not sure some loli stuff sure put in the triple x section but stuff like eternal sonata is harmless so whatever put the porn in the porn section japan thats wat its therefore you can show your younger half sister a loli film as much as you like it doesn't mean your gonna get lucky thats what the subway is for lol loli that is!
(I preface this by saying this is my opinion and I apologize for not being able to express myself very well)
Those of you are going "Loli is bad because it depicts underage rape/sex in such a way that will encourage fans to go rape real little children", I think you might not have as much to worry about as you thought.
On occasion when I check out Sankaku, I've seen a term bandied about in relation to real people: 3D Pig Digusting. I had a general idea of what I thought it meant, but I looked it up to be sure. Basically
"Considered very lolworthy during the time, 'pig disgusting' soon supplanted plain old "disgusting" as an even more graphic way of saying something is shit awful. It was soon appropriated by denizens of /a/, the primer husbands of 2D as a weapon against anything three-dimensional. Obviously this applies to real women, but can also encompass computer animated cartoons or awful foreign shit.
Japanese fan boards have a similar estrangement with "the third dimension" but 3DPD is not one of their memes.
The assumption that Anonymous has a hate for "3d Trash" has occasionally been turned on its head, and instead used to rationalize that many of the things otaku find interesting or sexy which could be seen as objectionable in a real context are never actually sought out in real life."
So, these fans of Loli may turned on by pictures of little children, but they won't go near real ones. I'm sure there are real pedos out there who like loli, but I think the general loli fan, and hard-core fan that is sexually attracted to anime/manga/game characters has no sexual attraction to a real person.
I mean, look at a picture of an standard anime-style moe underage person. Beautiful hair, large shiny eyes, a cute lithe figure, and sweet smile all while throwing around "Onii-chan!" in an adorable voice. Now look at real kid. I'm pretty sure that a good number of the desirable attributes I listed aren't going to apply. Real kids are noisy. They piss their pants, their teeth are crooked, their noses run, they get food all over their clothes, they can be huge brats, they throw tantrums, they hit, pull hair, and even bite sometimes. Not exactly a bastion of sexual attraction there.
A loli kid is a twisted, sexualized version of a child, but the fact that it is sexualized is what makes it unrealistic. Throw a real kid at one of these loli fans, and they'll probably run back to their love pillow so fast you could see a dust trail. They want the fantasy, not the reality.
Here's some food for thought. There's this new anime show I've heard about called Ore no Imouto ga Konnani Kawaii Wake ga Nai, or My Little Sister Can't Be This Cute. Called Oreimo for short, it's basically about a guy who discovers his cute little sister is a huge anime fan. We've got the good trappings for a loli themed show here. Young girl, little sister character who's also an anime fan, and as I've heard the show is implying romance may happen between the sister and brother, incest. Quadruple whammy right there.
You'd think the loli fans would totally idolize this sister character and buy every love pillow and inappropriate figurine they could find. And yet, I've been hearing that a good number of loli fans actually don't find her cute at all. So people say it's because she's a bit too bitchy, but I don't buy that. Not with the popularity of the tsundere type character. I think it's because she's not an eroge or idealized version of a little sister or loli character, she is a realistic sister character. I'm seeing fans say things along the lines of that she's too much like a real little sister to be fetishized to.
That seems telling to me. Take away the fantasy and put realism into it, and the sexual appeal is gone. And if just portraying the character, despite being right in the category of loli, as a realistic person makes her not attractive to loli fans, why would they go for a real child at all?
Again, I'm sure there are some sick loli fans out there that do want to bang real kids. I just think that there are less of them than some might think.
This is kinda like taking a prison inmate's punching bag away because the warden was horrified by what the bag was supposed to represent; he's just going to start kicking the shit out of actual people and the problem is now so much worse than it ever had to be god you are so stupid who put you in charge.
Seriously, if it wasn't for the internet's ability to stimulate certain biological drives and reduce them to ignorable levels, I'd be out right now, wining and dining one of several interested-in-me-so-something-must-be-wrong-with-her-way-deep-down women. I don't think you want to encourage pedophiles to leave their houses and get active in their pursuit of things I'm more comfortable not thinking about.
