Tropes vs Women SECOND VIDEO - "Damsel in Distress: Part 2"

[LetalisK]

I think in reality the majority of them were AAA games, and really the writing in those games are just considered to be shit in general, not just when it comes to women. People may praise those games, but it's not usually for the story, it's more about the gameplay.

Ok let me think. Well there's Mass Effect, Fallout, Skyrim, the Walking Dead (I guess you could count Clementine but I let her off the hook on account of being nine) the Halo games, the two Bioshock games, Persona 4, my friend has been showing me Suikoden II and so far I haven't seen anything like that there. It's funny because most of these games (I said most Skyrim) are the ones that tended to get praised for stories. Really I think the problem is less that there's a stigma against women in the industry (Although that one Jim episode showed that that IS a problem) I think it's just more of a problem of video games still being only a couple of decades old and many developers are still learning to write good stories. I don't like the Damsel in Distress trope either, but not because it's misogynistic. It's just plain lazy. I'm sure a talented writer could pull it off in an interesting way, but most AAA game writers kinda phone it in.

I would concur with Walking Dead, but it's still possible for a nine year old to be a damsel in distress. Rather, I don't think she qualifies because she is a very fleshed out character with agency and isn't just there to provide motivation. Even if she didn't exist, there would still be lots of motivation for Lee within the story, her existence simply adds a new layer of depth to the story. As for Bioshock, I would disagree. The Big Daddy - Little Sister relationship is the quintessential damsel in distress trope and almost makes me think it's intentional so as to be a commentary on the large, grunting, unquestioning, faceless protector(the protagonist in many games) - weak female dynamic that seems to be accepted as sensible by default(which seems even more likely considering the game's twist). (Edit: Snipped because I got my tropes, or themes or whatever, mixed up) I think Bioshock 2 tried to develop more with the unquestioning protector and weak female dynamic, but I don't think it was handled well. Mind you, I'm not saying it's bad that they employed the trope. Even if it wasn't their intention to add a level of commentary to the game via the trope, there are only so many hours in a day and sometimes you need to just settle with "Because" so you can move the story along.

My biggest criticism of Anita'a work comes from that last sentence, actually. She sees the DiD trope being born mostly out of casual misogyny, I see it being born mostly out of a mixture of tradition and, like you said, sometimes laziness. Back in the ye olde days of games, you didn't have a whole lot of time or resources, if any at all, to set up an epic story with intricate and involved backdrops and motivations. You had to get up and go, thus enter the quick fix of DiD. Those making games today are those that grew up with those older games and DiD is what they know. The good developers expand beyond it and explore other things while other ones simply stick with what they know or just don't want to devote resources to it. From my perspective, I see less and less of blatant DiD as the years go by as the writing ability of game companies gets more and more sophisticated.

 

[Mikeyfell]

Her videos are bad in that "No good for anything" way, but I love to watch the response videos to her tripe. Those are funny as fuck.


I feel like pointing out, she's not wrong... she's just stupid.

 

[Zaire_Zero]

