Trope-a-Dope

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The Big Eye

Truth-seeking Tail-chaser
Aug 19, 2009
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I say that's a point for Chipman!
If all movies decided that it's all been done before, they'd simply become parodies of themselves without being able to express any actual thought. Sometimes, we need movies to take themselves seriously, even if it does mean they'll be mercilessly lampooned by people with no ideas of their own. For my part, I'm glad some directors are still willing to take the risk.
On the other hand, Avatar made $77 million over its opening weekend, so maybe it's not as risky as it looks...
 

Emenhil

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Dec 18, 2009
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You make a perfectly good point; your rebuttal of the whole "lulz been there saw that" attitude is astute - and there you go and spoil it all by saying something like "Avatar really is original!".

No. It's not. You're really playing devil's advocate, here. I've rarely felt more embarrassed in my movie-going career. The originality lies in the details, you say. Well, I'll give you that. The ecosytem is well done, the USB braids are cool, it's visually stunning, aaaaaaaand that's it. The rest is cliche valley. Yes, cliche - forget the trope stuff.

The good guys are good, the bad guys are bad, the hero is strong, overcomes dangers nobody else could face, seduces the princess, and is saved by a deus ex machina (or natura, if you will, though I doubt the latin is correct.) I'm not summarizing the plot - there is nothing more to the plot! Nothing! The rest is beautiful trees, flashy dragons and explosions. It should have been a trilogy: maybe we could have seen the characters... I don't now, grow, or change a little? What's that word? Development?

These narrative elements hardly qualifies as "trope". They're just cliches; sad, boring, mind-numbingly overused cliches.

"Most profitable film of all times!" will be the obligatory response. Yes, I know that. And I'm depressed!

In short: good piece, but I had to get this out of my chest ;)


PS: for some reason, the accents look all weird in the live preview... I therefore apologize for the accentless "cliche".
 

Eversor

New member
May 21, 2009
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Fantastic article, Bob. I will definitely use that story about the boy and the aliens at some point, that was a brilliant fable about this matter.
 

Hexenwolf

Senior Member
Sep 25, 2008
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Altorin said:
I've totally heard all of this before. I mean, aren't you just rehashing what many others have said Bob? I mean I could count the number of times I've seen someone stand up on a soapbox and scream "YOU'RE NOT ORIGINAL FOR DISLIKING THINGS BECAUSE THEY ARE UNORIGINAL" then I'd be an old man by the time i was through

Honestly, I thought you were above this sort of redundant bullcrap Bob. I had faith in you. I held your hand when your dog died. I weeped with you when your dad got in that horrible car accident just after realizing that in fact going to your baseball game WAS more important then going to his board meeting. I laughed and cheered your name when you won that game, even though all of the odds were against you - the other players were just so huge, and skilled, and your team was a scrappy band of rapscallions, with just a single Ringer and you, LEADING THE PACK!

For shame.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Strange.

Also, if you're not being sarcastic, then you misunderstood him. He wasn't saying you're not original if you dislike things. He's saying you're an asshole, and, more importantly, are depriving yourself of large opportunities at enjoying media.

EDIT: I'm using "you" in the general sense there, not the specific. I'm not trying to insult anyone.
 

More Fun To Compute

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Nov 18, 2008
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The word trope itself is slightly unpleasant to me and I don't like how the site seems to be informing a lot of people's language and world view. It's like, the internet is raising a generation of comic book guys and maybe someone right now is looking up comic book guy on TVTropes right now to find out exactly where my argument falls down or has resonance. Don't do it.
 

Dr Happypills

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Dec 21, 2009
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Sure, things don't need to be entirely original to be good or great. I'm a fan of Arthurian mythos and that stuff crops up all the time in everything. That's fine.

What's not fine (to me) is going into a movie because you've had a really stressful week and want to relax and being treated to a 2 1/2 hour lecture about things you have no control over. So I didn't like Avatar. Oh well.
 

AcacianLeaves

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Sep 28, 2009
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I agree to some extend, but you can hardly blame people for discussing the reasons they didn't like a movie that is now one of the most successful movies ever made. A lot of the discussion about Avatar assumes that the only reason people didn't like it was due to it being unoriginal. This is not true. It has many original details, I just thought all of those details were silly, stupid, or just plain insipid. I don't like the techniques it used in an attempt to manipulate my opinion. It was fine for a spectacle, but it just didn't appeal to me. I don't like spectacle without substance.

Out of curiosity Bob, why do you feel the need to defend Avatar every other week? Long after most of 'the internet' has stopped discussing it, here you come to write an article that you know will illicit the exact kind of responses you're railing against. Is it just to laugh from behind your computer and say 'gotcha!' at people who disagree with you?
 

