Transgender question

[RubyT]

Is there a "sex identity" underneath all the cultural roles imposed on us (including man and woman). And if so, what is it like?

Evidence is leading us to believe that the answer is yes. Here's just two studies to start with.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html
https://thecerebralcortex.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/a-look-at-transgender-brains/

Here's an enormous list of various studies:
http://aebrain.blogspot.com/p/transsexual-and-intersex-gender-identity.html

Ah, so it seems there is such a thing as a "female brain".

I understand it may be difficult, but can you tell me how your brain "articulated" that it felt it was assigned to the wrong body?

Where I'm coming from:
I've been fascinated (on a lazy, non-obsessive level) by gender since the Star Trek Enterprise episode "Cogenitor", where an alien race has a third biological sex. In the show, it was portrayed as somewhat andronygous, but female-leaning.Not very imaginative, I felt.
And I wondered, how a third sex of humans would manifest.

Once you begin to actually think about this, you quickly realize, that 99% of what people consider male/female is entirely cultural gender role, most of which is not even universal across the globe and/or across history.

And so I began to wonder what it is to be male or female.
If you look at nature, the only really distinguishing, consistent male behavioral pattern is aggression. But I find that limiting for a civilized species, when I think of Beethoven, Einstein or Nietzsche.

 

[Signa]

snip

Do you see the distinction?

Not. At. All. I mean, I get what you're trying to say, but it doesn't mesh with conventional language at all. It sounds like you're drawing lines that are only going to confuse people. Male and man are the same word to me. I only choose one over the other because of how English requires me to.

I still have not got a straight answer from you why otherkin are equal or unequal to transgendered people. I'm not looking for how you'd identify them, but the difference in how they identify themselves.


@everyone

Before I get a huge quote storm, please be aware that it's 4am, and this is my brain trying to rationalize a thought exercise on social politics and not an attack on a specific group. I'm genuinely curious about how people think of these things. God, I know I'm going to wake up tomorrow and be quoted like 12 times.

I thought you said you were satisfied with my answer. I don't care how people identify themselves unless there's something about that identity that somehow will certainly affect their behavior.

I don't mean to confuse people, I really am trying to keep all this as straightforward and sensible as possible, but as you said, maybe at 4am it's a lost cause. My brain doesn't run 100% at this time either.

On that note, goodnight. Sorry if i'm not making any sense.

My mistake. I thought you were thaluikhain when I posted that. You're cool.

 

[Thaluikhain]

cisgendered

seen this phrase a few time lately im just curious what it refers to?

Cisgender, as opposed to transgender.

By comparison, the Romans divided Gaul into Cisalpine Gaul (Gaul this side of the Alps), and Transalpine Gaul (Gaul the other side of the Alps). Switch Gaul for people, and the Alps for gender, and it's much the same thing.

 

[IMissedThatOne]

snip

Do you see the distinction?

Not. At. All. I mean, I get what you're trying to say, but it doesn't mesh with conventional language at all. It sounds like you're drawing lines that are only going to confuse people. Male and man are the same word to me. I only choose one over the other because of how English requires me to.

I still have not got a straight answer from you why otherkin are equal or unequal to transgendered people. I'm not looking for how you'd identify them, but the difference in how they identify themselves.


@everyone

Before I get a huge quote storm, please be aware that it's 4am, and this is my brain trying to rationalize a thought exercise on social politics and not an attack on a specific group. I'm genuinely curious about how people think of these things. God, I know I'm going to wake up tomorrow and be quoted like 12 times.

Sorry I tried to answer but the escapist somehow ate my post. I'll keep the post a lot shorter than the last one I typed. I think for most people there seems to be are more plausible (biological) explanation for transgender identities. We know of intersex conditions. We know that people sometimes develop atypically. That fetuses in the womb are exposed to both male and female hormones that atleast somewhat condition them. There has also been a lot of research in the field of Gender Identity and it's development. There is however almost no research in how a person can adopt an nonhuman identity. Nor are there any states in which a person as some kind of interspecies condition.
Here is a compressed version of the scientific history of GID: http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2005to2009/2006-atypical-gender-development.html


And some neurobiological insight into Gender Identity: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0070808#pone.0070808-Luders1

I hope that helps.

