Tropes vs. Women Protagonists

[Seneschal]

*snip*

I do believe it's done with the best of intention. There are always issues in narratives of whether you use an accurate depiction, in which case people will be unsure if you're doing it for accuracy or because of actual sexism; or if you do something like that to point out that you're conscious of the issues, but it comes across as a bit condescending.

There's no perfect way to go because showing a gender utopia would not necessarily be as compelling as showing inequality, if it's addressed. And there are always problems of coming across as preachy.

Bah, Humbug.

It can't actually be avoided in this medium. Hamhandedly dumping an implausible gender utopia on the audience in a film will raise eyebrows, because we need the protagonist to have something oppressing them, giving them a reason to take up arms. But we begin playing a game with different assumptions, namely that we have as much agency as possible. We are willing to surrender agency if that itself is a plot point (e.g. the famous BioShock bit), but generally we feel insulted if the game doesn't let us do something, or if it doesn't hide that fact from us (e.g. we don't get mad at cliffs and fences obstructing our way out of the map, but invisible walls frustrate us).

The same goes for gender options - we can watch Game of Thrones and not be offended at the limited roles of female characters (because the sexism is present, crucial to the story, and well-addressed), but if BioWare implemented the same sexism in the Dragon Age character creation process (as if they hadn't been inspired by GRRM enough), that would set us off, because we are willing to tolerate some implausibility and handwaving as long as we get to play.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

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That's the problem you see we can't enjoy the gameplay because we are being asked to play in the art style equivalent of a seedy strip club.

If the seedy strip club wasn't there then we would enjoy the gameplay so much more...

snip

'female hypoagency' is a load of rubbish mainly because it assumes that some things belong to men, like gaming, as default. Which just isn't the case. Gaming doesn't belong to men as much as books or voting.

I've been gaming longer than a lot of guys who claim this bullshit is fact have been alive. Also I find your idea of female power fantasy extremely sexist.

In fact I've had it up to here with 15 year old COD brodudes telling my opinion isn't welcome in a hobby I have been a part of for 25 years. How about they just sod off. Seriously.

 

[Seneschal]

snip

That's the problem you see we can't enjoy the gameplay because we are being asked to play in the art style equivalent of a seedy strip club.

If the seedy strip club wasn't there then we would enjoy the gameplay so much more...

snip

'female hypoagency' is a load of rubbish mainly because it assumes that some things belong to men, like gaming, as default. Which just isn't the case. Gaming doesn't belong to men as much as books or voting.

I've been gaming longer than a lot of guys who claim this bullshit is fact have been alive. Also I find your idea of female power fantasy extremely sexist.

In fact I've had it up to here with 15 year old COD brodudes telling my opinion isn't welcome in a hobby I have been a part of for 25 years. How about they just sod off. Seriously.

The video isn't about that. It merely postulates that certain traits (acting-by-proxy in females; taking charge and risks in males) were evolutionarily selected for and then passed down in early human history, for very simple reasons (female reproduction requires a healthy body for a sustained amount of time, which forces women to be careful, while men simply need to be proactive to spread their genes).

That doesn't justify the "COD brodudes", nor does it make the hobby "theirs". The video never states that all women should have the same power fantasy of manipulating people from behind the curtain, but it does offer an explanation as to why Charmed and The Craft are female-oriented, while 24 is male-oriented, and not the other way around.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

It's a stereotype though and stereotypes never do anyone any good.

Women aren't trying to 'invade male spaces' because they are not 'male spaces' to begin with they belong to everyone. I don't have a go at bronies for watching and influencing My Little Pony just because 'women watched it first' it's fucking ridiculous.

 

[the7ofswords]

"There's room for everyone in this hobby, and we can do better than we're doing now."

"Women want to play too."

"These are all good questions, and they don't have simple answers. More importantly, they can really only be answered by talking to women - preferably in a safe forum away from the screaming murlocs."


Those three statements right there sum it all up nicely.


Now, Sarkeesian has her own focus, sure, but she has every right to focus on the specific factors that interest her. Personally, I'm interested to see what she has to say in the end. The fact that so many people threw such a fit shows that some people must feel threatened by her questions. If someone decided to do a study on the effects and treatment of, oh ... let's say skin cancer, would it be normal for people researching heart disease or breast cancer to throw a fit, because they don't feel skin cancer should be a topic of research until their pet disease had enough research money first?

