Total Biscuit vs the Jimquisition

[Ninmecu]

The gist of what I'm getting is that the games industry has tried diddling itself with a small object in a rather uncomfortable place and has managed to get it lodged there, requiring surgery to repair itself and get to a better place...Only it's either too lazy or too incompetent to go forward and get said surgery done.

In a less gross way of putting it, they created a system that actively shoots them in the knees but then expects the consumers to feel sorry for their stupidity because they shot themselves in the knees? You can't blame consumer tactics-nor can you blame retailers. Everyone is out to do two things. Make Money and Make the most of My/Their/Our Money. That's why the whole debate makes me laugh like a maniac when it comes up to the surface again. You can't expect consumers in this day and age to simply bend over and yell "Take me Master(s), I'm yours to use and abuse". You can expect a certain degree of people to enjoy a good hard beat down by the big Corporations because they have money coming out of their pores or have more bucks than brains. But I'd wager the average consumer is getting more informed at a faster rate because of the widespread and wealth of information being available to us.

Speaking as a man who grew up in poverty and is facing years of education to land a job in a diverse and competetive field simply so that my children and my children's children don't have to suffer like I did, why in the hell would I pay full price for anything if I can get the same exact item somewhere else, for less. The only exceptions being when I'm genuinely interested in or impressed by a product. I last bought brand new at launch with Mists of Pandaria, prior to that, Saint's Row the Third(To my regret, only game I've ever returned, to which I say thank the gods for that at least, I got Just Cause 2, a far more entertaining game.) If I find a used copy of a game that seems interesting, I'll buy it, I honestly can't in good health and stable mind accept a 60 dollar investment when that amounts to 1/10th of my monthly worth after rent, not even counting food and utilities. The Used Games Market is a necessary "evil", love it or hate it you'd be turning a pretty big chunk of the gamers market away from the hobby forever, shooting your future in the knee just like you're doing in the present.

OT however, neither Jim nor TB are right, neither of them are wrong. If Jim is to be believed on the share retailers get from new game sales, I can't blame them for not wanting to push new. If it hurts the industry then go back to your roots, make amazing experiences that span hours of gameplay with a variety of things to do, to see and to learn from. Stop sticking us short with these half ass games that look pretty but will never stand the test of time.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

The gist of what I'm getting is that the games industry has tried diddling itself with a small object in a rather uncomfortable place and has managed to get it lodged there, requiring surgery to repair itself and get to a better place...Only it's either too lazy or too incompetent to go forward and get said surgery done.

I'd characterize it more as publishers and retailers engaged in a power struggle to control the revenue stream, with the consumer being the ultimate loser, personally.

 

[Gatx]

While I like having physical copies of games, I'm looking forward to digital gaming distributors like Steam and Good Old Games getting bigger and bigger, because it creates more competition, and forces the retailers to act differently. As for publishers, well, I suppose only us gamers can really do much to keep them in check, by not buying their crap.

Sadly I don't think it's in our hands, which, come to think of it, might be why Microsoft didn't focus on gamers at all in their reveal. Maybe they knew gamers would be unhappy about the used games thing and are instead counting on people who like TV and sports, with maybe a little CoD and Madden here and there, to pick up the slack in sales.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

Total Biscuit is just wrong. First of all, not everyone can afford all the new games at retail price. And not everywhere is used games price just $10 lower than the new one. I bought half of my PS3 games used for $30. And I liked some of them enough to want to buy the next one as soon as it comes out. That's what's so great about used games. You buy them at a cheaper price and if you end up liking it you may consider buying the sequel as soon as it's out. Without the ability to buy used games I think I'll just wait for the price to drop and I'll be a lot more careful with my purchases. Or I may not even use a console anymore. I am primarily a PC gamer as it is, and I mostly buy lots of games during Steam sales.

 

[Eve Charm]

Steam has one thing that MS and Sony won't when they do away with used game sales, Competition. Steam as GOG, Desura, Green man gaming, amazon selling steam codes, the devs themselves selling steam codes and finally you have things like humble, indie royal, gala and such selling the games dirt cheap also. Even given the choice at least MS said they don't want the Competition when they can have a monopoly not supporting indies and letting them self publish.

While we are seeing this now since the current consoles basically announced were done once they announced the new ones, A few months ago, Bad games were coming out still full price. It's not like they didn't know Aliens CM and star trek were Horrid games, Review embargo and all but still 60 dollars for games not worth anywhere near the price. 5-10 games coming out a week against maybe one or two if were lucky? ya steam needs to do sales, some games need to do sales. You can be a cheap PC gamer but you can't be a cheap Console gamer. Devs and Publishers can just as easily say " here's 10 bucks off if you preordered our physical copy" as much as digital.

Lets not forget Publishers and Devs made their monster. Eb, funcoland, baggage. software ect and what not weren't all Gamestop, They failed and merged into one company, or failed and died off. You can't make money selling and stocking all the hottest and even niche titles and make a profit JUST with new. You can't make enough to pay the workers and pay the rent, and you obviously can't charge more for the product or you won't get any business. Used is a Risky business and with even the big powerhouse gamestop shutting down stores you can see it isn't as profitable as they'd like you to believe. Risky is better then giving up though and that's why Best buy and toys 'r' us have been trying it out.

 

[StrangerQ]

I find that we as the consumers stand in the bland grey area, covered in meat and surrounded by bears and bear size wolves.

 

[BrotherRool]

I understand both sides of the argument, I come down in favour of Jim's view though.
It works on PC because Microsoft has a fairly hands off approach and hasn't done anything to restrict digital distribution so we have competition.