 

[Kathinka]

I'm cis myself, but I'm a student of medicine and wrote my doctorate about this stuff, so I can tell you a bit about it.

Time for some dry and boring science drop!

It isn't completely known or understood what causes it. It was used to be thought that hormonal exposure before birth or genetic components were responsible. However, this theory has been largely thrown out in recent years by twin studies. Genetics and hormonal exposure likely play some role, but the main cause is now thought to be psychological. An interesting thing occurs in the brains btw. While the brain of a transperson at birth and before transition is "normal", for a better word, after for example a biological male identifies and lives as a female for a time, their brain structure changes and after a while starts to take on some characteristics of the female brain. Initially, some studies figured that trans people just had the other genders brain because of that and were born with it. Later it was discovered that the change occurs later in live, like taxi drivers having the part of the brain responsible for orienting and pathfinding very pronounced, or violin players the part that deals with music. Hence why the currently most widely accepted theory is that the cause is mainly psychological. That doesn't make it any less real or serious of course, no matter what some backwards pay-the-gay-away type of people will tell you. There also seems to be a connection with body integrity identity disorder that isn't very well understood or researched yet. Some speculate that gender identity disorder is a form of BIID concerning the genitalia, pointing out the vastly bigger number of biologically male than female sufferers. However, to my knowledge that is just speculation and studies in that direction are yet to be conducted.
Aiding the afflicted poses a tricky situation. Sufferers who remain untreated suffer heavily, not seldomly being driven to suicide in absolutely alarming rates. The only measure current medicine can take are cosmetic and hormonal procedures that change the appearance closer to the desired state. However, this is a bit of a stop gap and depression and suicide still trouble many who have undergone successful change. Measures that treat the underlying problem would probably yield better results, but as of now there are absolutely none. Conventional therapy yields no good results and gender reassignment is currently the only halfway working option. Research in alternative directions only now started to be seriously conducted because for a long time it was stigmatized to attempt to "fix" gender integrity disorder, the same way that treating homosexuals as mentally ill was stigmatized. Lately that has changed a bit with humanity smartening up and realizing that there's nothing wrong with being homosexual and the only problems that homosexuals face in life are from the idiocy and intolerance of those around them. There's nothing wrong with being trans either, but it's a serious condition that requires intense medical treatment to enable the subject to live a healthy and happy life. So science has slowly started to look into alternative routes to benefit the patients and enable them to live happily with their body that don't require extensive surgery, unpredictable hormone supplements and very often loss of fertility. But a real solution or even an idea for one is still far in the future.

 

[Signa]

Sorry I tried to answer but the escapist somehow ate my post. I'll keep the post a lot shorter than the last one I typed. I think for most people there seems to be are more plausible (biological) explanation for transgender identities. We know of intersex conditions. We know that people sometimes develop atypically. That fetuses in the womb are exposed to both male and female hormones that atleast somewhat condition them. There has also been a lot of research in the field of Gender Identity and it's development. There is however almost no research in how a person can adopt an nonhuman identity. Nor are there any states in which a person as some kind of interspecies condition.
Here is a compressed version of the scientific history of GID: http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2005to2009/2006-atypical-gender-development.html


And some neurobiological insight into Gender Identity: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0070808#pone.0070808-Luders1

I hope that helps.

Thanks for that, but I'm not including those cases as part of my conversation. While they do exist, the conditions are extremely rare, and can't account for more than a few percent of the trans community. Maybe my assumption is way off and let's say 80% of the trans community provably are genetically atypical, what about that other 20%? I'm talking about those people. The existence of otherkin has proven that people can feel very strongly about their identity without it making a lick of sense to a 3rd party. Is that "20%" the same as otherkin, just with far less extreme views of their identity? Going back to Silentpony's suggestion on the first page, is therapy a better solution instead of surgery? No one seems willing to ask that in case it's offensive.

 

[AwesomeHatMan]

Well, for all outward appearances, how is it different? I mean, I'm actually asking. I'm not talking about that condition that you can have your chromosomes backwards, but what is the actual difference between one person believing they are a woman trapped in a man's body, and another person believing they are a wolf trapped in a man's body?

how is being gay any different from people who want to have sex with dogs?

