Tolkien, Overrated?

[The Cheezy One]

He created his own world. If you had to describe everything in your country, it would be a touch drawn out, wouldn't it?
If you think that it is too austere, go for The Hobbit. It is basically LotR lite.

But worldbuilding alone, one could argue, does not necessarily make a great novelist.

There are plenty of great writers who set their stories in their own neighborhoods, and there are many very creative minds and world builders who would never get a novel through any publisher because they do not understand how to tell a story.

Now, of course Tolkien is not an extreme case, but a good example to illustrate how worldbuilding and storytelling are not necessarily reliant on each other. I agree, the world he created is amazing and he himself has displayed more interest in building that world rather than telling a story within it. Unfortunately, there is neither a good market nor huge prestige in writing mere descriptions of worlds, so he had to embed it in a story.

And the story, again, well, is not the best thing ever written in Fantasy. Is it entertaining? Sure. Is it interesting? Yeah. Is it influential? No doubt. However, the story takes the back seat with the world riding shotgun. That is something one has to keep in mind. Tolkien was a brilliant world builder, but an average storyteller.

I am re-reading the LotR as we speak write.

The thing is, it isn't a story, but a Chronicles. It describes the events of a small group, heading east to destroy a trinket. The story takes a back seat to the world, because the world is so much bigger.

But I agree, making your own world does not make you great - but there is making your own world, and there is creating it. Lloyd Alexander, writer of the Prydain chronicles - most famous for the animated film the black couldron, based on a crush of 5 of his novels. He made his own world, but, after the inevitable comparison with Middle-earth, it is quite badly written, despite having a very fast (By Tolkiens standards) and interesting plot. There is so little description of the world, I have no way of knowing where the characters are, how many people are involved in a fight or how far apart places are. As long as you are awake enough in LotR, you will always understand where they are and where they are going.

But there is another comparison that hits the Worldbuilder from a completely different angle - Terry Pratchett. A genius among men - he creates a world by providing very little description, and letting our minds fill in the rest. Because everyone knows what Colon looks like, and everyone agrees with the general description - but very rarely is he actually described - just a fat local bobby - but everyone knows what a fat local bobby should look like, so it fits so well, because - well, let me put it this way:
Tolkien expands our minds to fill in his world, but Pratchett adjusts his stories to fit in our minds perfectly. Which is better? Can one be better than the other?

I am really enjoying this! I very rarely get literary discussions
/swirling brandy in a glass

 

[Tharwen]

You forget that the books were written in the 30s/40s, when words were valued almost as much as currency.

Almost any book written before about 1960 will contain descriptions almost as long as a... really long thing.

Also, the genre has been flooded with writers since he first published the series, so his ideas don't feel original. Still, if you don't like his writing style, I won't try to make you read them. Read what you want.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Is Tolkien overrated? Hell no!

Am I getting tired of other fantasy writers copying his work? Hell yes.

Tolkien may have set the standard for fantasy writing, but that doesn't mean every other fantasy story needs to follow the exact same rules of "benevolent Elves" and "stubborn Dwarfes" etc. Once, I'd like to see their roles exaggerated where the Elves are like an insane woods people who hate humans and the Dwarfes are like Morlocks.

Just some experimentation instead of the same old boring rules of engagement.

 

[Rusty Bucket]

Most of the things you associate with fantasy races was created by Tolkien.

Technically, no they weren't. Tolkien was heavily influenced by Norse mythology. And when I say influenced, I mean he basically stole shit. Dwarves and elves both came from Norse myths, and the Vanir and Maiar are incredibly similar to the Vanir and Aesir from Norse myth. There's also some naming conventions he took from it as well, especially evident in dwarves, who all have very Nordic sounding names in Tolkien's work. Not to detract anything from Tolkien, he was amazing, but this stuff wasn't actually his idea.

OT: The books themselves are incredibly difficult to read, Tolkien has a very weird writing style. Most fantasy authors these days try to involve you in the action as much as possible, whereas Tolkien's work is written very much as an outsider, almost sounding like a documentary. What makes him special is the extent he went to to build his world. He created cultures, religions, myths and legends, different traditions, even enitre fucking languages. He's mapped pretty much the entire ancient history of a world that existed in his head, including the creation of it and prophecies about the eventual 'end' of it.