^This is probably the answer. There's competition on a PC so if Steam doesn't sell particularly old games cheaply, GoG will sell them instead and Steam can match the price or lose sales. That can't happen on a console so we need some other market keeping them honest

 

[IllumInaTIma]

I do believe that both Jim and John have valid points, and, essentially, both of them are speculating since they don't have strong statistical proof. However, Jim is not trying to be a complete asshole about it! Now, I love TB, I love his videos and I often agree with him, but the way he behaved on Twitter and in his video was akin to some kid plugging his ears and screaming "LALALA! YOU ARE MORONS I CAN'T HEAR YOU! LALALA!". He then proceeded to copy responses given to him on Twitter and boasting about number of subscribers lost and earned like it was some kind of dick measuring contest. Not classy. So, yeah, thank God for Jim.

 

[Negatempest]

I'll copy and paste here what I put down else where.

Because a person doesn't need to hear a hate speech from a Neo-Nazi to know that most of what he says is BS?

Point being that just because we don't hear the thousands of "points" of why something is bad, does not make it bad. Here is some strong points for used games that us easily over-looked. Steam does actually have competition if you noticed sites like GoG that have no DRM in it. Competition on sales tends to breed good sales. Microsoft has an extremely poor history of doing something for the benefit of the customer. So don't believe for a second that the "Poor Developers" speech they give isn't to hide the fact that they want more money and monopolize the market...again. Used games is a necessary evil like the Union. It's not perfect and the developers may or may not lose money. But that keeps Publishers like Microsoft from controlling how, when and under what condition a game can be played.

 

[Holythirteen]

I wish I could watch a debate between these two, maybe give them a couple nerf bats if there's a tie...

I gotta side with Jim here though, I mean, I totally agreed with TB, he thinks devs should get more money for their work (they made the damn game after all), while Jim thinks Gamestop should get more than $2-5 for every sold game(not sure how any business could survive on that). But let's face it, the PC game market is a different animal than the console game market. PC games were already cheaper when they married the pass-key online activation system. If we give console game publishers the same control over their games I highly doubt they would lower prices. With them it's a one-way street, you can't go through steam or GOG or the devs themselves, they want it all because they spent millions on advertising.

Meh, its hard to take TotalBiscuit seriously on this issue when right at the start of the video he says something to the effect of "not sure why console gamers care what I think they aren't an audience I care about", he makes it sound like he's written off the console market but that doesn't stop him from going on for half an hour about why the pc market is so much better.

I don't think any families will starve to death if consoles suffer a massive consumer backlash, in fact, I think publishers need a wake up call to help them understand exactly why the market works the way it does. They did a fair job at building up the video game industry and inspiring customer loyalty over the past 30 years, but they seem to think that entitles them to a free ride.

Edit:

server costs, relates to that DLC thing. You know what's good for any online game? An active community. You know what online passes kill?

I interpreted his comments more like: "the number of games being played online may be the same but the publisher didn't expect people to play multiplayer so much and it was because buyers were selling the games back, what jerks" and I'm thinking: "So they knew it was a crap mode that offered no real replay value and they're upset that the consumer realized this and sold it to some other schmuck? Good argument."

 

[The AmeriCanadian Gamer]

It is nice to hear the view from the other side, but as much as I love TB a lot of his arguments don't hold much water imo. But this is the way I see used games. - They are going to disappear. Whether we like it or not. One day physical copies will no longer exist and the used games market will fall into obscurity. What I don't like is how used games are viewed. As this malevolent entity that wants to take all the monies and roll around in them. Maybe devs/publishers should adapt to the market rather than attacking it.

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

my take on it.

my son, his main supply of games is; used old games (£10 range he gets with pocket money) Christmas/birthdays new games as gifts.

People who regularly sell their games; put that money straight back into their next gaming purchase as they purchase regularly.

then the 3rd demographic is the people who are just selling their old stuff to make money.

take used games out the equation; whats the point of my son getting a console for maybe 5 or 6 maybe games a year max? (and he wont be the only child in a similar situation)
Mr/Miss regular games purchaser now has to find that cash elsewhere while games they dont play anymore gather dust.

how people can not see this having a negative effect on sales, is beyond me.
the publishers are going to be shifting less units, so the loss will be passed on to the gamer to recoup
(dont know who believed they would see any savings passed down to them from the publisher if the publisher did make more money from thsi idea. whoever you are, please donate me some of your optimism)

 

[Gmans uncle]

As a longtime fan of both TB and Jim, I think both their arguments are valid in their own rights and that anyone who legitimately cares about the used games market should give both of them a listen to see two, both valid, perspectives on a complex issue.
Personally I'm leaning towards Jim on this one in the short term 'cause I don't think publishers are really ready for the market dominance that would come from removing used games from the equation just yet, however I agree with TB 100% when he says that the way video games are monetized is fundamentally different then the way other forms of media are, and I agree that this whole thing will be rendered moot once we go all digital, which I have no doubt IS going to happen within the next 10 years. I used to be worried about the preservation of video games for the future, but perhaps that's best done through digital means as well.

I respect both of these men allot, and I think they both have valid viewpoints on the subject, watch both and form your own consensus, that's what I say anyway.

 

[Scott Rothman]

There is wear and tear though. I frequently spring for the new copy so that I don't have the bullshit sticker, missing manual, and sticky case.

 

[Sir Christopher McFarlane]

Jim explained, although I don't know whether I believe it, that retailers push used games because publishers only allow them to profit minimally from new sales. that would indeed be a great reason to push used games.

 

[Arslan Aladeen]

How come one of the big anti-used arguments always involves talking about how evil gamestop is, as if it's the only place to deal in used games? What happened to eBay, amazon, or just plain selling straight to a friend?