Music is not the same thing at all. That is a form or expression and is open to free form enhancements. Good or bad story telling is not. You can be creative, but the basics of a story (setting, characterization, plot, etc.) all has to be intact for it to be told properly. You can change the when/how/why of those elements, but it has to form a cohesive story unit, regardless. It's not pretentious, it's the facts. I never said it was bad, but I did give an exact reason as to why that poster was confused.Vrach said:You probably wouldn't see much respect for hip hop, rap, metal and stuff like that at a music academy from the professors either, it doesn't make them any less legitimate forms of music or art, so excuse me if I call pretentious bullshit on that argument as a whole.Baresark said:snipVrach said:snipBaresark said:snipVrach said:snip
And you know what, yeah that is the intro cinematic. But that kinda sinks your whole previous argument of "oh so it'll be explained later in a game no one has played yet?", doesn't it? If it's a part of the story, why is it necessary that every single piece of the story is 110% apparent right there on the spot? If it's a part of the story, can't another part explain it? And if so, by what rule would that be inferior storytelling? Is Memento a shit movie cause it takes you going through nearly the whole thing to understand what the fuck's going on at the start?
Trinity's always gonna be there because the players are gonna gravitate towards that. TOR is actually slated to loosen up the trinity quite a bit - you should look into it, from all footage so far we've seen healers DPS, DPS throw heals out etc. But it's the players who will always want the most out of their character and focus is well... focus and the multiplayer aspect divides you into tank/DPS/healer.fundayz said:I have a problem with static combat, formulaic skill rotations, a hard trinity, content lockouts, etc. These are all things that BioWare believes are FUNDAMENTAL to MMO's when nothing is farther from the truth.
As you said yourself, TOR has the Star Wars IP. It's gonna keep it alive and keep it alive for long. Rift has nothing other than dynamic content (which is no laughing matter, but GW2 will do it better from what I see) to differentiate it from WoW. Not the case with TOR, it will have enough to set it apart and keep the players coming.fundayz said:Yes, lack of polish and content are why main recent MMO have fell flat on their faces but polish won't guarantee you a blockbuster(which is EA thinks SWTOR will be)...not any more, not after WoW. Even Rift players admit that the game is basically a WoW clone and many people are already getting bored of it or gone back to WoW.
Will SWTOR fail because of this? I doubt it, specially with the Star Wars and BW logos on the box, but it will definitely hurt it's lifespan which is very bad for a long term investment such as an MMO.
I won't argue over what someone else said cause honestly, neither of us can know for sure without asking for clarification. I see your point, I do. I see your overall point even. But I also see the wisdom in the approach they're taking (to a certain level at least) because of the unique situation the MMO market is in. I'd rather have a Battlefield than a Brink. Is it more like the main competitor? Sure. But it works and it's still a bundle of fun and any loosening of the main competitor's grip is a good thing.fundayz said:Also, Greg Z was NOT just talking about game features, he was talking about all gameplay elements. That is, he believes that if you don't follow WoW's template for character progression, gear acquisition, questing, dungeon lockouts, etc your game will fail.
It's not that big of a selling point for them though, they don't talk about it too much. It's there yes and they're proud of it (and deserve to be imo), but it's not like they're shouting it from the rooftops. On the combat scene, that's what sets them apart - although let's be honest, neither of us has played the game enough to see for ourselves. From what I hear the game is a lot more loose on some aspects you're talking about than WoW (in a good way). But we'll both have to sit and wait until it comes out for real or at least until open beta hits.fundayz said:All I'm trying to say is that having animations be your second biggest selling point does not inspire much confidence of the actual gameplay.
That bit about longer talking I actually really like. Love them or hate them you have to admit they hit a nail right on the head: the way quests are usually handed out is retarded. I always read the little story that comes with them so I at least know WHY I have to go kill 6 gnolls but even then it's a shallow and uninvolving affair.RT-Medic-with-shotgun said:Same stuff as WoW but you have to talk to the quest giver longer than normally. At least they got combat speed proper this time(i think).
Are you saying music doesn't have rules or parameters? Cause.. you'd be sorely wrong on that. My point is that the opinion of a couple of old stooges (regardless of their intelligence and knowledge over a field, which are not in question) does not define the validity of a genre. It's pretentious to say "science fiction is not real fiction", the same way it's pretentious to say "games are not art" because you feel your own medium is superior. At least that's my view on it, I don't mean any disrespect to your professors, merely saying, people, all people are prone to not accepting newer forms of something, especially within their own field of interest/expertise where they feel they have the upper hand and even more so in a well established medium like literature (sci fi is what, less than a century old?).Baresark said:Music is not the same thing at all. That is a form or expression and is open to free form enhancements. Good or bad story telling is not. You can be creative, but the basics of a story (setting, characterization, plot, etc.) all has to be intact for it to be told properly. You can change the when/how/why of those elements, but it has to form a cohesive story unit, regardless. It's not pretentious, it's the facts. I never said it was bad, but I did give an exact reason as to why that poster was confused.