I dunno. One thing I felt uncertain about was the idea that they're more desirable because they're disempowered. Like they're sexier by being locked up. And I was always neutral about it because I understood early games needed to set arbitrary goals for conflict. And at some point I can sympathize with saving a person's life... She could've been my sister or mother I had no context for Pauline actually it's kind of funny in retrospect(I probably just have issues?
She mentions it's important to enjoy these works but still think about them critically but I still feel like she paints games in a bad light even like how she singled out Faith and Jade as like the only two good female protagonists but I feel like femshep and player created female characters are ignored entirely. I dunno. I've tried and failed to say this before but it's the presentation of the message I've always taken issue with. I mean like, I've seen this with the amazing atheist and the vlog brothers alike, where sometimes they get "too passionate" and or sometimes angry or serious and emotionally close to the material at hand creating a fundamental and undefinable bias that borderlines sensationalism. The same reason I feel like she get's this wrong is the same reason there's so much backlash against her even. People favor idealising their nostalgia and this threatens that picture perfect innocence. And somehow I feel like it's that innocence and purity of the nostalgia, like mario doesn't have to be a part of this discussion because it's mario and it's an exception, an anomaly of popular culture and is thus exempt from critical analysis. But I feel like that's true more because there's nothing really critical to analyze.
So I'm not saying she has no point, there's kind of no denying it, that's one of the things that I felt a little annoyed by but I guess her audience is larger than just us, but I feel like saying "thanks captain obvious." But I want less sensationalist montages and warnings for the children. I feel like at the end of the day she wants to create change. And people are typically resistant to change. However the trick here is discerning the type of change and just how much change she'll actually make if any. (of that type...) If she's shooting for awareness, she's got that. If she want's the game industry to change, that's like throwing sand at a boulder. And again what type of change. Is she want's peach in overalls I'm not so sure that's going to happen. If she want's to see more games with female protagonists well, she's welcome to kick start them herself. If she wants no more damsels, well, there's too much deep human psychology to be found in saving women and that's never going to change, never mind those concepts individually. I honestly don't feel like it's bad in the wrong hands, and it goes back to the disempowerment and objectification. But again, when you're trapped there's not much you can do, and I'm all for saving lives as an objective, and if that's a female I'm emotionally connected to; this does make for an extra emotionally potent motivation? Right? I can follow that train of thought... But I really want to stress that doesn't, or rather shouldn't make the person more attractive sexually. Peach being in a tower doesn't fetishize anything, but I'd still rather she's not in the tower and it's not like Luigi or Bowser are going to do it for you. But it is worth saying this has happened and happened wrongly, like that star fox moment was really freaking painful. And I guess it is worth looking at this to know how to avoid it but I don't quite feel like that's how the information is being presented, just my take away. Again. I just feel like she's talking down to me, and I feel degraded listening to her, like she knew all of those trolls would watch so she's got this annoying smug arrogance that I can't help but pick up on I mean I love these messages so much I just fucking hate the messenger. Or the Woman in the refrigerator bit; I think I'd be fine if it was just the "person in the refrigerator" But the "no one in the refrigerator" killing off a partner in deliberate intentional hands could be a powerful and defining moment of a character and their arch regardless of where it is. It doesn't matter if that's the hook, or the grand finale, both would work; it is the plot it doesn't exist "only there to move the plot along" And it'd work just fine with the roles reversed. "Your husband is brutally murdered and you have to rescue your son." Well goddammit at least he died like a real man. And I would like to see that, and again, she's right about the over saturation, but I get mad at something when I head "and brutally murdered" like a broken record for that long. I just.
GAH.
IT's like Hank said. Anger feeds only more anger. And I'm just bored with her one sided "discussion" it's still "entertainment" and I can "analyze it critically" as much as I want.

 

[Colin Bagley]

The reason why female characters are hurt to motivate male characters, (give a reason for all the fun violence against usual male baddies.), Is because we as a species tend to give more of a shit about women than men.
Imagine if all of the women getting hurt in this were middle, age, cubby guys. Oh, and make them all white too, for good measure. Dress them however you want. Even if you also make them a relative of the protagonist, would you still give as much of a shit? Not likely. Not without some Bioware-level writing.

On a side note, if anybody ever abducts Anita, I wonder if she'd want some (probably male) police officers to come save her? Or if she'd rather be left to work things out for herself?

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

My main experience of games of the last decade or so, basically this console generation on the way out, is just watching them being eviscerated one after the next by personalities like Jim and Yahtzee, trying to gleam what is and isn't worth giving a go. Everything I've seen reviewed is very samey and just like the many grizzly scenes depicted in this video.

Mick, you need to check out Destructoid's Memory Card feature. It's written by Chad Concelmo, and it highlights everything that is great about games as an interactive medium. If I were to make the case that video games are art, I'd rip off Memory Card wholesale.

http://www.destructoid.com/the-memory-card-20-the-message-in-the-glass-48554.phtml
http://www.destructoid.com/the-memory-card-50-a-shocking-loss-117139.phtml

Only problem is 90% of them are Big Fucking Spoilers.

 

[floppylobster]

I'm not going to watch this because of the spoilers. I believe in equality of the sexes and I've played video games all my life. Having not watched the actual video I guess I could be way off at what the problem is here - but my thinking is that if women don't like the way women are portrayed in video games then more women should make video games.

The industry is 80-90% (possibly more) male dominated. And not through any 'men's club' attitude, local schools teaching the programming skills in my area have specifically gone out of their way to target women because so few decide to pursue that career.

You want different games? Go out and make them. Show everyone how it's done. At the very least you'll create a game you're happy with.

 

[Tien Shen]

Did Anita imply in this recent video that video games are responsible for domestic violence against women as if there wasn't violence against women prior to video games?

 

[Darken12]

Did Anita imply in this recent video that video games are responsible for domestic violence against women as if there wasn't violence against women prior to video games?

No. She's saying that these constant instances of violence against women in video games for the sake of cheap drama trivialises serious issues. Instead of treating violence against women with respect and gravity, video games focus on the shock factor and how bad it is for the male hero. All this serves to trivialise and minimise a very serious issue that continues to happen to this day.

 

[Jandau]

Cool video, well argumented, better than over 90% of gaming shows out there. I agree with most of what is said, even if I do find it to be a bit one sided. However, it does what it sets out to and helps drive home how pervasive these tropes are. Also, I laughed my pants off at the look in her eyes when she points out that "The wife is his arm" in Bionic Commando...

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Did Anita imply in this recent video that video games are responsible for domestic violence against women as if there wasn't violence against women prior to video games?

