Transgender question

[Signa]

Let me rephrase this then, when someone tells you that they feel with absolute conviction that they are not as they appear before you, why are there lines that can be crossed on what is acceptable/believable for their assertion?

I'm not ever going to make a mistake over whether someone is a wolf or a human.

No, why would you? But if you saw someone claiming to be a wolf, are they a wolf? If you see a man claiming to be a woman, is he a woman? Neither have the physical appearance of what they say they are.

Once again, why is that concept unequal?

At that point it's just a matter of being able to make the distinction between the physical (sex) and the identity (gender). Sex is what you are physically, gender is how you identify based on how you feel you fit into cultural norms of gender, they are two completely different things.

What gender is itself is a long answer i probably can't do justice explaining.

Can you explain why transgendered people and otherkin are unequal? Everyone is dodging this question.

I don't have any beef with otherkin. I'm fine with saying they're equal. Everyone has the right to identify as they wish.

Ok, but why are they equal then? I want rationalized explanations, not summary opinions.

 

[Signa]

No, why would you? But if you saw someone claiming to be a wolf, are they a wolf?

Again, I can easily and obviously tell if a person is human or a wolf, because those terms are fairly clearly defined in ways that are visible at a glance. This is not the same with male and female, because these terms are ill-defined with no clear line between them.

If you see a man

How do I know they are a man? They happen to look stereotypical male, have short hair and wear masculine looking clothes?

This question has little to do with what they look like. I've been told that a transgendered person basically is the gender they feel they are, and surgery to change their sex is more corrective than just a form of expression of their feelings. So if they look like a man, they probably are a man, but if that man told you he felt he was a woman, does it make it that he's truly a woman? I've been told yes. Now if that same man said he was a wolf, we all probably would laugh at him. Why?

 

[GoodOmens]

I'm just wondering what the driving motivation behind switching genders is.
Not because I'm judging, simply because I don't understand.

Is it the desire to conform with the other gender's social norms? Is it a rejection of the role traditionally assigned to your sex?

Like, I'm a guy, but I'm not a man's man. I do a lot of things traditionally associated with women. But I don't want to be a woman. I'm not sure I explicitely want to be a man either.
And I'm not implying that I'm the norm. I'm just genuinely curious what triggers the desire to go the next step(s).

EDITED the bold part to emphasize where my question is actually coming from.

(For sake of context, I'm a cis male.) I think you're looking at it the wrong way. A person who identifies as trans (not counting those who embrace it as a fad, which there are some) isn't necessarily interested in going against societal gender norms, though that may be the case independently of the transsexual personality. You say, for example, that you're not a "man's man." But you identify yourself as a man, just one who doesn't fit male societal gender norms. That's not trans. It would be different if you thought of yourself not as "not a man's man" but "not a man." If you saw yourself, your essential identity, as female. That's it. A lack of interest in the traditional gender roles may or may not accompany that.

I'm not entirely positive that a cis person can truly understand how a trans person thinks and feels, not because there's something inhuman about it but rather that gender strikes so deep into our psyche.

 

[Signa]

Let me rephrase this then, when someone tells you that they feel with absolute conviction that they are not as they appear before you, why are there lines that can be crossed on what is acceptable/believable for their assertion?

I'm not ever going to make a mistake over whether someone is a wolf or a human.

No, why would you? But if you saw someone claiming to be a wolf, are they a wolf? If you see a man claiming to be a woman, is he a woman? Neither have the physical appearance of what they say they are.

Once again, why is that concept unequal?

At that point it's just a matter of being able to make the distinction between the physical (sex) and the identity (gender). Sex is what you are physically, gender is how you identify based on how you feel you fit into cultural norms of gender, they are two completely different things.

What gender is itself is a long answer i probably can't do justice explaining.

Can you explain why transgendered people and otherkin are unequal? Everyone is dodging this question.

I don't have any beef with otherkin. I'm fine with saying they're equal. Everyone has the right to identify as they wish.

Ok, but why are they equal then? I want rationalized explanations, not summary opinions.

Why are they equal? Weird question, i'm kinda going by the logic that everyone is equal until i'm given some reason to believe they aren't. I don't see a reason the different identities would make otherkin/transgender identities superior or inferior to each other. Maybe i'm not understanding what you're trying to ask.

No no, that's fine. That explains why you feel that way and I am satisfied with your reply. So next question: in the public eye, a transgendered person and an otherkin will get different reactions to how they explain themselves to others. Who would the public be more unfair to in your opinion?

 

[Signa]

snip

Do you see the distinction?

Not. At. All. I mean, I get what you're trying to say, but it doesn't mesh with conventional language at all. It sounds like you're drawing lines that are only going to confuse people. Male and man are the same word to me. I only choose one over the other because of how English requires me to.