No, my logic is that if that's the intro cinematic, it doesn't need to explain a damn thing. It'll be done in the following experience, which is the game. It's not separate, it's a whole. You're seemingly talking from a literary point of view. But a game has more than one tool at their disposal to tell a story, it can use text, audio files, video files, third party dialogue, interactive means etc.Baresark said:It doesn't sink my argument at all. Basically, they should have just kept going and not stopped showing at that point then, by your logic. They picked a definitive place to stop the story. It solves the problem if they stopped prior to that one scene, which has gotten the better of at least one person on these forums.
I originally said the poster, pages back, was confused because he doesn't know the story or motivation behind the final scene in the trailer. I simply stated that he would have been less confused if they hadn't put that in there. And I said why he was confused and I also pointed out elements of the trailer and why they were not as confusing for the poster of that comment. Like it or not, and I'm not saying the people who made the cinematic were thinking this, because clearly they were not, that final scene created confusion. It's fine that it's a part of a much larger story, but it was extraneous and confusing for the laymen, like it or not.Vrach said:Are you saying music doesn't have rules or parameters? Cause.. you'd be sorely wrong on that. My point is that the opinion of a couple of old stooges (regardless of their intelligence and knowledge over a field, which are not in question) does not define the validity of a genre. It's pretentious to say "science fiction is not real fiction", the same way it's pretentious to say "games are not art" because you feel your own medium is superior. At least that's my view on it, I don't mean any disrespect to your professors, merely saying, people, all people are prone to not accepting newer forms of something, especially within their own field of interest/expertise where they feel they have the upper hand and even more so in a well established medium like literature (sci fi is what, less than a century old?).Baresark said:snip
No, my logic is that if that's the intro cinematic, it doesn't need to explain a damn thing. It'll be done in the following experience, which is the game. It's not separate, it's a whole. You're seemingly talking from a literary point of view. But a game has more than one tool at their disposal to tell a story, it can use text, audio files, video files, third party dialogue, interactive means etc.Baresark said:snip
An intro cinematic is a part of the game, a part of the story, you've argued as much yourself. But it's not the WHOLE story and the parts unclear to you will be explained in the later points of it - which is and has always been a perfectly valid way to handle the story, regardless of the medium or genre and you can find such execution in the works of other brilliant artists if that's your confirmation.
It's animations are not it's second biggest selling point. From what I've seen they're selling points are:fundayz said:There's no denying SWTOR has a lot of animation variety but that's the thing, you are talking about regular animations not choreographed combat. In fact, VERY few non-lightsaber skills make use of choreographed combat.Ukomba said:That's true if you're just talking about your basic attacks fighting against a ranged enemy also only using basic attacks. There are so many other skills out there that it's not true at all when you're talking about other skills. Bounty hunters jet packing around, agents and smugglers popping in and out of combat, stealthing, lightsabers flying. From the demo's I've played there's an amazing amount of variability in combat between classes and within classes.
All I'm trying to say is that having animations be your second biggest selling point does not inspire much confidence of the actual gameplay.
Yeah I get what you're saying, but I don't accept that one person being confused by something millions get is a problem and again, he's only confused cause he's seeing that trailer now. Right now - at this point in time - that trailer is a trailer. It's purpose is to whet your taste and make you wonder. When the game comes out, it's gonna be a part of a larger story that's gonna explain what has this one person confused and explain it rather well.Baresark said:I originally said the poster, pages back, was confused because he doesn't know the story or motivation behind the final scene in the trailer. I simply stated that he would have been less confused if they hadn't put that in there. And I said why he was confused and I also pointed out elements of the trailer and why they were not as confusing for the poster of that comment. Like it or not, and I'm not saying the people who made the cinematic were thinking this, because clearly they were not, that final scene created confusion. It's fine that it's a part of a much larger story, but it was extraneous and confusing for the laymen, like it or not.