No, she didn't. Thanks for asking.

(Look at it this way: If you see violence and intervene, what message does that send? If you see violence, pat the perpetrator on the back, and say, "broads, they deserve it," what message does that send? There may have been violence before, but what you say has a consequence on the discourse, even if it's a small one. It's something we should be aware of, and making people aware is part of what criticism does.)

 

[likalaruku]

I'm not opposed to the distressed hostage trope. I just think it's poorly & lazily executed. Speaking of executed, the "Mercy Killing" of the hostage...That can be done away with entirely for all I care; it just screams "we're too lazy to develop this character beyond plot point & see no further use for it."

I always prefer the hostage to remain alive. The hostage role need not always be the cut-&-paste situation of the female love interest, indeed a Dude In Distress is far more creative; the hostage could be the bumbling unlucky comic relief, the hero caught unawares, a snarky braggart getting scared straight, the best friend, a parent/child/sibling, a beloved pet, or an old enemy to befriend. Women would like the Dude in Distress & does a man feel any less manly for saving a man who couldn't save himself?

To be honest, I think a pet is the ideal replacement for a hostage that will receive no further character development, because let's be honest; cute animals tend to stir more emotions than undeveloped human characters. You can also encounter a love interest after incidently rescuing their pet. & hey, you rescued an animal, so PETA won't ***** about it as long as the animal lives.

 

[barbzilla]

Well, I will say that she is at least progressing as a ... what is she? (seriously, i'm not sure what to call her, it isn't journalist), well whatever it is, she is getting better at it. The issue being, there is still no real point to the video. What we are seeing is that video games have issues framing and progressing women in general, the problem is the same can be said of men in videogames. Guess what, video games are immature and tend towards selfishness. The only reason we have a plot at all is to let you do silly crap with a gun, sword, ball, beam, whatever in the most violent fashion available (for the most part).

We could sum the whole video series up with a hearty shout of "Grow Up!" at the developers, but I doubt we would be heard.

Edit: She does have one point though, Women do need more agency in video games.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

and also that there is nothing inherently "evil" about using females as a plot device in fantasy/fiction because it if were really such a wrong thing then there wouldn't be such a huge market existing for them.

There once existed a huge market for slaves. Surely that couldn't have been wrong, right?

 

[BeeGeenie]

Hmm... She has some points. The "wife death, daughter kidnapped" section was pretty telling of just how tired these tropes are, and how desperately the game industry needs a jolt of creativity.

I'm thinking a version of God of War that stars Boudicca getting revenge on the Romans... for the... rape of her daughters hmm...
Dang it, even history can't give me a badass female protagonist that doesn't involve other women being victimized as a motivation!

There's Joan d'Arc and Olga(queen of the rus/russians in 900-1000 AD somewhere IIRC. May be wrong on that) that I can think of. I don't think either was victimized... Well except Joan being burned on the stake, but the latter was appearantly the prime example of someone you should never get on the bad side of.

Excellent finds! Now you're thinking with Gurl Power! XD

Joan totally counts, since she wouldn't get burned until the Epilogue, and Olga is one bad mutha...although the "evil queen" thing might be venturing into Disney territory if they screw it up, so don't pitch it to EA.

 

[JLink]

Before this series she actually had comments+ratings enabled on all her videos and she pretty much got swamped by people who either disagreed with her stuff, or were violently trolled/flamed the hell out her (because they disagreed with her stuff, why else)...plus the ratings didn't paint a good picture either. Overall the reaction was negative.

Her response to that was...you guessed it, disabling both comments and ratings on all past videos and every video since then lol. A lot of people won't even give the time of day to sit through a Youtube video that has comments/ratings disabled beacuse that is typically the first telltale sign that the video is either full of bullshit or trying to waste the viewer's time.
And while Anita certainly isn't going for that (although the first video did have it's share of bullshit), she isn't gaining herself any plus points either by showing that her work can't stand against public scrutiny and she can't handle the reactions. Her loss in the end.

I guess overall it's a good thing because she no longer has a pool of troll/flame comments from randoms on the internet to show herself being "victimized", she did a pretty clever job to make that work in her favor last time.

True, she did have comments on, but they all had to be approved by her before they would go in the comments section. And all of the comments she allowed were agreeing with her. Every single one. I find it hard to believe that there wasn't a single comment submitted that disagreed with her without being disrespectful.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

The nicest thing I can say is that it was better than the first one.

This one at least TRIED to bring up decent points.

I mean, it failed horribly, but an attempt is still better than nothing.

Lot's of incorrect things, making casual links that don't exist, bringing up and repeating NO DUH points, dismissing important counterpoints and once again hiding behind a video without likes/dislikes or comments. She didn't bring much up the first time and she still hasn't given me a reason to take her seriously.