And the fact that so many people came out in support, and donated far more than she needed or even asked for doesn't prove some kind of malicious intent on her part?quite the contrary. It proves that that her topic of interest has really struck a chord with a lot of people.

I agree that there aren't nearly enough good female protagonists or antagonists or even characters in general in video games or movies or TV shows. Part of that is just due to unfamiliarity, ignorance, laziness and just lack of interest on the part of content creators. The solution is to get more women involved in the creation process.

We are seeing the beginnings of this now, so despite the odd backlash, I think this situation really IS going to get better over time. There is plenty of room for all kinds of media, aimed at many different tastes without having any particular segment feeling left out.

 

[Legion]

snip

It's a stereotype though and stereotypes never do anyone any good.

Women aren't trying to 'invade male spaces' because they are not 'male spaces' to begin with they belong to everyone. I don't have a go at bronies for watching and influencing My Little Pony just because 'women watched it first' it's fucking ridiculous.

I do not disagree with you, but most of the women I know would. Pretty much every female I know thinks gaming is a 'guys' thing, and that it's one of those things you just roll your eyes at and hope they get over it.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

It's a stereotype though and stereotypes never do anyone any good.

Women aren't trying to 'invade male spaces' because they are not 'male spaces' to begin with they belong to everyone. I don't have a go at bronies for watching and influencing My Little Pony just because 'women watched it first' it's fucking ridiculous.

I do not disagree with you, but most of the women I know would. Pretty much every female I know thinks gaming is a 'guys' thing, and that it's one of those things you just roll your eyes at and hope they get over it.

Then the females you know are lame and also boring

 

[Seneschal]

snip

It's a stereotype though and stereotypes never do anyone any good.

Funny thing to say after generalizing male gamers as "CoD brodudes". And yes, you did; according to you, the main reason why "CoD brodudes" are noxious to females in gaming is supposedly their masculinity, which is inherently intolerant of femininity. However, this ignores the fact that the few brodudes that you criticise treat other males equally bad, essentially meaning that you mistake their general rudeness for misogyny in gamer culture as a whole. Just how many screaming 15-year-olds did you encounter in comparison to the actual number of gamers you know of? Have they damaged you in any important way? Did you attribute their rudeness to their penises immediately, or after you had ignored the fact that they're: a) teenagers, b) playing a competitive game, c) under the protection of anonymity?

Now, I think girlwriteswhat is way too protective of the "male identity", apparently blaming women for wanting to switch places with men without having fought and toiled these last 40,000 years. I don't agree with her on that, and I don't like the idea that males need a place of their own or their identity crumbles. And I do support an equal divide between male and female videogame protagonists. But she's spot on when she accuses women of simply not enrolling in game designs schools in big enough numbers - the overwhelmingly male perspective in games won't change if female game designers don't show up. It's a matter of pure choice, there are no formal barriers in becoming a female designer, except if the very presence of males in the industry is somehow "revolting".

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

The thing is there ARE women in games design and saying that, because they aren't the majority, we have no right to expect our sex to be treated with some sort of decency is stupid. Stephen King and Joss Whedon seem to manage okay at writing decent female characters. Besides that the fact that you are only allowed to have an opinion on something is if you are a developer is bloody ridiculous.

I wasn't referencing 'CODbrodudes' in reference to receiving abuse I'm just sick of being told by such 'gamers' that I have less of a stake or a right to an opinion than them because they have a dick, usually on forums.

I also read recently that a independent game company has a majority of female staff. The owner explained that when their previous employer was bought out by a large publisher they gave all the equally qualified male applicants new jobs and didn't even call the women back. The independent guy then recruited the women he had worked with before the buyout.

So there's still some gender discrimination in the gaming industry.

 

[Morbira]

My only gripe with Sarkeesian is that she's essentially a no-name with no more authority on the subject than any other regular gamer (besides the vaguest point of her being female), but now she's been given a lump sum of serious cash to produce Youtube videos. I cannot possibly fathom a reason as to why we, the audience, should remotely care about her opinions, seeing as how she has no background or prior relevant experience to convince me that what she has to say is credible and worth my time. It comes off less as a passion project and more as though she's taking advantage of a hot button issue, and to see someone take over $500k from backers for a series of Op-Eds just feels dirty and leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Seneschal]

snip

The thing is there ARE women in games design and saying that, because they aren't the majority, we have no right to expect our sex to be treated with some sort of decency is stupid. Stephen King and Joss Whedon seem to manage okay at writing decent female characters. Besides that the fact that you are only allowed to have an opinion on something is if you are a developer is bloody ridiculous.