No-one else has come even close to that kind of accomplishement yet, except for possibly Robert Jordan. The man was a genius in his own way, and whether or not you like his books or writing style, calling him ioverrated is just stupid, the amount he contributed to modern fantasy, and literature in general, is staggering. If anything, he's underrated.

 

[lokun489]

I agree, way too much detail.

 

[Serenegoose]

We all have our dislikes, but you still should acknowledge major figures. Tolkien was practically the father of modern fantasy stories, just like how Shakespeare was for theatre or Freud was for psychology. You may think their works are crap, but you can't deny their influence.

Ooooo /thread.

Without Tolkien, we'd have no elves at all! And maybe even less!

Elves? Yes but they would all be Santa style elves. Though we wouldn't have orcs because those were pure Tolkien.

Not quite... I mean yes on the orcs, but not santa style elves - elves are part of the greater Fae concept, and so whilst Tolkiens elves are a development on that, and Santa's elves are too, there's a core group of ethereal creatures that inhabit a large part of celtic mythology many of which can be defined as elves - the Aos Si. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidhe , better known as 'The Fair Folk'.

 

[GrimTuesday]

+1 Internets to the person who mentioned Beowulf, was definitely one of Tolkiens bigger influences. As to the OP? Despite the fact that LOTR is probably one of my favourite books, I can see your point. Personally I love overly descriptive writing (Peter F Hamilton, Tolkien, Charles Stross etc.) but that's just because I'm a bit weird, it's certainly not for everyone. Overrated though? By his fans maybe, but that's the same for...well pretty much everything that has fans.

What I'm talking about when I say overrated is he is often held up as the epitome of fantasy writers even thought they are plenty who are better at crafting a story than he is. Yes he was a spectacular world builder but his stories suffered because of it.

Thing is though, that's just your spin on things. I'm one of those wierdy geeks who thinks Tolkien was an excellent world-builder and an excellent story teller. Lord Of The Rings isn't just an excercise in describing trees and rocks. You've got epic moments like Eowyn's face-off against the Witch-King (which the movie butchered btw), mixed with scenes of pure fucking tragedy (the scene in ROTK where Gollum sees the hobbits sleeping and almost abandons his plan to murder them, or the entire Scouring of the Shire chapter), and scenes of almost Zen-like wisdom and intelligence (pretty much anything Gandalf says, especially at the start of the Fellowship). It follows characters through ups (birthday parties and coronations) and downs (being kidnapped by uruks, poisoned by spiders, and stabbed by wraiths straight out of your worst nightmare), and manages to do so in a way that doesn't feel contrived or forced: he doesn't add random bits of violence or action just to keep the tension high. Nor does he have characters follow predictable hollywood character arcs, which the films completely missed. Frodo does go through some pretty major character changes, but they're also pretty un-family friendly: the quest essentially breaks him as a person, and leaves him unable to live in normal society. Hence why he disappears in the boat at the end.

TLDR: There is far too much that happens in the Lord Of The Rings to simply write Tolkien off as a world builder, not a storyteller. Every element of the story, from mythological symbolism, to character motivation, was given incredible amounts of thought by the man. If you don't dig it, that's completely cool, but don't blindly accept the idea that he was a sub-par writer who wrote about nothing but trees. There is a lot more to LOTR than that.

Also, don't use the films as a representation of the books. They're enjoyable, but touch on about 1/10th the stuff the books do.

Yes I do agree that there were so pretty cool parts, although I have to admit that Eowyn was a pretty predicable character in my opinion (although that could be because I'm so used to the princess dresses in armor trope by now that it came as no shock), But the problem is you have to wade through a shitton of world building just to get to those parts. There is a reason why I love George RR Martin's work and it's not because of the excessive sex. GRRM packs a bunch of story into each book and uses minimal amounts of world building because he likes to let the reader fill in the blank parts. Tolkien on the other hand, as I've already said in this thread, hands you a picture of the world and the proceeds to describe it for you.

 

[Xrysthos]

I personally like all of his work, including the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, but my favourite fantasy series is probably a tie between The Malazan Book of the Fallen and A Song of Ice and Fire. The only aspect of Tolien's work I don't fully appreciate is the implementation of songs/lyrics. I don't mind a few lyrics in my books, but there is a limit to my interest

You mean you don't want to know all the words to The Bear and the Maiden Fair or The Reynes of Castamere?

