If she can only function with her boyfriend, then its her choice. It would be a lot more worse if EVERY female is incapable of function without the boyfriends.Jordy Hartog said:
Tropes vs. Women Protagonists
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Well, the writting is very shitty and is very possible that the audience is just there for the abs, but if the "manipulate things and get away with it" is a female power fantasy, then that would explain why so many women LOVE Twilight.BrassButtons said:
Bella Swan is a manipulative ***** that cant stop teasing 2 guys that love her (for whatever reason)
Which is why I said "not perfect". Though the more I think about it, the more it does actually make sense that she'd be the weakest combat character since she's a mechanic where all the other characters are either soldiers/guards, robots or have the advantage of living in an environment that would toughen them up (hell, protagonist Maya has to cross a valley filled with wolves to even get to her school). I'm probably just nitpicky because I'd have liked to see her as one of the main physical powerhouses due to her robotic limbs and the fact that she has the skill and upper body strength to use a monkey wrench that's bigger than her arm as a weapon.DioWallachia said:
Yes, an oiled-up Nathan Drake would be ridiculous; it would be inconsistent with Uncharted as a whole, because he's been established beforehand as someone not-too-likely to strip and oil himself for our pleasure. However, my remark about "oiled-up Nathan Drakes" wasn't aimed specifically at Uncharted. Gaming as a whole would be none the worse for wear if we had gender symmetry in all aspects, sexual pandering included.Moonlight Butterfly said:But do you not think oiled up Nathan Drake would be ridiculous and inappropriate and make the character look stupid?Seneschal said:
That's the point I'm trying to make. The thing is when women see over sexualised female characters we can't take them seriously as a character because all we see is 'Oh she's there for the guys to ogle'
Korra is a great example of a character who is attractive but that isn't the centre of her character. She is brave, hotheaded, and sometimes foolish. She's a character and 'sexy' isn't her main 'selling point'. Even Asami who is more conventionally sexy has more than just her looks to go on. They both have faults and good things about them. The same with Katara, Toph, Azula etc. Their character is something that comes first over the eye candy for guys. The way they dress is rooted in who they are.
I mean I could never see someone with Chun Li's personality dressing like she does in Street Fighter 2 (unless that's her special 'revenge dress') but I could see her dressing like she does in Alpha. The way a character looks and comports themselves is very important in a visual medium.
I hope you see what I'm trying to get at beyond 'sexy is bad mkay'
And no, I still see no reason why sexual pandering is inherently disrespectful to players. Someone's opinion of a fictional character doesn't reflect on you, and if gamers couldn't separate fact from fiction, we'd have a much bigger, cataclysmic problem with videogame violence - which we obviously don't. You're claiming that it devalues specific characters, which I agree with, but schlocky cheesecake rollercoasters, which I still believe will make up half the damn industry in the future, don't give a shit about characters anyway. Their pandering to power devalues characters just as much, with the innumerable grunting meatheads serving as a case study of how not to write male characters, but these games still sell, and there's no reason why they shouldn't - people buy them for the power fantasy, and have every right to.
A lot of the medium (especially the AAA lineup) is already pandering at its core - power fantasies are almost entirely devoted to licking the player's boots, they are easy to conceive, easy to implement, low-risk and eminently marketable. I could just as easily say "we should have more games where you lack power, because it makes a whole lot more narrative sense", but that in no way means that we should have less power fantasies - I can see the appeal, I can see who would want to play them more than the alternative, and I can see no harm in them continuing to do so. I would merely be asking for more diversity and inclusion.
And I didn't get that from you. Because pandering is unpalatable to you, you assume that it should be for everyone, equating it with an attack at gender equality (and even racism, in a previous post), which is preposterous. Games weren't acknowledging your presence in the audience, up until recently for very understandable reasons, and that is the extent of their crime. But Chun Li didn't strip you of anything but a feeling of belonging, and that's what you (and me, for that matter) are justified in demanding right now.
I know the statistics, and also the fact that US law makes it next to impossible for a man to be raped, except by statutory rape, and in the case of penetrative sex where both parties are intoxicated, he's assumed to be the rapist. Add to that the fact that male rape is considered humorous in the media and popular culture, and a frequent gag in sticoms, and it's not hard to see why it's underreported to the authorities.WraithGadra said:
And their demands go largely unheard, as seen by that same study you yourself posted, which shows a steady decrease in violent crime rates. So, the presence of a marginalized group of woman-haters doesn't correspond to an increase in rates of violence against women?! Who would have thought! It's almost as if their opinion was... disregarded!WraithGadra said:
Just seen an 'answer' to this article on 'The Mary Sue' and I thought I would post it here since it seems a well thought out reply that kind of matches my own views.
http://www.themarysue.com/what-women-want-in-female-video-game-protagonists/
http://www.themarysue.com/what-women-want-in-female-video-game-protagonists/
Except, you know, that's not what you did.DioWallachia said:
You mean, a transsexual? What, are transsexual opinions not valid on feminism in your world? Why? Because ponies?