I still have not got a straight answer from you why otherkin are equal or unequal to transgendered people. I'm not looking for how you'd identify them, but the difference in how they identify themselves.Oops, I thought I was talking to someone else. Sorry. Tired.


@everyone

Before I get a huge quote storm, please be aware that it's 4am, and this is my brain trying to rationalize a thought exercise on social politics and not an attack on a specific group. I'm genuinely curious about how people think of these things. God, I know I'm going to wake up tomorrow and be quoted like 12 times.

 

[Thaluikhain]

So if they look like a man, they probably are a man, but if that man told you he felt he was a woman, does it make it that he's truly a woman?

You've jumped from "look like a man" to "man". If a person that looks to me like a man tells me they are a woman, why should I not believe them? People get that sort of thing wrong all the time.

If, for example, I was to bump into Tilda Swinton, who is a British actress and cis woman that often gets mistaken for a man, and I thought she was a man and she told me otherwise, what should I do? Insist that she is a man, because she looked like one to me?

Now if that same man said he was a wolf, we all probably would laugh at him. Why?

A person that looks like a man (and can talk to me) is never, ever going to turn out to be a wolf under any circumstances.

 

[zumbledum]

cisgendered

seen this phrase a few time lately im just curious what it refers to?

 

[RubyT]

Is there a "sex identity" underneath all the cultural roles imposed on us (including man and woman). And if so, what is it like?

Evidence is leading us to believe that the answer is yes. Here's just two studies to start with.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html
https://thecerebralcortex.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/a-look-at-transgender-brains/

Here's an enormous list of various studies:
http://aebrain.blogspot.com/p/transsexual-and-intersex-gender-identity.html

Ah, so it seems there is such a thing as a "female brain".

I understand it may be difficult, but can you tell me how your brain "articulated" that it felt it was assigned to the wrong body?

Where I'm coming from:
I've been fascinated (on a lazy, non-obsessive level) by gender since the Star Trek Enterprise episode "Cogenitor", where an alien race has a third biological sex. In the show, it was portrayed as somewhat andronygous, but female-leaning.Not very imaginative, I felt.
And I wondered, how a third sex of humans would manifest.

Once you begin to actually think about this, you quickly realize, that 99% of what people consider male/female is entirely cultural gender role, most of which is not even universal across the globe and/or across history.

And so I began to wonder what it is to be male or female.
If you look at nature, the only really distinguishing, consistent male behavioral pattern is aggression. But I find that limiting for a civilized species, when I think of Beethoven, Einstein or Nietzsche.

 

[Signa]

snip

Do you see the distinction?

Not. At. All. I mean, I get what you're trying to say, but it doesn't mesh with conventional language at all. It sounds like you're drawing lines that are only going to confuse people. Male and man are the same word to me. I only choose one over the other because of how English requires me to.

I still have not got a straight answer from you why otherkin are equal or unequal to transgendered people. I'm not looking for how you'd identify them, but the difference in how they identify themselves.


@everyone

Before I get a huge quote storm, please be aware that it's 4am, and this is my brain trying to rationalize a thought exercise on social politics and not an attack on a specific group. I'm genuinely curious about how people think of these things. God, I know I'm going to wake up tomorrow and be quoted like 12 times.

I thought you said you were satisfied with my answer. I don't care how people identify themselves unless there's something about that identity that somehow will certainly affect their behavior.

I don't mean to confuse people, I really am trying to keep all this as straightforward and sensible as possible, but as you said, maybe at 4am it's a lost cause. My brain doesn't run 100% at this time either.

On that note, goodnight. Sorry if i'm not making any sense.

My mistake. I thought you were thaluikhain when I posted that. You're cool.

 

[Thaluikhain]

cisgendered

seen this phrase a few time lately im just curious what it refers to?

Cisgender, as opposed to transgender.

By comparison, the Romans divided Gaul into Cisalpine Gaul (Gaul this side of the Alps), and Transalpine Gaul (Gaul the other side of the Alps). Switch Gaul for people, and the Alps for gender, and it's much the same thing.

 

[IMissedThatOne]

snip

Do you see the distinction?

Not. At. All. I mean, I get what you're trying to say, but it doesn't mesh with conventional language at all. It sounds like you're drawing lines that are only going to confuse people. Male and man are the same word to me. I only choose one over the other because of how English requires me to.

I still have not got a straight answer from you why otherkin are equal or unequal to transgendered people. I'm not looking for how you'd identify them, but the difference in how they identify themselves.


@everyone

Before I get a huge quote storm, please be aware that it's 4am, and this is my brain trying to rationalize a thought exercise on social politics and not an attack on a specific group. I'm genuinely curious about how people think of these things. God, I know I'm going to wake up tomorrow and be quoted like 12 times.