"Old Stooges" say it's not a valid form of literature because only a handful of Science Fiction/ Fantasy writers have actually told a story based off of more than lasers and swords and space and dragons. These elements, while all very interesting, cannot make a story without all the rest of the proper elements, and many many don't even try. If you look at authors such as Arthur C Clark and Neil Gaiman (to name a modern counterpart), they do a beautiful job at putting together these elements. These are the people that literary professors should be looking at, but they do not. They don't get past the dragons and wizards, which really sucks. I spent a good portion of my college writing career trying to convince my professors that they need to look at it more objectively. I also meant simply that you cannot win them over by defending a point that is really indefensible. My buddy was writing some Star Wars fan fiction, and he kept defending his writings (which wasn't bad a whole, but could have been significantly better) bad points. He wrote a story about a Jedi who was a character that was mentioned in previous Star Wars books, but never actually written about. Well, he wrote 70 pages of a character that read like "insert anonymous Jedi". While is work was better than anything George Lucas could have done, it wasn't good in a literary respect. I am not offering my "expert" opinion on why this trailer could be better, I am simply saying that it was confusing to "Joe Schmoe" because of X,Y, and Z.
I can't help but feel that, as a whole, the genre would benefit from authors that didn't just tell a cool story, but told a cool story well. A melding of old and new. Like, some of the literary classics, such as the Great Gatsby, tell a story well, but it's kind of a boring story.
Like I said, I acknowledge that they have to say that stuff for those not in the know, it's just a pet peeve.Kragg said:youll never be happy will you
wanna bet there would be people complaining if they didnt do that?
i guess they wanna attract new people to the MMO genre aswell, star wars fans, kids that like the clone wars series. Also what i read from Activision Blizzard that was what they were happy about, more people in the MMO market (seems like a pat on the back for Bioware-Lucas-EA, but ofc just means "when your MMO fails they might come to us")
Agreed.fundayz said:The "traditional" combat system used in EQ, DAoC, WoW, WAR, etc is getting boring.
First of all, full voice over is part of the better storytelling just like choreographed animations is part of the "heroic" combat so you can't count it as a separate selling point. Secondly, the Star Wars IP is a selling point but we're talking about the gameplay selling points, not something as superfluous as the IP being used.Ukomba said:It's animations are not it's second biggest selling point. From what I've seen they're selling points are:
1. Story.
2. It's Star Wars.
3. Fully voiced.
4. Heroic combat
- a. Taking on groups single handed.
- b. Interesting questing with limited grind.
- c. Choreographed Animations.
I've tried the game and it feels different than WoW, but veteran MMOer's won't have much trouble picking it up.
This is what is wrong with the genre. Developers and players such as yourself believe that they way we do features right now is the only way to do them when this is simply not true.Ukomba said:I put combat at 4th because mmo combat is all rather similar.
Baresark said:That's awesome. Unable to come up with a good argument, you resort to insults. Way to go, Champ!Saltyk said:You're a dumbass. You should read back before you comment. You wouldn't have wasted so much time typing. But to make you happy: That is quite incorrect, as a whole I liked the trailer. I am not finding "reasons" to dislike anything. It's not my fault you are a complete fanboy and can't stand the fact that someone doesn't like something as much as you do. If you put your terribly emotional outburst to the side for one second, you might actually see what I'm actually talking about. Was it extraneous? Yes. It's fine as a nod to the fans, but the guy clearly thought what he though, which is where the breakdown is occurring.Baresark said:So should a trailer for a game have a 3 page background crawl before the trailer? One that explains that you are watching a Star Wars game trailer and THIS is the background? Being a Star Wars cinematic, they could probably do the classic Star Wars crawl and get away with it. Or they could just show a whole trailer and assume that if you're watching it, you have at least heard of Star Wars. Sorry, but your argument is terribly flawed. And frankly, your bias is showing.Vrach said:snip
And why would they leave the part of the Sith killing his master out? If the person viewing this trailer knows anything about Star Wars and the Sith, they would call BS on that. That's just part of the Sith culture. They kill the weak or pathetic. And an apprentice is almost always looking to surpass his master. Read/watch some of the game's background information on the site. A recent background story explains how the Sith Empire almost conquered the Republic, but failed largely due to the Sith Emperor's apprentice trying to kill him during a huge battle. At the very least, it shows the layman that the Sith are the "evil" ones.
Personally, I'm convinced that no matter what was in this trailer, you'd complain. If they supplied us with background information, you'd say there was no need for it, and it was boring. If the Sith didn't kill the wounded master, you'd say they don't understand how the Sith actually operate. The truth is, this was an awesome video. The Jedi Master kicked ass. The "space cowboy" (smuggler) kicked ass. And the Sith kicked ass.
My argument is drawn from knowing how good or bad storytelling is presented. Yes, it's a trailer. Yes, if the guy plans on playing the game he is more than likely to find out exactly why the apprentice did that. But, that isn't the substance of the conversation. The fact is, the trailer would not have been different in anyway if the the guy didn't kill his master.