On the contrary, nothing is more honest than fun and:[/quote]
Nothing WOULD be more honest than what you are doing. As shame you're not doing nothing.
I am doing nothing? i am not the one who answers every question with a "no, it isnt" over and over and forgetting something else to add after that answer..............the "why" of it. You never explain anything usefull, no wonder why just a few people answer to your post, there is nothing to work with.Zachary Amaranth said:
"ICO is sexist"
Why? already gave an entire analizis that you, a person who claims that text is its speciality, could just work with it but didnt. The only way that ICO could be sexist is by factors outside the narrative itself. Its like sending tha painting of The Mona Lisa to a culture that considers "sexist" the MERE presence if a woman smiling or without having the entire body covered except her eyes, that is not the paining fault.
Rubik Knight already gave a long response of your actions and you didnt even reply, instead you come here and pretend that no remembers what you did. You seek knowledge and yet you ignore it when you see it.
Its official, from now on, you will be called Anita.
By the way, where your avatar comes from? looks like a woman holding a knife, therefore, i feel like calling that work "sexist" regardless of context
. After all, if a woman is killing to survive, it CLEARLY means that the sick fuck of the writer and artist are trying to convey the message that women can ONLY survive through violence and not through undertanding.
See how stupid it gets? i KNOW that people who believe such thing exist, what i dont do is UNDERSTAND the point of view because it's beyond my comprehention, that is why is there the example of the "transexual who is a feminist". Since i already said that Free Will allows everyone, both male and female to behave equally in stupid ways as they please, they arent any diferent to my eyes. I have no grounds in ANY logic where the scenario of "feminist transexual shunned by the group he/she belongs" could be possible, that is why i have to ask for someone else to "suppose it happens, what could possibly be the REASON behind it?"
For example, i UNDERSTAND why "Samus is a girl" had such an impact a long ass time ago, because there wasnt "Strong Females Protagonist" back then, of course there were a few but those werent protagonist at all but sidekicks instead. I think it wasnt until 1993 where we saw females as protagonist more often, like for example the Sega Genesis port of "Snow Brothers" had 20 extra floors at the end where you play as The Princesses of Snow that you rescued previously and now have to rescue the brothers themselves.
Compared to the "Transexual Feminist" i dont even understand why would such thing would be a big deal, and to me its like a Twist of M. Night Shyamalan for the sake of a Twist. No context to work with.
Then again, this is the same world where Ico is accused of being racist against black people, i mean come on! its CLEAR that its a ploy of the white supremacist of japan to brainwash our children to destroy all the blacks before they steal our curvy women (as demostrated by the black shadows you kill); The same world were womans love to be treated like shit by an abusive boyfriend like in Twilight; And the same world where a parent decides to burn the entire house down just to make his children stop playing with the WII.
You know, Free Will. So maybe a Transexual is a sin in the eyes of feminism, who knows? and if someone knows, please tell me.
By Strong Protagonist i mean one that moves the plot foward by its actions. A bad example would by Fem/Bro Shepard in ME2, who is constantly being railoaded into following Cerberus and doesnt have any choice in such regard, doesnt reach conclutions that move the plot foward, even if it is a RPG.
PD: By the way: http://twitter.yfrog.com/od45703908j
She seems conveniently aware of the trolls of 4CHAN, almost like she knew the source of the backlash from the video to begin with. There is no other reason for her to focus her attention on that place since we ALL know that trolls annoy everyone, and yet she has been focusing her attention there, just the same place where the video was spammed to death (instead of any forum with a worthy discussion)
I will never understand why people prefer the method of having a main character that is interchangeable between men and woman like in Mass Effect. Seems so lazy for both the developers AND the fans themselves for being so easily pleased.Moonlight Butterfly said:
Its basically the SAME CHARACTER regardless of body and yet people feel like not playing the game if they dont have their Shepard to be the sex they want. Just....why? would you feel ashamed or horrified if, for example, your Shep was transformed by Space-Magic (heh-heh-heh) into the opposite sex? you can no longer relate to him/her even if they are basically the same and always had been?