This is pretty much the main issue (or SHOULD be). Anyone who's done any psychological research can tell you that the urges won't go away just because the release goes away. With the release gone, another will either have to emerge or the effects could likely become traumatic. In other words, the Id knows what it's after, but doesn't very much care what the source is. Better it be something safe and victimless than something dangerous. Moreso, an attraction to lolicon doesn't equate to an attraction to child porn any more than seeking fun through violent games equates to seeking fun from real violence. If indeed lolicon IS purely representative of child porn, what's the thing those people are going to search out as a lolicon substitute?
Also there's the whole 'not everyone has the same values' issue. I personally find it more disgusting that it's expected a separate culture is to become your culture. That attitude is dangerous, and has resulted in genocide in the past. Sure, this isn't such a catalyst, but it's a shaky start.
Whether or not it's offensive is not an issue. Everyone has different values, and whole cultures have different beliefs. If you'd like to prevent everything offensive in this world for the sake of fairness, there's a lot that other people and cultures find offensive that's perfectly normal in most western cultures. I'd list things, but I'm guessing if I went all-out it'd be left with maybe breathing. My point is, to condemn something that's not inherently harmful because it's offensive to you is a very poor argument, and is certainly not something you'd want to support in the long run.
Anyway, I didn't really read anything in that article about banning lolicon, mostly just about it being heavily regulated. That's going to cause big problems for a lot of Japanese businesses and most likely is going to cost people their jobs. That's quite a bit different to being outright banned though, so I guess the whole debate here is misguided.
(Incase it sounds like it, this isn't directed at you, SODAssault.)
On the one hand, sometimes a proposal to censor certain material can sound like a good idea. On the other hand, I'm sort of against any censorship ever. It is too easy for such a power to be misused. I mean, I'm sure a few of you remember the internet censorship drama (currently hanging in limbo) that we Australians were going on about. That bill was being sold on the fact that it was only to stop child pornography, yet less than half the sites proposed for banning actually contained that type of material, and once the proposal was passed, there was no way to stop the government banning whatever the fuck it wanted. I just think that the cons of censorship outweigh the pros.
HAHAHAHAHAH! Child fetish porn getting killed is AWESOME! And for all of you all scared to death about this...it's like slapping a Parental Guidance Label on shit, I assume. I don't think it will REALLY stop stuff from spreading, it just effects the commercial sell of it. Besides...I've seldom heard of people stopping at porn to fulfill their sexual needs. So if they're looking at that shit, they're also looking for a way to do it for realsies.
That's because that's not something you hear about.
Really, the problem with this law isn't what it's supposed to ban, but what it can be used to ban aside from its original purpose due to its very vague wording.
And I say ban because while it doesn't actually do this, it will discourage production of works that might fall into the category of "normal" but could fall under this law's jurisdiction and therefore have very decreased sales.
I don't mind as long is it doesn't affect things like, say Higurashi/Umineko no Naku Koro ni, or Elfen Lied, or that type of thing. There's certainly a place in the Japanese culture, and indeed in all cultures, for some things that are deemed 'excessively' violent or whatever, because at the end of the day some of those can be considered art,or have other redeeming qualities to them. The three anime I listed are just for examples, though admittedly Higurashi and Umineko are easily redeemed for their violence and adult content because they are examples of extremely well-done storytelling and development. Likewise, in Western culture, we have things like A Clockwork Orange and Videodrome, which can now be cited as classics of modern cinema. So there's definitely a place in culture for the sort of things that this bill could be used against.
Which is why if the bill isn't enforced against such media then I'm happy for it to be in place if it's protecting people from the unnecessary, uber-extreme stuff, and more importantly, protecting kids against that sort of stuff (not by stopping access to it, but by limiting access even more - anything else is just down to parents). If it starts intruding on true culture, then there's a problem...
[small]Hopefully that all made sense, if not then just ignore it as the ramblings of an outspoken fool... [/small]
Haven't read through the thread since this is old new(a few days o.o) so I've already raged on it. This bill restricts anything that is ?likely to interfere with the healthy development of youth?. So, Nana getting her arms and legs lobbed off is not okay. I don't even need to mention Higurashi and Maria gets slapped around in Umineko. I don't really know how the bill affects already published works, but the ones you mention falls under the description.
Doesn't really get rid of it though, does it?
Even the report says it will only be 'moved into the adult section'... wouldn't it be there already? Or do they keep loli material out in the Young Adult areas?