I wasn't referencing 'CODbrodudes' in reference to receiving abuse I'm just sick of being told by such 'gamers' that I have less of a stake or a right to an opinion than them because they have a dick, usually on forums.

I also read recently that a independent game company has a majority of female staff. The owner explained that when their previous employer was bought out by a large publisher they gave all the equally qualified male applicants new jobs and didn't even call the women back. The independent guy then recruited the women he had worked with before the buyout.

So there's still some gender discrimination in the gaming industry.

Nowhere did I say that you're not entitled to an opinion if you're not a designer, I said that it's unfair to expect a 90% male-crewed industry to represent both sides without bias. We're talking hundreds of thousands of people, hundreds of them for every project, not a few solitary writers. Women are supposedly 40% or more of the gaming audience, but they seem to shirk the responsibility of actually taking part in the creative process, and I seriously doubt that kind of disparity between the number of female gamers and designers is just "patriarchal oppression", obstructing game schools, and sexist employers. The fact that game developers are predominantly male isn't a male-generated problem - women weren't barred from entering when the medium was in its infancy, and early games weren't nearly as male-oriented as today's. Saying that "we don't push enough women into the industry" and that things aren't "welcoming" enough for them is blatant objectification, treating women as if their choice in higher education is something to be "steered" and not really theirs to choose anyway.

So yes, I think if women make up half the gaming audience, they should choose to make up half of the designers. Demanding fair and equal representation is otherwise unrealistic, though demonstrating that there's a market for concessions (e.g. the FemShep thing) should be encouraged. And I definitely wouldn't expect games to get less pandering, but they will ideally start to pander to both genders in equal measure.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

women weren't barred from entering when the medium was in its infancy,

Yeah I'm sure there were loads of Japanese women working at Nintendo in the late 70's... oh wait...no.

There is more and more women working in games but saying that we have to be treated like dirt until we have an equal share is just ludicrous.

Would you accept that 'oh it's just the majority bias' excuse if we were talking about racism, of course not, so why is sexism okay?

Frankly I would love to be in games design and 'the creative process' but the fact is I live in the North of England and there ain't a whole lot of games design schools here. Should that give me no right to complain about stupid stereotypes in games, hell no.

 

[Tippy]

There is more and more women working in games but saying that we have to be treated like dirt until we have an equal share is just ludicrous.

And implying that every single game ever made has treated women like dirt is equally ludicrous. There ARE games which have great female leads, and most of those games HAVE been made by men.

The percentage of games/media where women are treated like dirt will reduce as the percentage of women involved in the creative process of games/media increases.

It's true that women didn't invent the first gaming systems, games, etc and prety much the entire culture was founded overwhelmingly by men. But times have changed, you said so yourself, and males don't "own" gaming (just like males don't "own" light bulbs despite Thomas Edison, Henry Woodward and Mathew Evans being entirely behind it's invention).

Everything males have invented has been for everyone to share. Sure at first they were posessive of their inventions and probably insisted that it was a "male" thing (e.g. women driving cars was once frowned upon), but eventually they opened up views and allowed everyone to do it.

The same thing is slowly happening with video games, you just need to give it time. That's right, time.

Frankly I would love to be in games design and 'the creative process' but the fact is I live in the North of England and there ain't a whole lot of games design schools here.

Stop repeatedly bringing your personal life into the picture to argue against everyone's points, especially when they're referring to a far more general picture. Stop taking every statement as a personal insult directed towards you. Stop using your life as an example of what you think the majority (or even a good chunk) of other females' lives are like. Stop ending every single post with "I still have the right to argue and criticize, ain't nobody going to take away my right, etc etc". Nobody is trying to silence you, and even if they are they have obviously been failing so far (lol). Nobody is taking away your personal rights or even suggesting the idea, but in most of your posts on this topic you just keep saying the same thing over and over.
You've been gaming for a long time, we get it, stop rubbing it in our faces again and again. No 15-year-old CoD players are telling you to shut up here (yes I've read your other posts here). Nobody is rubbing their gaming experience in your face.
This is the exact "look at me I'm a gamer girl" attitude that I thought feminists were AGAINST. Your personal life story as a gamer is interesting (as is everyone else's), but not something you can dissmiss whole arguments on.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I'm so sorry that my existence ruins your little bubble of entitlement and sexism. I'll keep posting the same things in these threads over and over if I have to until you guys get it through your heads that gaming doesn't belong to you and women have it perfectly in our right to point out when the demeaning cheesecake goes too far. Nowhere did I say every game treats us like dirt you thought that bit up yourself.