Latinidiot

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Feb 19, 2009
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props to mr. Chipman for this excellent article. However, I do think that some things are overused, and you don't have to be jaded or someone who likes to think he is.
 

sooperman

Partially Awesome at Things
Feb 11, 2009
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AcacianLeaves said:
Out of curiosity Bob, why do you feel the need to defend Avatar every other week? Long after most of 'the internet' has stopped discussing it, here you come to write an article that you know will illicit the exact kind of responses you're railing against. Is it just to laugh from behind your computer and say 'gotcha!' at people who disagree with you?
I don't want to troll you, but do you have examples? He defended it in his review of it, in his review of Shuttah Island, and this article. That's three.

In the space of like two weeks. I'm not saying you are wrong, but please clarify here.
 

esin

New member
Feb 17, 2010
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piscian said:
Didn't you just go on this huge tirade about how Legion was crap because it had similarities to The Prophecy. I'm sorry man you just get more and more hypocritical with each review.
I might not have put it as harshly, but he has a point.
 

solidstatemind

Digital Oracle
Nov 9, 2008
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Hm. While these are valid observations and cause some interesting thoughts, I dunno if I agree with the scope. The 'jaded' fucktards who denigrate anything that does not meet their nebulous standards are really just edge-cases; thing is, they are more noticable because they are usually the loudest and the most obnoxious. I honestly think if it was as rampant a condition as Bob implies here, James Cameron wouldn't have so much money as to be able to build himself a 14000 square foot mansion constructed completely of bricks of 100 dollar bills.

I personally don't tolerate people like that: as I said, they're fucktards who seem to be determined to be unhappy and 'forever longing'. Usually not barrels of fun to hang out with.

The bit about there is nothing original also deeply saddens me. I would like to think that there are still stories yet to be told and songs yet to be sung, but I can understand where a person could think that is not the case. However, instead of a lack of inspiration, I'd chalk it up to commercialization- the capitalist system rewards low-risk investments with guaranteed returns over high-risk, all or nothing gambles, and this attitude bleeds over into our art and culture as well as our economics. Better to rehash a subject that is known to resonate with audiences than to attempt something avant garde. (I mean, shit, the fact that we have a phrase to describe exactly things that are experimental, different, and risk-taking should tell you something right there.)

other than that-- wow, Krull. Man that was a stinker of a movie. Saw it in the theaters, even.
 

Altorin

Jack of No Trades
May 16, 2008
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Hexenwolf said:
Altorin said:
I've totally heard all of this before. I mean, aren't you just rehashing what many others have said Bob? I mean I could count the number of times I've seen someone stand up on a soapbox and scream "YOU'RE NOT ORIGINAL FOR DISLIKING THINGS BECAUSE THEY ARE UNORIGINAL" then I'd be an old man by the time i was through

Honestly, I thought you were above this sort of redundant bullcrap Bob. I had faith in you. I held your hand when your dog died. I weeped with you when your dad got in that horrible car accident just after realizing that in fact going to your baseball game WAS more important then going to his board meeting. I laughed and cheered your name when you won that game, even though all of the odds were against you - the other players were just so huge, and skilled, and your team was a scrappy band of rapscallions, with just a single Ringer and you, LEADING THE PACK!

For shame.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Strange.

Also, if you're not being sarcastic, then you misunderstood him. He wasn't saying you're not original if you dislike things. He's saying you're an asshole, and, more importantly, are depriving yourself of large opportunities at enjoying media.

EDIT: I'm using "you" in the general sense there, not the specific. I'm not trying to insult anyone.
seriously? you couldn't tell I was being sarcastic? even when I mentioned his dog dying? Or described every kid's sports movie that plagued cinemas after Mighty Ducks made it big? It's ok though, at least you didn't come off like some mouth breathing fanboy, so I salute you.
 

AcacianLeaves

New member
Sep 28, 2009
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sooperman said:
AcacianLeaves said:
Out of curiosity Bob, why do you feel the need to defend Avatar every other week? Long after most of 'the internet' has stopped discussing it, here you come to write an article that you know will illicit the exact kind of responses you're railing against. Is it just to laugh from behind your computer and say 'gotcha!' at people who disagree with you?
I don't want to troll you, but do you have examples? He defended it in his review of it, in his review of Shuttah Island, and this article. That's three.

In the space of like two weeks. I'm not saying you are wrong, but please clarify here.
He also defended it in his Oscar Nominations video, the article Blue (Skin) State, the article Going Negative, and a few other mentions in various articles and videos. So that's 6 times that he's directly defended the movie since about the time it released. This article in particular strikes me as odd given that all the heat surrounding Avatar has died down and people have finally shut up about it.
 