Those are examples of the lyrics that are good. The problem is that there are so many songs that cover more than a page and are of little importance other than hinting at some obscure piece of lore. To be honest, the worst part about Tolkien's use of songs is that it has been copied too many times by people who don't do it half as well.

Then again there are the songs you mentioned, which rank right up there with the best poetry ever written. The problem is that there's just too much of it in the books. In my opinion, at least.

 

[DazBurger]

Overrated? Nah.. The man was a pioneer.. And I really liked The Hobbit.

I diden't like LOTR though.. At least not the first book which I got stuck in...
After 100 pages about the elves I gave up... I hate elves -_-

The Hobbit had a über bling dragon! How do you beat a dragon with über bling!?

 

[GrimTuesday]

I personally like all of his work, including the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, but my favourite fantasy series is probably a tie between The Malazan Book of the Fallen and A Song of Ice and Fire. The only aspect of Tolien's work I don't fully appreciate is the implementation of songs/lyrics. I don't mind a few lyrics in my books, but there is a limit to my interest

You mean you don't want to know all the words to The Bear and the Maiden Fair or The Reynes of Castamere?

Those are examples of the lyrics that are good. The problem is that there are so many songs that cover more than a page and are of little importance other than hinting at some obscure piece of lore. To be honest, the worst part about Tolkien's use of songs is that it has been copied too many times by people who don't do it half as well.

Then again there are the songs you mentioned, which rank right up there with the best poetry ever written. The problem is that there's just too much of it in the books. In my opinion, at least.

I hope you never read Redwall then... a good 24th of each book is song.

 

[Jondare]

Grim i like you man and normally agree with you but not this time!!!!

Tolkein is one of the greatest, if not the greatest fantasy writer of all time. As good as the Trilogy and The Hobbit were his greatest book was the Silmarillion. I think I have read that book like 15 times or so it is that good.

The LOTR Universe is so well described and full of rich details it is mind boggling.

Yes I am a LOTR fanboy and proud of it!

As far as other writers being overrated I am not sure. I have read plenty of books but no single writer has ever held my interest quite like Tolkein.

Someone needs to read A Game of Thrones. That book and it's sequels will ruin most fantasy for you it's written so well. That and it will kill your optimism when reading fantasy books, George RR Martin is not afraid to piss off his readers by killing favorite characters.

I wouldn't say that it ruins reading other fantasy books, but it sure as hell leaves you wanting for more, in terms of realism.

That said, i LOVE Tolkiens work. As someone else further op in the thread wrote, he didn't really write a book, he created a world.
i somewhere read an interview (can't remember if it was with him or his son), where he stated that he first created a language (the elven language, the name escapes me). This language of course needed a people, enter the elves. They however needed a history and a world, and THAT was what got him started on creating middle earth.

it wasn't a matter of creating a good book, it was about creating a world for his language.

And thats dedication if ever i heard of it.

 

[Furbyz]

I've been thinking about giving Tolkien another shot, personally. I read his books when I was younger and didn't care for them that much because he spent forever describing things, like 5-10 pages just for Bag End. That may be hyperbole since it's been probably 8 years since I picked up the books. Sure did feel like it, though. I think I'll be better able to appreciate it now.

 

[smithy_2045]

Lord of the Rings was so boring it put me off reading altogether.

 

[RIOgreatescapist]

Just because he writes hardcore nerd material doenst make it bad material nontheless.

 

[Seneschal]

I'm a pretty big fan of fantasy yet I hate the Lord of the Rings books and most of Tolkien's other books. To many of my friends who are also fantasy fans this is like blaspheme and I have on quite a few occasions had to defend my opinion in heated argument form.

My problem with Tolkien is I feel that he draws things out, especially descriptions. Also he has gone so in much detail that it kind of ruins the experience for me. It's one thing to develop you're world but there is such a thing as over developing it. It makes it so the reader is less involved in the telling of the story, you can't even think about what the rock looks because he has already spent half a page describing it.

How do you feel about Tolkien? What other writers do you feel are overrated and why?

Edit: I'm not refuting Tolkien's contribution to fantasy as a genre In fact I have admitted that he was a major influence to many of the best authors of our time.

As was already said, his legacy alone is enough to respect the man, but I do understand when people argue about his work.