Consent ...

Was just about to post this FirstNameLastName... you think that wouldn't be that hard to come up with...

 

[The Lunatic]

Going back to Silentpony's suggestion on the first page, is therapy a better solution instead of surgery? No one seems willing to ask that in case it's offensive.

I've always considered this a difficult point.

On one hand. If we believe that gender is a cultural thing, and has no biological basis. Then what does it matter if your appearance is male or female? Aren't you just catering to cultural standards in the desire for it to be so, when your identity itself is against those standards?

On the other, it's most likely something that can't be controlled, and regardless of rationalising it, it's still a desire.




There's also the issues in the transcommunity itself, a lot of communities I've seen focus on the surgeries as an integral part of "Becoming a man/woman", which seems a bit harmful to the mental state of those in those communities.

On top of that, there's the argument if the surgery will even be effective, whilst it certainly helps some people, a large number of people who identify as transgender still comitt suicide after having the surgeries.

 

[Kathinka]

Going back to Silentpony's suggestion on the first page, is therapy a better solution instead of surgery? No one seems willing to ask that in case it's offensive.

I've always considered this a difficult point.

On one hand. If we believe that gender is a cultural thing, and has no biological basis. Then what does it matter if your appearance is male or female? Aren't you just catering to cultural standards in the desire for it to be so, when your identity itself is against those standards?

On the other, it's most likely something that can't be controlled, and regardless of rationalising it, it's still a desire.




There's also the issues in the transcommunity itself, a lot of communities I've seen focus on the surgeries as an integral part of "Becoming a man/woman", which seems a bit harmful to the mental state of those in those communities.

On top of that, there's the argument if the surgery will even be effective, whilst it certainly helps some people, a large number of people who identify as transgender still comitt suicide after having the surgeries.

Those are good points. The main issue is that only therapy has proven to be not satisfyingly effective to help. It has been tried, but it doesn't work as well as we want with our current methods. Believe me, if there was a pill or a therapy tool to make Transgendered people feel comfortable in the bodies they have, modern medicine would love nothing more. It would fix all the issues of the half-assed solution that is currently our best option to help. See my boding long-post above for more info.

 

[IMissedThatOne]

Sorry I tried to answer but the escapist somehow ate my post. I'll keep the post a lot shorter than the last one I typed. I think for most people there seems to be are more plausible (biological) explanation for transgender identities. We know of intersex conditions. We know that people sometimes develop atypically. That fetuses in the womb are exposed to both male and female hormones that atleast somewhat condition them. There has also been a lot of research in the field of Gender Identity and it's development. There is however almost no research in how a person can adopt an nonhuman identity. Nor are there any states in which a person as some kind of interspecies condition.
Here is a compressed version of the scientific history of GID: http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2005to2009/2006-atypical-gender-development.html


And some neurobiological insight into Gender Identity: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0070808#pone.0070808-Luders1

I hope that helps.

Thanks for that, but I'm not including those cases as part of my conversation. While they do exist, the conditions are extremely rare, and can't account for more than a few percent of the trans community. Maybe my assumption is way off and let's say 80% of the trans community provably are genetically atypical, what about that other 20%? I'm talking about those people. The existence of otherkin has proven that people can feel very strongly about their identity without it making a lick of sense to a 3rd party. Is that "20%" the same as otherkin, just with far less extreme views of their identity? Going back to Silentpony's suggestion on the first page, is therapy a better solution instead of surgery? No one seems willing to ask that in case it's offensive.

The problem with behavior therapy is that it didn't work. They tried changing gender identity to match the persons sex with various sometimes cruel treatment: https://books.google.de/books?id=IlPX6E5glDEC&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=electroshock+therapy+transgender&source=bl&ots=5hQ2O9PNEU&sig=7sP-RJl0kU9FkDvQIyMTQWoxAJA&hl=de&sa=X&ei=l_n6VJbsCsndPbSxgJAG&ved=0CHIQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=electroshock%20therapy%20transgender&f=false

If you research a bit the reason while surgery is an option is because it has been the best solution for transgender people that there is to life a comfortable life, atleast for those who wish so.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1158136006000491
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1677-55382012000100014&script=sci_arttext
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4614-7441-8_13
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jsm.12413/abstract;jsessionid=AE3BCEC2817C62114C82CE53B328C268.f04t03?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

 

[Loonyyy]

cisgendered

seen this phrase a few time lately im just curious what it refers to?