How about this? instead of that mediocrity, the developers and writers should do something like in "Evolva" or "Legacy of Kain: Defiance", in short have 2+ Protagonist.
For the Evolva model, it would have a male and a woman as protagonist with diferent backgrounds and personalities, that you dont get to choose what order you play as first because the game uses them both at the same time and the gameplay need you to switch between them to advance the level. This at least offer you the chance of at least put yourself in the shoes of another person for a while and once they rejoin the team after being divided by the enviroment you can switch back to your protagonist of preference.
For the Defiance model, its the same but the game follows a linear path on who you take over to play as. Complete the stage with one of them and the game switch to another in the next one and so forth. Its more "forced" than the above one because there is the possibility that you dont like the person you play as, but assuming that there is good writing involved, you would at LEAST know why they are the way they are and you will eventually reach an understanding of the oposite protagonist position and dreams in life.
Its baby steps but at least its something.
My complain is basically what Jim Sterling said in "Think of The Children!", in this case just because you have a male/female protagonist that its of my same gender doesnt automatically mean that i will relate more to him/her.
Well I think, at best, it's because as power fantasies go women want pretty much the same thing as men. At worst it's like being thrown a bone in an industry which pretty much ignores our needs.DioWallachia said:
When we see a female character who is allowed to achieve as much as a male we like it and that's what makes it relatable. Even Lara Croft is sexualised so at some level I recognise she's not 'for me' that's what makes her different from FemShep, who as a gender swap character is pretty much allowed to get on with things without any sort of obvious pandering. She acts and dresses appropriate to her situation and background, her gender isn't the most important thing about her. I hope that makes sense.
I sometimes worry that demanding two seperate protagonists would increase resentment towards female gamers. In much the same way multiplayer gets flak for taking away resources from single player.
The thing that annoys me its laziness. For example, lets take Dragon Age 2, where no matter what sex you choose to be, all the love interest are bisexual in both cases and want to get into "snuss snuss" bussiness with you, ALL OF THEM.Moonlight Butterfly said:
Now what is more easy to design and cost effective? to make a few characters have lines responses for when they are hit by someone they dont swing into? or to make EVERYONE respond to you without adressing your gender and want to "explore your dungeons" regardless if you are a male/female/Cthulhu? The only party member that can only be romanced by one gender is Sebastian. The only ones that can't be romanced at all are Varric (who likes to keep it in his species), Aveline (who can be flirted with for a while but ultimately falls for someone else), and your sibling (who is your sibling).
To me, having a "Swap-Your-Gender-O-Matic" is one of those things. And i dont think that demanding 2 protagonist is going to be a problem unless the writers have some kind of brain tummor that doesnt allow them to write a character that behaves in a different way acording to its background and personality. After all, how is demanding good writting going to make the single player suck more? Unless you mean that making CLEAR difference between the protagonist (besides the gender) is going to attract hate, that would be silly since things like RPG always had difference between classes and one has to accept that, even if anyone can be a hero, there are many ways to do it.
I guess that what I'm trying to say is that at the moment characters like FemShep are the closest thing to a decent female protagonist that we have and that's why they are popular.DioWallachia said:
Let me try and put it a different way, sure the gaming industry can do better as you very rightly pointed out, but at the moment those are the characters that are popular with women because we don't have much else. If we want to be a hero FemShep gives us that chance without the extra baggage of being a character whose primary feature is 'she is a woman' and isn't there to pander to men. With a pre made female protagonist you have the danger of skidding into pander territory. Hawke, Shepard, Dovahkiin, Courier Six and The Lone Wanderer don't have that crutch to bear and so women are free to be heroes without their characters being sex dolls for the boys.
I mean remember that dev who, when asked if their would be female characters in his game, said
'But how would we make them sexy' That is the bullet that gender swapped female characters dodge and they are much better for it.
But Shepard is a brick in both cases, it has no personality besides being a soldier. I know that people want to cling to the female version of Shep because there isnt anything better in AAA industry, but it may send the wrong message to the developers that we ONLY care about that our avatars must be customizable for our mouths to shut up and be happy.Moonlight Butterfly said:
And no matter what the artist do, someone will ALWAYS find a woman sexy anyway. I mean who doesnt want a piece of those......chucks of land:
I hope there is plenty of oil in the garage
Even if they draw a woman to be HEALTHY in the sense of having child-birthing hips, people would STILL want to hit that because that is ANOTHER factor of what makes a woman sexy. Come to think of it, if the idea is to send the message that "everyone can be a hero", then excluding womans that have a moderate amalgamation of massive mamaries because they will distract the heroes is quite bafling. Then again, they could try another profession instead just in the same way that a male that doesnt have the stamina required to be heroic cannon fodder must try something else to be a hero.