MovieBob

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Dec 31, 2008
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AcacianLeaves said:
Out of curiosity Bob, why do you feel the need to defend Avatar every other week?
There are, approximately, THREE "newsworthy" current-events stories in mainstream film journalism: "Avatar" being a huge phenomenon possibly rewriting the rules of blockbuster movies and movie releasing (i.e. EVERY DAMN MOVIE is being made for 3D now,) The Oscars which this year is dominated by the Avatar/Hurt Locker rivalry, and "what's gonna happen to Roman Polanski?" That last one I've previously sworn-off covering until something new happens, so... there ya go ;)
 

sooperman

Partially Awesome at Things
Feb 11, 2009
1,157
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AcacianLeaves said:
sooperman said:
AcacianLeaves said:
Out of curiosity Bob, why do you feel the need to defend Avatar every other week? Long after most of 'the internet' has stopped discussing it, here you come to write an article that you know will illicit the exact kind of responses you're railing against. Is it just to laugh from behind your computer and say 'gotcha!' at people who disagree with you?
I don't want to troll you, but do you have examples? He defended it in his review of it, in his review of Shuttah Island, and this article. That's three.

In the space of like two weeks. I'm not saying you are wrong, but please clarify here.
He also defended it in his Oscar Nominations video, the article Blue (Skin) State, the article Going Negative, and a few other mentions in various articles and videos. So that's 6 times that he's directly defended the movie since about the time it released. This article in particular strikes me as odd given that all the heat surrounding Avatar has died down and people have finally shut up about it.
All excellent examples, thank you for the clarification. Bob does seem to be fanning the flames, as you pointed out. And personally I think he is trying to establish a mindset about the franchise; Cameron has two more moives planned for Pandora.

His arguments are valid, though. This article plus Blue (Skin) State present a legitimate opinion from someone with experience in the field. And from what I gather, Bob enjoyed Avatar and just likes to discuss it.
 

Kirbyoto

New member
Feb 21, 2010
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Oh, my god. There's so much wrong with this article. Like, I don't want to get all "internet troll hyperbole" about it, but there is really a lot wrong with what's been established here, both in the article itself and in the comments.

First of all: It hasn't ALL been "done before". Humanity has not wrung out every single possible story option within the last 20 years. Creativity has not "died out", or stopped existing. The fact that Avatar rips off like five different movies is not an "inevitable result of human behavior" - it's lazy. The Na'vi are a transparent, 2d race of super-perfect Idolized Aborigines with cat-faces and ear spacers. That's not "inevitable". That's "James Cameron had a message to get across, and the message was: Natives are great". The fact that the military was comically evil and corrupt wasn't a result of "well, we've used up every other story possibility", it was a thin and eye-rolling way to make them the bad guys.

Imagine if it had been reversed. Imagine if the natives - you know, the hot, blue-skinned cat people that people jerk off over - had actually been the BAD GUYS, and the gung-ho marines had been the GOOD GUYS? Name me one movie like that. Imagine if the plot had been the same, but instead of being an idolized, super-sexy race of near-humans who love nature, the aliens had been a bunch of disgusting, fish-faced, fanged-maw freaks that the human protagonist falls in love with anyways. Imagine if the movie had been the same, except instead of the marines being comically, Snidely Whiplash evil, they'd been reasonably attempting to negotiate with the Na'vi and the bloodshed was a result of a misunderstanding instead of a need to make them an analogue to White People In Colonial Times.

None of these would sell well, of course. Avatar was a lengthy, drawn-out way to sell tickets with fancy CGI and manipulative design. But they would have been original, and different, and not ten thousand "white man goes out to commune with native race, turns out to be chosen one and falls in love with their princess" movies. Hell, it might have even challenged the genre or something, and I mean that never goes well with James Cameron. It's not like he made a movie that basically codified space marines in modern perception, nor did he make a movie where an evil robot assassin was turned into a sympathetic father figure. No, all that James Cameron has ever been good for, or will ever do, is "standard action schlock with no inventiveness or deviation". And what else should we expect? It's All Been Done Before.
 

A random person

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Apr 20, 2009
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Excellent article, Moviebob, and you get massive bonus points for mentioning TV Tropes. I'd also like to add that tropes are not bad (a page used to be titled that) and a work can be great because it's troperiffic [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Troperiffic], though really I'm regurgitating what your article was somewhat about.

For the unengaged, Nanoha A's is pretty much a big ball of magical girl and super robot tropes, and it's awesome!

Likewise, Negima is pretty much a trope-filled shonen/harem series, as a cursory glance at its TV Tropes page should show. It's best that you stick to the manga, though.
 

Booze Zombie

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Dec 8, 2007
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Are you trying to say "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts"?
Because if that's what you're saying, then I agree, that's true of anything, books, music, art, life.

But if you're trying to tell people to switch their brains off and just look at pretty pictures, then I disagree.