It means your gender aligns with your assigned gender, whilst trans means it doesn't.

Shares etymology with the pronouns trans and cis (For instance, trans and cis are used to describe the orientation of bonds in chemistry, resulting in terms like "transfat", where the bond is in the trans configuration, as opposed to the cis configuration.

 

[Beliyal]

What I find interesting is that we only ever pose this question to trans people.

Cisgendered people likely never ponder these things - they don't have to.

Yeah. In one of the conversations about this topic with my friends, this question was actually brought up (we're all cis). Suddenly, in that moment, no one knew what to say. Why do I identify as a woman exactly? Why do they identify as men? We don't know. I find it unfair that we ask trans people this, when it's so difficult to explain and vocalize. They identify as a gender they I identify with for the same reasons cis people do and no one can truly explain why they feel this way. Why? Perhaps one day we'll know for sure, after thorough studies and more insight.

It appears, gender is really in our heads

This much seems certain.

But what exactly is gender?

What does it mean to be of female gender? I think we can agree it's not wearing dresses or playing with dolls. It's not having a uterus or being into men.

So what is it?

I don't know this either. There are some good posts in this thread itself, but I'm not familiar with the answer to that question. It could be just a subjective sense that no one but you can determine for yourself, but I do believe that there must be some scientific way to define and explain this sense of gender identity. However, I'm neither qualified nor educated enough in this area to say anything further.

 

[shrekfan246]

is therapy a better solution instead of surgery? No one seems willing to ask that in case it's offensive.

The thing is, therapy is generally part of the whole package for trans people in the first place. It's not the solution, it's just part of it. By most accounts I've seen up to the present, there's a marked psychological difference between being trans and thinking you're a wolf. If your next question is, "how?" then I unfortunately don't know enough about the specifics to adequately explain it.

EDIT: But for a start, I would imagine that someone who feels that they're a wolf likely doesn't have brain patterns that are similar to those of a wolf's.

 

[Nieroshai]

I would say, as clearly as I can, that I am choosing to change my sex because it does not match how my brain works. It is not simply that I wish I was female; it is that for my entire life a penis has forced me into pretending to be something that ill-suits me. It's a matter of how the brain works, and how things work during fetal development.

 

[TakerFoxx]

I'm not talking about what they are sexually attracted to. I'm asking about their sense of self identification. Yes, that identification can change what they are attracted to, but that's not part of the question, or really this discussion.

no its not about sexual attraction

its the point that more often then not I see people point to otherkin as a way to invalidate trans people, much like people might point to something like incest and ask what the difference is between gay people

Well, that still doesn't explain why otherkin are unequal to transgenders. Either there is a good reason why being transgendered is better than being otherkin, or both are equal and that validates both or invalidates both. Which is it?

As I understand it, the brains of those with gender dysphoria and have been found to be hormonally in line with the gender they identify as rather than the gender they appear to be physically. There are also a number of other hormonal imbalances that can cause it. For example, one of my roommates does not properly produce a certain female hormone while producing an overabundance of a certain male hormone, which has led to her having gender issues. Not to the point of identifying as male, but it has caused her problems and doubt and she now takes supplements to compensate (and boy howdy, is she fun to be around when that happens!).

Note that this isn't universal, as there are other causes. My other roommate also has gender issues, though his is related to childhood trauma rather than hormonal imbalances. But to answer your question (and someone can correct me if I'm off-base in this, as this is just going from the top of my head), there is actual biological evidence to explain why many people struggle with gender identity, whereas none yet exists for otherkin.

 

[Jux]

I think you'll find these resources helpful in your search of knowledge and understanding.

http://tranifesto.com/transgender-faqs-and-info/ten-things-not-to-say-to-a-trans-person/
http://tranifesto.com/transgender-faqs-and-info/trans-etiquette-for-non-trans-people/
http://www.glaad.org/transgender/allies

All that tells me is transgendered people are too afraid to answer questions from people who are legitimately interested. I'll never understand why someone feels you're not supposed to ask a certain type of question because if someone is trying better inform themselves of something they don't understand, that mentality should not be met with judgement nor should they be chastised for asking questions. It isn't every day you see someone who used to be a man or woman but are now the opposite sex.