So, you're an expert in story telling? Are you aware that this trailer is a part of the story? The Sith, named Malgus, that kills his master is a part of the larger story. He also appears in the other two trailers for the game. You could argue that these trailers are his story. Changing how he kills his master would not only alter the later story, but his journey (on top of being contrary to the Sith way). In fact, this trailer is not just the beginning of the conflict, but the very first thing the player sees upon starting the game. Besides, like I said earlier, killing his master at least shows the layman that the Sith are the evil ones. And the fact is, the entire story would not be the same if Malgus didn't kill his master.
Saltyk said:First off, I apologize for calling you that. No one seems to get what I am actually saying though, and it is a bit frustrating. I simply pointed out the part that caused the confusion and said that it would have been better without that scene. And I said that it was a poor part to end the trailer on, because it caused some confusion.Baresark said:Saltyk said:snipBaresark said:snipVrach said:snip
That's awesome. Unable to come up with a good argument, you resort to insults. Way to go, Champ!
So, you're an expert in story telling? Are you aware that this trailer is a part of the story? The Sith, named Malgus, that kills his master is a part of the larger story. He also appears in the other two trailers for the game. You could argue that these trailers are his story. Changing how he kills his master would not only alter the later story, but his journey (on top of being contrary to the Sith way). In fact, this trailer is not just the beginning of the conflict, but the very first thing the player sees upon starting the game. Besides, like I said earlier, killing his master at least shows the layman that the Sith are the evil ones. And the fact is, the entire story would not be the same if Malgus didn't kill his master.
My pretentious nature aside, this is just reality. I am aware of that the cinematic is part of the game, and it's also not a trailer at all. But something in game. I didn't say it was horrible, or that I hated it. So you people can just slow your role on this. Get over it. I know you love, hell, I love it to.
But, I'm not the one having a problem with this. I think the trailer was good, if not a bit derivative and too similar to all the others with the exception of bounty hunter.
Final thought: the trailer ended in a spot that caused confusion for someone. Not everyone, but if one person didn't really understand, there is a chance that others had a similar issue. Star Wars has never been written all the well with the exception of a few authors anyway (Karen Traviss and Timothy Zahn). I'm over it to be honest with you.
Baresark said:Damn, I was all ready to get into a flame war with ya. Thanks for nothing!Saltyk said:First off, I apologize for calling you that. No one seems to get what I am actually saying though, and it is a bit frustrating. I simply pointed out the part that caused the confusion and said that it would have been better without that scene. And I said that it was a poor part to end the trailer on, because it caused some confusion.Baresark said:Saltyk said:snipBaresark said:snipVrach said:snip
That's awesome. Unable to come up with a good argument, you resort to insults. Way to go, Champ!
So, you're an expert in story telling? Are you aware that this trailer is a part of the story? The Sith, named Malgus, that kills his master is a part of the larger story. He also appears in the other two trailers for the game. You could argue that these trailers are his story. Changing how he kills his master would not only alter the later story, but his journey (on top of being contrary to the Sith way). In fact, this trailer is not just the beginning of the conflict, but the very first thing the player sees upon starting the game. Besides, like I said earlier, killing his master at least shows the layman that the Sith are the evil ones. And the fact is, the entire story would not be the same if Malgus didn't kill his master.
My pretentious nature aside, this is just reality. I am aware of that the cinematic is part of the game, and it's also not a trailer at all. But something in game. I didn't say it was horrible, or that I hated it. So you people can just slow your role on this. Get over it. I know you love, hell, I love it to.
But, I'm not the one having a problem with this. I think the trailer was good, if not a bit derivative and too similar to all the others with the exception of bounty hunter.
Final thought: the trailer ended in a spot that caused confusion for someone. Not everyone, but if one person didn't really understand, there is a chance that others had a similar issue. Star Wars has never been written all the well with the exception of a few authors anyway (Karen Traviss and Timothy Zahn). I'm over it to be honest with you.
No worries. I'm not that easily upset. I just really, really hate when people resort to insults rather than arguing the merits of the case (something that seems way too common nowadays, and not just on the internet). But you apologized and that's all that matters. I appreciate that. Thank you.
I can see how this trailer alone could be confusing. Especially without any knowledge of the universe. But, taken with the others, it does tell a story. And let's face facts, no trailer for a game, movie, or anything else is going to give all the answers. It's intention is to make the viewer want to know more. Anyone questioning what was going on, could simply look up the background information on any number of sites, including, but not limited to, the official site.
Anyway, good talking to ya. Maybe I'll see ya on the game.