It seems to me that you have a very contemporary attitude towards his kind o fantasy, especially if you play videogames (which I suppose you do since this is the Escapist). Modern society consumes its media in different ways - we have loads of pre-established knowledge to make the distant and alien seem familiar, we have tropes, archetypes, a history of the genre to give us perspective, trends that evolve before our eyes, new formats that are more intuitive to the reader, perhaps shorter, perhaps worded differently, but in every case we've streamlined our media. Not just artistic ones, if you look at a school textbook from 30 years ago and compare it to a modern one, it will look inefficient, boring, uninspired, unintuitive and all-around obsolete. We've simply learned to absorb information with much greater frequency and in smaller packages, like our everyday life demands. Tolkien didn't have all this, and was basically creating a new genre based only on children's fantasy, fairy tales, folk beliefs and genre fiction of the day. It speaks to his credit that he made something coherent at all.

Now, especially to people exposed to new media like the internet and videogames, literature like Tolkien can look stiff and lethargic. Fans read it BECAUSE of how it's written, because they want to experience literature with the pacing it had 70 years ago, which isn't inferior to ours in any way, it was just conforming to how the media were distributed at the time.

Generally I think there's nothing strange in not liking old literature, since modern society changes drastically in temperament; we find these works distant and incompatible with how we think now. When reading a classic, it's important to approach it from a historical point of view. That's why "timeless" classics often adress simple, quintessential human themes that tend not to change much over the centuries, but complex works like Tolkien (or the Bible if we go to the extreme) are rightfully seen as alien gibberish by many.

 

[Imat]

I'm a pretty big fan of fantasy yet I hate the Lord of the Rings books and most of Tolkien's other books. To many of my friends who are also fantasy fans this is like blaspheme and I have on quite a few occasions had to defend my opinion in heated argument form.

My problem with Tolkien is I feel that he draws things out, especially descriptions. Also he has gone so in much detail that it kind of ruins the experience for me. It's one thing to develop you're world but there is such a thing as over developing it. It makes it so the reader is less involved in the telling of the story, you can't even think about what the rock looks because he has already spent half a page describing it.

How do you feel about Tolkien? What other writers do you feel are overrated and why?

Edit: I'm not refuting Tolkien's contribution to fantasy as a genre In fact I have admitted that he was a major influence to many of the best authors of our time.

Wheel of Time can be far more descriptive at times, and it has been called better than LotR. Although I personally enjoyed every book, if only for a select few characters (And the Aiel.).

We all have our dislikes, but you still should acknowledge major figures. Tolkien was practically the father of modern fantasy stories, just like how Shakespeare was for theatre or Freud was for psychology. You may think their works are crap, but you can't deny their influence.

This. You ever listen to, say, the Beatles and wonder what made them so popular? Influence. They changed things in music forever. That's what Tolkien did for the fantasy genre. Watch Yahtzee's "Dragon Age: Origins" review. Most of the things you associate with fantasy races was created by Tolkien.

I actually like the Beatles for their music, but influence was a big part once most people realized they also liked the music.

 

[Toaster Hunter]

If you don't like him, that's your personal preference and you are entitled to that. That beings said, he is the father of modern fantasy and influenced the entire genre. A lot of people find him cliched, but that's because they read the spin-offs of his work before his own.

 

[UberNoodle]

Honestly, the words "over rated" are the worst ones to become popular in recent years. There's no way to rate this kind of stuff. The words imply some kind of objective measurement which is impossible to do. Either that, or it implies that the speaker considers themselves the yard stick for which things should be measured. If you don't like the books, fair enough. We all have different tastes. Are the books over rated? Show me the results of the world wide survey. Over rated is supposed to be for things emperically rated, such as machine parts or something like that.

 

[coldfrog]

Tolkien is a master of world-building. I have yet to see any other author in any other genre able to create a world with as much detail and history and cohesion as Tolkien has -- that means the world itself, the races inhabiting it, the rules that govern their world, wars and kingdoms, etc. That alone merits him quite a bit of accolade.

If you're into that kind of thing, I can't recommend highly enough the "Malazan Book of the Fallen" series by Stephen Erikson. The world he creates is enormous, ancient, and detailed in ways that are near unbelievable - not to mention that he has done a rare feat of creating a very unique and interesting system of magic use.

 

[stinkypitz]

If not for Tolkien this site probably wouldn't exist.