Perhaps, if one is truly interested in understanding the issues trans people face, they might first try to be empathetic to what they go through. I'm not saying that the OP lacks empathy, but rather the curiosity to have a question answered should take a backseat to first understanding what trans people go through. And there are plenty of resources out there on trans issues that answer most of the basic questions you're going to see. I would suggest that by first going to look at those resources, one demonstrates actual desire to learn. I can't imagine how often these very basic questions and misguided ideas get fielded at Mars on a day to day basis, but I imagine that it does get tiring very quickly having to correct people time and time again over the very same things.

 

[AwesomeHatMan]

I would say, as clearly as I can, that I am choosing to change my sex because it does not match how my brain works. It is not simply that I wish I was female; it is that for my entire life a penis has forced me into pretending to be something that ill-suits me. It's a matter of how the brain works, and how things work during fetal development.

The problem many people have with this is how is one ill-suited? What's so different between being a guy or girl? Or to put it another way why does one care which sex they are.

(Edited for grammar)

 

[AwesomeHatMan]

The problem with behavior therapy is that it didn't work.

Will that be true for all therapy methods ever or is it just true for all recorded ones so far? Does therapy have to be painful? Do parenting conditions affect whether the child will have dysphoria? Can a short amount of time in therapy later in life be expected to have greater effect parenting conditions earlier in life? Can therapy be a change in parenting conditions?

I am sorry if those questions come across as cold, the word therapy especially has certain connatations, but if you are going to discuss whether or not therapy, again I dislike using the word here, is viable then these questions should be considered.

 

[DocJ]

I don't identify myself as one, but sometimes I think I should be. Anyone who has met me knows I have a few feminine tendencies...Okay a lot of feminine tendencies. But I am definitely male. I mean, fairly sure. Kinda hard to mistake it. I'm often asked questions like, "Would you swap if you could?" My answer was maybe. I said yes to the question, "Would you mind spending a week or so as a girl?"
It's just, I dunno. I don't feel like most other men, I've never had a surplus of male friends. I usually hang out with members of the opposite sex just simply because...I feel more comfortable around them. I feel if I could change temporarily, and had some experience, then I could make a permanent choice. But I'm perfectly happy how I am now.

 

[IMissedThatOne]

The problem with behavior therapy is that it didn't work.

Will that be true for all therapy methods ever or is it just true for all recorded ones so far? Does therapy have to be painful? Do parenting conditions affect whether the child will have dysphoria? Can a short amount of time in therapy later in life be expected to have greater effect parenting conditions earlier in life? Can therapy be a change in parenting conditions?

I am sorry if those questions come across as cold, the word therapy especially has certain connatations, but if you are going to discuss whether or not therapy, again I dislike using the word here, is viable then these questions should be considered.

Oh I don't mind these questions but I say this. I'm by no means an expert or have any medical degree. So I'll quote what I found during my quick internet research.

As for therapy. Well as I already mentioned above very severe treaments like electroconvulsive therapy didn't help but also psychotherapy in generally seems ineffective:

Quoting from: Handbook of Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders
von David L. Rowland,Luca Incrocci

"Accepting Natal Sex: In the past, most clinicians regarded acceptance of natal gender as the preferred outcome in gender identity disorders and often recommended psychodynmaic psychotherapy as the treatment most likely to achieve this outcome. However rigurous studies demonstrating that psychotherapy can reduce gender dyshphoria are lacking.

Qouting from: The Gender of Psychology

"Various theories of causation were offered, but as psychotherapy and other treaments proved ineffective, doctors who who were sympathetic to thetranssexual plight were prepared to grant gender reassigment in the most extreme cases"

As to if parents can influence gender identity disorders, there is as far as I
know no evidence that parents have any direct influence on their gender identitiy.It is however a very complex thematic and for some indivduals their realtionship to their parents greatly might influences them and it might even play a role into their gender expression or identity. But again I'm no expert on child psychology and development.