to go screw every little kid walking down the street..... Just like all my video games make me want to kill people and hijack planes.

flatchested teenagers are not what is constituted as loli

By the way, that character in the picture isn't a girl, but its still the same

 

[Nikolaz72]

Thank fuck!

Can I just say, that Japan has some really, really, really disturbing fetishes on their shelves. RapeLay [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RapeLay] is one just example.

I am all for the freedom of expression/speech...but you can go too far. Japan has a history of flirting with the border of sanity with this kind of shit and I am glad that this bill passed.

If you are reading this Japan, I am happy that you have matured a lot in my eyes.

I couldnt agree more with you in some ways and not so much in others. This rapelay game causes the same discussion as when we compare "Violence/Nudity" i mean theres friggin games about murder on our shelves, and somehow i find it hard to believe that murder is better than rape (Excuse me if some people believe otherwise, its physical harm taking anothers life against well MOSTLY psychological part physical harm. It is two widely different things but one of them is worse is at least as bad if not worse and is widely accepted purely because its unserious and unrealistic. And from what i read about rapelay. Well, lets just say you have to be (Excuse me when i say this) An utter retard in order to find it to be real. Immoral, yes. But so is killzone and blah blah blah(Shooters) Blah blah blah (Some horror) blah blah blah (Some RPGS) So essentialy. Western countries have the same weird fetishes just different from their weird fetishes. I mean you dont know how many million of our kids get off from an 8+killstreaks by killing random russians every day on the console, which is to say a fantasy. Heck, even a lot of people was quite contend with playing a communist dictator or the devil himself. If people think they should remove datingsims etc etc from their shelves then we also gotta remove GTA from ours. I mean, you are a guy in a criminal underworld dealing drugs, mugging people.

Buttomline to this. Yes i believe immoral games should be removed from shelves and put into an adult section. But you know what? I think retail stores should do the same. But 18+ games into an adult section. Yes, i've played Counterstrike when i was under eighteen, heck i probably most games i played was above my age but that is besides the point. If immoral games of ONE kind gets into an adult section. Equally immoral games of another kind should as well.

 

[tthor]

While I don't disagree with you, OP, why doesn't Loli have a right to exist? Because you find it disgusting?

no, because loli is essentially child porn (tho often in an animated form). being it is essentially animated child porn, that means it is essentially encouraging pedophilia, which is essentially encouraging a form of rape in some cases

in the same way that Call of Duty encourages people to kill people?

combat games get a sense of entertainment out of factors such as the adrenaline rush produced by combat. loli produces the sense of entertainment thru sexualization of prepubecent girls, to produce a feeling of sexual attraction. if a person you knew constantly jerked off to videos of men raping women while simultaneously murdering them, how would you feel about that? not to say that loli is anywhere near that bad, but I'm trying to prove a point that some actions, even tho they may not be real, aren't always necessarily healthy

 

[evilartist]

It's cartoons, not real people. If anything it's better to have loli since paedophiles won't be getting off to real kids.

^^ Smartest thing I've read on this topic so far^^ (I apologize if I neglected any posts that have already said the same thing). I don't think loli deserves regulation just because it doesn't meet our tastes.

Consider this scenario, fellow Escapists: the majority of people think homo eroticism is disgusting, right? Obviously, that's because heterosexuality is the more common and instinctual sexual preference. So, does that mean gay porn should be restricted or censored? Why not, since so many people clearly hate it. With loli, it's an attraction to prepubescent anime girls (or just 'youthful'-looking girls?). Fictional/cartoon material that does not directly attack or threaten the life or lifestyle of an individual warrants no offense. It's only censored because of the disgust derived from the common people who can't comprehend the phrase "to each his own." It's just ignorant people suppressing other people that they don't understand.

What I will question is this: what kind of a sick fuck would even think about making something that is a deplorable act in real life, into an exaggerated cartoon? Why does such a person even exist?

You're pretty quick to judge and label. As for your question, here's my theory: the idolization towards ideal youth and beauty (known as moe [http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=moe]) is pretty damn common in anime, even with female characters that are legal adults. Lots of people, especially in Japan, love women to look younger and cuter instead of more "developed" and mature. Loli is often misconstrued as something being linked directly to pedophilia. Did you even bother thinking that maybe some guys just love super-young looking girls, regardless of age? You're focused on the character's age. They're focused on their idealized youthful appearance.

 

[Kaboose the Moose]

I consider funeral protesting to be harassment but even if it's not you can't compare the two. The WBC targets someone and tries to annoy them. Rapeplay is something you (for the most part) have to choose to play.

And I don't think human decency is on the line when it's pixels.

Have you ever heard of the Aristocrats joke? Would you want that banned? (serious question).

I consider depicting minors in sexual material illegal and funnily enough, so does the laws of everywhere but Japan (the US, prosecutes under obscenity laws). If by censoring the content, you can uphold the law (much like the child Pornography Prevention Act of 1996) then by all means....

Additionally, if you can isolate the concept of human decency to only exist in physical constructs and not see it as a moral and psychological fabric then no, I see very little point in having this conversation with you.

As for the aristocrat's joke. No..don't be a smartarse! When did telling a joke become illegal?

I thought we were talking about what the law should be and not what it is.

If that's not the case...then uh not much to discuss.