Sorry I tried to answer but the escapist somehow ate my post. I'll keep the post a lot shorter than the last one I typed. I think for most people there seems to be are more plausible (biological) explanation for transgender identities. We know of intersex conditions. We know that people sometimes develop atypically. That fetuses in the womb are exposed to both male and female hormones that atleast somewhat condition them. There has also been a lot of research in the field of Gender Identity and it's development. There is however almost no research in how a person can adopt an nonhuman identity. Nor are there any states in which a person as some kind of interspecies condition.
Here is a compressed version of the scientific history of GID: http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2005to2009/2006-atypical-gender-development.html


And some neurobiological insight into Gender Identity: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0070808#pone.0070808-Luders1

I hope that helps.

 

[Kathinka]

I'm cis myself, but I'm a student of medicine and wrote my doctorate about this stuff, so I can tell you a bit about it.

Time for some dry and boring science drop!

It isn't completely known or understood what causes it. It was used to be thought that hormonal exposure before birth or genetic components were responsible. However, this theory has been largely thrown out in recent years by twin studies. Genetics and hormonal exposure likely play some role, but the main cause is now thought to be psychological. An interesting thing occurs in the brains btw. While the brain of a transperson at birth and before transition is "normal", for a better word, after for example a biological male identifies and lives as a female for a time, their brain structure changes and after a while starts to take on some characteristics of the female brain. Initially, some studies figured that trans people just had the other genders brain because of that and were born with it. Later it was discovered that the change occurs later in live, like taxi drivers having the part of the brain responsible for orienting and pathfinding very pronounced, or violin players the part that deals with music. Hence why the currently most widely accepted theory is that the cause is mainly psychological. That doesn't make it any less real or serious of course, no matter what some backwards pay-the-gay-away type of people will tell you. There also seems to be a connection with body integrity identity disorder that isn't very well understood or researched yet. Some speculate that gender identity disorder is a form of BIID concerning the genitalia, pointing out the vastly bigger number of biologically male than female sufferers. However, to my knowledge that is just speculation and studies in that direction are yet to be conducted.
Aiding the afflicted poses a tricky situation. Sufferers who remain untreated suffer heavily, not seldomly being driven to suicide in absolutely alarming rates. The only measure current medicine can take are cosmetic and hormonal procedures that change the appearance closer to the desired state. However, this is a bit of a stop gap and depression and suicide still trouble many who have undergone successful change. Measures that treat the underlying problem would probably yield better results, but as of now there are absolutely none. Conventional therapy yields no good results and gender reassignment is currently the only halfway working option. Research in alternative directions only now started to be seriously conducted because for a long time it was stigmatized to attempt to "fix" gender integrity disorder, the same way that treating homosexuals as mentally ill was stigmatized. Lately that has changed a bit with humanity smartening up and realizing that there's nothing wrong with being homosexual and the only problems that homosexuals face in life are from the idiocy and intolerance of those around them. There's nothing wrong with being trans either, but it's a serious condition that requires intense medical treatment to enable the subject to live a healthy and happy life. So science has slowly started to look into alternative routes to benefit the patients and enable them to live happily with their body that don't require extensive surgery, unpredictable hormone supplements and very often loss of fertility. But a real solution or even an idea for one is still far in the future.

 

[Signa]

Sorry I tried to answer but the escapist somehow ate my post. I'll keep the post a lot shorter than the last one I typed. I think for most people there seems to be are more plausible (biological) explanation for transgender identities. We know of intersex conditions. We know that people sometimes develop atypically. That fetuses in the womb are exposed to both male and female hormones that atleast somewhat condition them. There has also been a lot of research in the field of Gender Identity and it's development. There is however almost no research in how a person can adopt an nonhuman identity. Nor are there any states in which a person as some kind of interspecies condition.
Here is a compressed version of the scientific history of GID: http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2005to2009/2006-atypical-gender-development.html


And some neurobiological insight into Gender Identity: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0070808#pone.0070808-Luders1

I hope that helps.

Thanks for that, but I'm not including those cases as part of my conversation. While they do exist, the conditions are extremely rare, and can't account for more than a few percent of the trans community. Maybe my assumption is way off and let's say 80% of the trans community provably are genetically atypical, what about that other 20%? I'm talking about those people. The existence of otherkin has proven that people can feel very strongly about their identity without it making a lick of sense to a 3rd party. Is that "20%" the same as otherkin, just with far less extreme views of their identity? Going back to Silentpony's suggestion on the first page, is therapy a better solution instead of surgery? No one seems willing to ask that in case it's offensive.