Agema said:
There are literally millions of people - implicitly over a hundred million in the USA alone, according to polls - who believe that there is very good evidence that the president has done something significantly wrong. This goes to public confidence in the system. Further to that, there are a large load of civil servants and legal experts who are also deeply concerned the president has done something seriously wrong, which reflects professional opinion. Putting this down to mere Trump hatred is not reasonable.
Literally millions of people, including legal experts and civil servants, draw their opinions directly from the headlines of the New York Times. It doesn't reflect professional opinion that people now are questioning that when the news told them to.
It does reflect professional opinion that civil servants thought there might be a problem and sought legal counsel before going through with Trump's requests. It also reflects professional opinion that they were advised to proceed with the requests. You can't ignore that the people ultimately responsible for enacting Trump's wishes considered all these questions before doing anything. And that opinion is worth 1000x more than someone trying to be a pundit months later.
All the people you're arguing with here, for instance: we are not stupid, we are not hopelessly blinded by hate or political bias, and it is nothing short of showing contempt to think we can't even be allowed a thorough investigation. Letting potentially criminal activity slide because "fuck the opposition" is not reasonable or responsible.
I'm not against a thorough investigation, I feel I've said that several times, but House Democrats aren't trying for a thorough investigation. It's less so screw them for investigating than it is screw them for not investigating. The first person to send the question of House subpoenas vs executive privilege to the courts last year was a man named Charles Kupperman, just trying to get a judge to decide the question in a way that protected him from legal and professional recourse. They scheduled the hearing in December, so House Democrats promptly withdrew the subpoena and moved to have the case dismissed because there was no subpoena anymore. The case was dismissed [https://www.courthousenews.com/former-national-security-official-loses-fight-over-house-subpoena/] in part because the House and President wanted it dismissed (against the continued insistence of Kupperman that there be an answer), but also because the question was made moot because articles of impeachment were already voted on. And what was half of those articles? Obstruction of Congress for not complying with subpoenas.
Do you realize the level of insanity here? They charged the president for the crime of not complying with subpoenas while actively lobbying the courts not to answer the question of whether they have that power. The House Democrats are not trying to be thorough, they are not trying to be just, they are not trying to be responsible. All they are doing is trying to gain power for themselves. That's it. So again, screw them.
It seems to me to be the antithesis of everything you, last year, were claiming were traditional Republican Party values of responsible, mature,sober governance. Those conversations where you argued Trump is a Democrat. And now you evidently seem to support your whole party being what you think the Democrats are like too. That suggests to me you don't really believe in those Republican values, you just want your side to win. (Fair enough, but you may as well just admit it.)
The whole party isn't doing that, just Trump. House Republicans haven't been protesting Democrats' subpoena power, they've been protesting their lack of subpoena power. Trump is the one telling people not to cooperate, but again, Trump acts like a Democrat so of course he is.
I don't think they should be ignoring subpoenas or withholding evidence. But I don't think you're really asking me that question, because you've asked it plenty of times and I've answered that I agree with the investigation, I think more than once. I agreed from the get-go that a thorough investigation was called for, so I highly doubt you think I'm against it. I think the real question you want answered is "why does tstorm823 not seem to care about Trump not cooperating with the investigation", and to that I refer back to "screw the Democrats". They aren't trying to really investigate, so as far as I'm concerned he isn't obstructing an investigation. And Trump's tactic of ignoring them and doing what he wants is straight from their playbook. He's ignoring valid subpoenas, the court would almost certainly decide to enforce them, but that would set a precedent that would work against Democrats in the future. It's not a great look for House Democrats if the court decides Trump can ignore subpoenas, but it's even worse for them in the long run if the opposite happens because they lose their ability to ignore Republicans when the roles are reversed. Trump ignoring subpoenas sets the stage for answering a legitimate constitutional question about the roles of House oversight and executive privilege. And now they aren't even going to answer it. And I cannot emphasize this enough,
screw the Democrats.