No, what the Japanese law is..is a joke. What it could potentially strive to become is- a legislation that is much akin to the censorship wielding decadent Western countries with clear, logical and sane legislation..like say from Canada, where child pornography is defined to include:

"a visual representation, whether or not it was made by electronic or mechanical means", that "shows a person who is or is depicted as being under the age of eighteen years and is engaged in or is depicted as engaged in explicit sexual activity", or "the dominant characteristic of which is the depiction, for a sexual purpose, of a sexual organ or the anal region of a person under the age of eighteen years." The definitive Supreme Court of Canada decision, R. v. Sharpe, interprets the statute to include purely fictional material even when no real children were involved in its production.

Of course this view and variations of are held by most nations (more or less). Even if not outright illegal as with the US, it can be tried under the Title 18 of the United States Code 1466A, obscene visual representations of children Act [http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1466A.html].

All of a sudden censorship is not a problem....but Japan wants to regulate some loli porn, which, who are we kidding- ARE depictions of child porn, and fuck; the "freedom of speech brigade" comes crashing through like an epileptic salmon.

 

[Madara XIII]

Thank fuck!

Can I just say, that Japan has some really, really, really disturbing fetishes on their shelves. RapeLay [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RapeLay] is one just example.

I am all for the freedom of expression/speech...but you can go too far. Japan has a history of flirting with the border of sanity with this kind of shit and I am glad that this bill passed.

If you are reading this Japan, I am happy that you have matured a lot in my eyes.

Well Bugger my Bumblebees Breadbox!! The world has finally started making sense! Finally *Cries* They finally did it. The world is now a better place

 

[knight steel]

But but i love lolicon and.....and....i...LOVE LITTLE GIRLS

Hit it boys:
I love little girls they make me feel so good
I love little girls they make me feel so bad
When they're around they make me feel
Like I'm the only guy in town
I love little girls they make me feel so good

They don't care if I'm a one way mirror
They're not frightened by my cold exterior

They don't ask me questions
They don't want to scold me
They don't look for answers
They just want to hold me
Isn't this fun
Isn't this what life's all about
Isn't this a dream come true
Isn't this a nightmare too

They don't care about my inclinations
They're not frightened by my revelations

Uh oh take a second take
Uh oh it's a mistake
Uh oh I'm in trouble
Uh oh the little girl was just to little
Too little, too little, too little
Isn't this what life's all about
Isn't this a dream come true
Isn't this a nightmare too...

And I don't care what people say
And I don't care what people think
And I don't care how we look walking down the street

 

[Kalfira]

I dunno. One the one hand I see your point and could rest a little easier if there was less of this crawling the back alleys and forums of all of our favorites summer home, the internet. On the other hand I believe that every bit of information, speech, art, opinion, and belief has the right to exist. Even if I believe its sick, or wrong, or depraved, I believe that it has the right to exist so that people have the OPTION of choosing that if they wish. I don't so much love the depraved or the sick, nor do I love speech or art; I love freedom.

 

[Kaboose the Moose]

What makes you think we are fine with the censorship laws all ready on the books?

While I can't prove that every single person is 100% satisfied with the law, I can at least infer (judging by the lack of anyone willing to tone down censorship laws concerning children) that most people are happy with where things are. Alternatively, no one wants to upset the applecart.

Take obscenity. It's obscenely vague and should be scrapped. The government has better things to do than waste taxpayers going after people who make porn (with adults).

I am assuming you are from US. If so, constitutionally pornography is protected under the free-speech act. That's why porn is NOT censored and all you get is "click here if you are 18" button. Child porn on the other hand IS censored and has a relatively well defined criteria (most law journals will give in-depth examples, with case by case studies for reference) for what constitutes as "obscene". Yet, does this clash with the protection of minority views, a.k.a the first amendment? Yes it does. Is this a problem for most people? No, because at the end of the day pedophiles go to jail.

That's how the law works and why it's not perfect. I for one however, don't mind if my freedom of speech is slightly infringed upon, if it'll server a greater good.

I for one think the obscenity law should be repealed.

You mean the one protecting the children of America? Of course, mate...is this because it offends you that your liberties are being infringed upon?

 

[SenseOfTumour]

Yeah, I'm for the spirit of the law, I guess, trying to clamp down on the purely sexual child porn part of loli, but, as ever, they've written another law that says 'We in power demand the the right to ban all things related to *mumblemumble* children *mumble* fictional *mumble*', leaving it wide open to be misused at a later date.

Laws should be tight without loopholes you could drive a truck full of loli thru. I mean this in both directions of course, my main problem is seeing this misused to ban other things.

It's been mentioned before, but they tried to do this in this country, and many people stood against it, which is brave, considering the media hype that there's a paedophile on every street corner and just being in a room with one will kill your child.

Alan Moore among others explained that an all out ban just blocks creativity, and you need to deal with things on a case by case basis.

Sometimes in fiction, children and sexuality meet, and it doesn't mean it's child porn, or that it was written purely to get Gary Glitter off.

In short, I'd be for a less widely open version of this law, but against something that's clearly been written to fuck over people's rights in future.

 

[Centrophy]

Man, I've been a part of this community for a long time and I've been finding a disturbing trend in the seeming majority of pro-censorship/pro-corporatist attitudes. I just can't understand the kind of logic that goes into wanting to have less rights and less freedom or take away the rights and freedoms of others just for being different.

This thread is just a small example of that. Now I know what someone is going to bring up, "But, Centrophy, we have to protect the childrens (mothers, puppies, baby seals, plants, what have-you.) Now I know this will sound cliche but "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, deserve neither."(sic)

Just my two pence.