The writers should focus on the plot and making sure that both protagonist move the plot foward, because that is what strong characters do.
Well I'm trying to tell you what it is that I want in a video game character and your reaction is to tell me what I want :/ I disagree that femshep has no personality for a start.DioWallachia said:
I want a character who is a hero just like her male counterpart these characters are seriously popular with female gamers. Telling us that well women can't do that and sorry they have to try something else is kind of offensive. That's exactly what we don't want. We want to fight deathclaws and dragons.
Saying well men will find a character sexy anyway so there is no point in complaining is kind of counterproductive too. When you sexualise a female character it's the equivalent of making guys play as Edward from Twilight it's really hard to take the character seriously.
Lastly body shape has little to do with sexualisation. It's more to do with how a character comports themselves. FemShep has a great figure but you would never see her in a boobs and boot pose winking at the camera and flashing her knickers when she fights. I could say the same for my Nord dragonborn.
Women want a serious protagonist just like the boys not someone whose primary attribute is there to look good for said boys.
PS. Ellie is awesome.
Not FEMshep but Shep in general, he/she doesnt change as a character, not by the plot or even by the relationships (hell, not even dying make him/her raise questions about her/his condition as Space Jesus) and thus, its a brick. The ONLY moment where we can extract some character is in The Lair Of The Shadow Brooker when Liara ask "how are you doing?". And for that, i fear that people may be too easily pleased and the developers are going to get lazy, and given how they are taking NO chances and playing it safe, i fear that we may not see a new IJI or a SHODAN (a Pulp Villain) in the AAA market soon enough.Moonlight Butterfly said:
Homogenization is the key word regarding to what one MUSNT DO with the human shape. If we have to many sexy characters then its a problem, if we do not then its ALSO a problem because it sends the message of "Sorry, the beutiful people is too useless to be in the front so we send them somewhere else. So Tifa, you better get a reduction or get the fuck off here". That is why i said that the artist shouldn't care about the shape at all and do whatever as long that there is variety for each character. Doesnt matter what shape they have as long that there isnt a suspicious number of super models with silicon upgrades.
But this isnt what i want to discuss, i am more conserned with the execution of female villains, specially someone like SHODAN from System Shock 2 whose female atributes (described in the article i posted before) were actually used to make the player feel unconfortable. Basically, the developers were sexist to make a point with SHODAN.
The thing is while being sexy is okay it shouldn't be the major thing about them. Someone can be attractive without being overly sexy.DioWallachia said:
If someone is a hero who fights for a living they shouldn't be running around in a chainmail biniki doing bending over poses.
You see how in the second picture Asami is pretty beautiful but she's not dressed inappropriately for what she is doing.
BUT! you cry! freedom of artistic expression! Well this discussion is about what women like in female protagonists and what we don't like is the female version of Edward from Twilight.
You can defend non homogenisation all you want but I feel a lot more comfortable when my protagonist isn't a poster girl for a porn site. Again body type has nothing to do with it as we see with Asami, the way a character dresses and comports themselves is.
This is Azula the female villain of Avatar TLA.
She is evil, manipulative, precise, and a bit of a sociopath.
One of the best female villains I've experienced.
The problem with SHODAN is the fact that women won't feel uncomfortable and therefore using mysongyny to make a villain more threatening is exclusionary towards female gamers isn't it?
But yeah...that's kind of not the point of this thread or the article I posted in the first place.
Artistic Integrety goes right the fuck out the window as soon as we said that there should be more variety on the characters anyway. Also, after the ME3 fiasco, i doubt that anyone would even dare to use that word again if they dont know their shit to begin with (or are prideful as fuck)Moonlight Butterfly said:
On the SHODAN note, you said women wont feel uncorfortable with it. Are you sure you know SHODAN? because i am pretty sure that regardless of the gender of the player, having a dominatrix that treats you like an insect, who constantly expects you to do your best of the best like a overbearing mother AND who speaks non-stop about her magnificience, may unnerv someone.
well, i can only think of beyond good and evil, which needs a sequel harder than EA needs someone FROM the games industry in the directors board.
because Jade is awesome and has my respect boner.
because Jade is awesome and has my respect boner.