I honestly don't know, but this really isn't as big a movement as many would hope for. I guess it's not our place to judge though, after all... it's not out laws, it's theirs.
The number of people supporting censorship in this thread is absolutely mind-boggling. ANY censorship is bad, period. This reminds me of a quote that has been alluded to already, but I think deserves another look.
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
The wording. Basically, anything deemed "dangerous for children's development" is at risk of getting rated AO and banished to commercial death. While the bill mentioned sexual content, it does not exclude anything else.
The number of people supporting censorship in this thread is absolutely mind-boggling. ANY censorship is bad, period. This reminds me of a quote that has been alluded to already, but I think deserves another look.
First they came for the loli
and I did not speak out
because I was not a loliphile.
Then they came for the Zoo
and I did not speak out
because I was not a zoophile.
Then they came for the furries
and I did not speak out
because I was not a furry.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
The number of people supporting censorship in this thread is absolutely mind-boggling. ANY censorship is bad, period. This reminds me of a quote that has been alluded to already, but I think deserves another look.
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Cool quote, but completely out of place. They didn't ban or censor them: they just moved it to the AO section. Like, you know, a video game getting M because it has tons of violence in it?
Also, What the Fuck. Is wrong with Japan that I only ever hear of these kind of things existing there?
Edit: Wait. Anything deemed dangerous to children is moved there? Ok, I can understand where you're coming from. But I'm pretty sure you still exaggerate.
No worries, we're on the same page here. In fact, I agree heartily with everything you said. I'd even go so far as to say that I feel bad for pedophiles in general, since my belief is that they're as helpless to their attractions as I am to recently-legal asian women, or Richard Simmons to...
I can make an educated guess, however.
With that in mind, I'm guessing all pedophiles must have identity issues of some sort, what with no common distinction made between a person who sublimates their attraction to children and a person who willfully harms children for their own gratification. I mean, if I lived back in WWII-era America, I'd probably be similarly labeled as a monster for fraternizing with the enemy, and told that I, and anybody like me, is a deeply flawed, irredeemable individual that most people would rather see shot than rehabilitated, even if I was Audie fuckin' Murphy. The alienation has got to get progressively worse with the consideration that they'll probably never know of anybody with similar urges that isn't being marched out of house with their head hung low on national news; if I was a woman in puritan-era Salem, I wouldn't even think the word "witchcraft" too loudly, let alone try to seek out like-minded people for validation of any kind, meaning nobody would ever tell me that I'm allowed to be okay with myself.
Hell, the reason I didn't come out and say this the first time around is because I know that at least half the people reading this are going to say "he's showing sympathy to pedophiles, he's a closet kiddie-diddler", and really, that's the kind of them-or-us dehumanization that's typically reserved for enemy combatants (terrorists, nazis, communists, what-have-you), where even toying with the notion that these people are GASP! also human beings makes you one of them by association.
I'd never say that actual child porn is ever okay since it exploits real children in ways that are objectively horrifying, but the point of pornography is to safely provide vital stimulation to people who, for whatever reason, are unable to have sex at the time of participation (and for any pedophile with a shred of human decency, that time is all the time). Like it or not, these are human beings with urges that nobody can adequately suppress sans side-effects without assistance of some sort. If they want to jerk it to hand-drawn representations of children, I say, have at it, because that's a victimless crime that was really never a crime until society banded together to cry for the blood of an easy-to-hate common enemy. I don't care if it is an explicitly sexual attraction, that's the kind of thing that won't go away, and I'd much rather have someone vent that urge by making toilet papier mache rather than violating a child or going postal.
It seems like these measures are put in place to flush pedophiles out into the open, rather than allow them to quietly integrate into society without causing problems for anybody... which is hardly a solution, even by the "kill 'em all" crowd's standards, because killing every last gay (society's previous love-to-hate sexual identity) person on earth wouldn't prevent gay people from existing in the future. Being a child molester absolutely does warrant severe punishment, but merely being a pedophile doesn't make anyone a monster in my book. For humanity's sake, I hope that pedophiles (and ephebophiles too, I guess, but they kind of already get a unanimous "ehhhhhhh, we've all pointed out a hot chick to a friend only to have them disgustedly point out her age which you were previously oblivious to") can at least be tolerated in the future.
[sub]Apologies if this got ranty, I've had a lot of stimulants in the last 24 hours.[/sub]
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