When you say things about 'women' you are saying them about me so hell yeah I'm going to wade in with my personal experiences. There are probably a vast number of women in the same position as me, as we all like saying on these forums you are never the only one!

If you want to throw names of inventors around and prove how vastly superior men are, okay, Ada Lovelace (1815?1852), who is sometimes credited as being the first computer programmer.

Is it okay if I criticise games now? Will the big strong man let me?

 

[Tippy]

I'll keep posting the same things in these threads over and over if I have to until you guys get it through your heads that gaming doesn't belong to you and women have it perfectly in our right to point out when the demeaning cheesecake goes too far.

Back to dismissing arguments claiming "blah blah blah, it's my right" while actually saying nothing at all: Check.

If you want to throw names of inventors around and prove how superior men are, okay, Ada Lovelace (1815?1852), who is sometimes credited as being the first computer programmer.

Is it okay if I criticise games now?

Automatic accusations of sexism and mysoginy: Check.

Here, re-worded just for you: "Just because Ada Lovelace was sometimes credited as being the first computer programmer doesn't mean that females "own" programming".
There, happy?

snip

I'm so sorry that my existence ruins your little bubble of entitlement and sexism.[/quote]
Whoa, I think I hit the nail on the head with you:
> Again, assuming everything is aimed at you personally
> Anyone who argues/disagrees with you is automatically misogynistic and sexist

Perfect

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Yeah because you have been the complete picture of an equalist in the other posts I have seen you make.../sarcasm.

 

[Tippy]

snip

Yeah because you have been the complete picture of an equalist in the other posts I have seen you make.../sarcasm.

I try ^_^

You are equally sexist and discriminatory against all males.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Yeah because you have been the complete picture of an equalist in the other posts I have seen you make.../sarcasm.

I try ^_^

You are equally sexist and discriminatory against all males.

No I'm not, I even agreed that making men move on planes was ridiculous. Don't just make things up -.-

Of course I take it personally I'm a woman aren't I. You are talking about my gender. If I started saying bad things about all men I'm sure you would take that personally too.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

No I'm not, I even agreed that making men move on planes was ridiculous. Don't just make things up -.-

Leave it be, he's not worth arguing with.

But I will agree with just *one* of his points, which is that things will take time to change, and they are slowly changing. Game devs, even if overwhelmingly male, are slowly starting to grasp what embodies a decent female lead (or even support) character. Females are very slowly getting more interested in game development, even if most programming/3D design classes these days seem to be so male-dominated.

So relax, play your favorite titles and give it time...no battle against discrimination has EVER ended overnight.

Before you remind us that you're still going to complain and you still have the right to complain, remember that is the entire point of this article/thread. It's good to see a woman voice her feelings because as the ending line of the original artical said, this topic needs more women speaking up about it.
So why not relax a bit and wait for other females to say what they must say about it? The internet is all about anyonimity, but in cases like these it's not a bad idea just to voice people's gender when they make a post so we can see where they're coming from. It helps add perspective so you don't end up being the last and only woman battling it out in these threads all the time.

I'm a guy ^_^

Of course I take it personally I'm a woman aren't I. You are talking about my gender. If I started saying bad things about all men I'm sure you would take that personally too.

Hmm, that could be a weakness especially on the internet, something people like Tippy could easily exploit.
I'm personally impossible to offend. Talk shit about my gender, my race, my looks, etc all day long, it will be virtually impossible to get me reacting aggressively or even taking the insults on a personal level. I will simply laugh and not bother responding, it wouldn't be worth my energy. Especially words I read on the internet, lol. Really, what is the point of taking any of these discussions to a personal level?

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

It's just the fact that even if you complain about anything sexism related in games you get people jumping down your throat.

The majority of people recognise that there is a problem both sides of the screen so why is it so frowned upon to draw attention to it as Ms Sarkeesian has done.

It's this knee jerk reaction that bothers me, as if calling some portrayals of women sexist is some how shaming the male gamer and calling him sexist by proxy when that isn't true at all. I like playing Mario games and enjoy them but I would still say that Princess Peach is a pretty outdated character trope. So I like the game but recognise there is a problem at the same time that's all we are asking.