In less than 10 minutes, Jim Sterling offered more insight and solutions than Anita has in almost an hour of video, that apparently took hundreds of thousands of dollars to make, despite looking EXACTLY like everything else she has done.

On the plus side, I can't wait to see Thunderfoot shred this one as well.

 

[Yuuki]

and also that there is nothing inherently "evil" about using females as a plot device in fantasy/fiction because it if were really such a wrong thing then there wouldn't be such a huge market existing for them.

There once existed a huge market for slaves. Surely that couldn't have been wrong, right?

/facepalm

I wrote this in the exactly same post, how the hell did you miss it:

And before some twat brings up "well the heroin market is pretty huge and that's evil", I meant a completely harmless market based on fiction where people purely have a choice whether or not to buy the product and don't murder each other over it.

 

[Shingeki no Gingerbeard]

I'm not terribly impressed with the naming of her own tropes, or the lack of citations for her statistics (regardless of how accurate they may or may not be). She has a nasty habit of making good points and not refuting the counter-argument, such as how video games do not exist within a vacuum. Of course they don't! They are media to be consumed for entertainment, just as books, movies, and television are. We could all argue whether or not art imitates life (or vice versa) until the cows not only come home, but they are turned into all-beef patties. What she blatantly ignores is how video games are an interactive media, and not a passive one. The introspection often found in "art house" films or typical Oscar contenders just wouldn't cut it in a media dependent on players pressing buttons to make the game do something.

To quote civil-rights activist Audre Lorde, "There are no new ideas. There are only new ways of making them felt." Tropes such as the DiD are ancient. They resonate with us on a level we, as a people, can't quite comprehend. Is it old? Yes. Tired? Definitely. Does any of this matter so long as it serves the overall narrative? Heck no. I don't mind that Kratos murdered his wife and daughter because the same thing happened to Heracles, and both were punished by the Gods as a result. In the end, both still elevated themselves to heroes by gaining kleos, and eventually reached godhood. I don't play God of War for romance or deep characterization (that's what Catherine is for); I play it because the guy on the cover is a big enough badass to give Ares a run for his drachma.

What miss Sarkeesian fails to realize is that video games are only a medium. They are easily subdivided into varying genres, each subject to their own tropes. Many of those genres are also found in other media, such as Noir crime films and novels. I'm not sure there's enough time or people to find all of the detrimental portrayals of women (and men) in all the dime-store novels published over the years, but I'd bet dollars to donuts they far outweigh those found in video games. Even if we just compared the past 30 years, I wouldn't be surprised if they still managed to beat out video games.

It's just sad that someone with her intelligence doesn't realize most people can differentiate between fiction and reality. As a rational adult, I know action scenes and motivations for John McClain in Die Hard are unrealistic. I still watch it every Christmas because, well, it's a Christmas movie. As I stated before, it's all entertainment; and the developers and publishers know this. They design and market everything right down to the box art. Authors and play/screenwriters, distributors and studios, they're all guilty of it.

At the end of the day, all we've ever done is judge a book by its cover.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

and also that there is nothing inherently "evil" about using females as a plot device in fantasy/fiction because it if were really such a wrong thing then there wouldn't be such a huge market existing for them.

There once existed a huge market for slaves. Surely that couldn't have been wrong, right?

/facepalm

I wrote this in the exactly same post, how the hell did you miss it:

And before some twat brings up "well the heroin market is pretty huge and that's evil", I meant a completely harmless market based on fiction where people purely have a choice whether or not to buy the product and don't murder each other over it.

Except the point she's making is that it's not completely harmless, because it potentially affects some of the social values that people might acquire. Yeah, I know it's a first world problem, but assuming that because there's no physical harm being done to anyone that a market must clearly be self-regulating for only good issues strikes me as a little naive.

But congratulations for snaring me in the trap, nonetheless. I had a good laugh when I realised I missed that part of your post.

 

[Eddie the head]

What on earth are you talking about? A fallacy is a mistake in logic. Ad hominem is only a fallacy if I say someone's argument is wrong BECAUSE they are stupid. It's not a fallacy if I infer that someone is stupid BECAUSE of something they say. The second case would just be drawing conclusions on someone based on their actions, which in many cases is valid.

Second, why should it not help my case if I'm just as likely to be correct while being confrontational as if I were not? It should only matter if you can't follow an argument and are easily swayed by rhetoric.

Edit: Anyway, 'which' doesn't have a t.

If you don't mean it as a Ad hominem then I have to wonder why you put it in? Just to be a dick? Well that's not helpful at all. It's needless and only serves to divide.

Second It's something called a bias. If you attack someone flat out by insulting them they are more likely to hold to the original belief. I want to say it's the "backfire effect" although I am not sure. Simply put people are swayed by rhetoric. Should they be? Irrelevant they are.

Look if it's working for you fine you can continue to act how you will. But I am willing to guess you are causing more harm then good.