UK General Election 4th July

Agema

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Several countries in Europe have some form of national service already, either militarially like Sweden and Switzerland or community based like France. I do not see why it is such a big issue.
The French version is just a voluntary, month-long thing. Countries are full of volunteering opportunities. You can join the armed forces cadets if you want the military, there are charities, volunteering in healthcare, Duke of Edinburgh scheme, etc. in a Summer holiday. That sort of thing is a pointless government programme that exists for show not effect.

If you want to properly shove someone into service, it needs to be proper service. And then all the problems above exist. It actually makes most sense in terms of defence, in terms of ensuring there are reservists with some hint of military experience - although even that is pretty marginal. A 30-year-old who did national service for a year when they are 18 will have forgotten pretty much everything useful except the very basics and some general principles, so effectively everything would need to be re-taught if they needed to be called-up. This is why many countries have reservist programs instead. If you've got sort of "part-timers" who do a bit of training and practice throughout the year alongside the regulars to keep things fresh, it's probably much more effective.
 

Thaluikhain

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The French version is just a voluntary, month-long thing. Countries are full of volunteering opportunities. You can join the armed forces cadets if you want the military, there are charities, volunteering in healthcare, Duke of Edinburgh scheme, etc. in a Summer holiday. That sort of thing is a pointless government programme that exists for show not effect.

If you want to properly shove someone into service, it needs to be proper service. And then all the problems above exist. It actually makes most sense in terms of defence, in terms of ensuring there are reservists with some hint of military experience - although even that is pretty marginal. A 30-year-old who did national service for a year when they are 18 will have forgotten pretty much everything useful except the very basics and some general principles, so effectively everything would need to be re-taught if they needed to be called-up. This is why many countries have reservist programs instead. If you've got sort of "part-timers" who do a bit of training and practice throughout the year alongside the regulars to keep things fresh, it's probably much more effective.
On a related note, if you had to conscript people, I'd not bother with the military stuff per se, for reasons you've given, but concentrate on the other skills that the military needs. How to shower, first aid, knots, etc. Then do the actual military training when the war happens, but you've got some of the stuff down already.

But that's just adding another year of high school where you stay in the Scouts, basically.
 

Silvanus

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well this is awful.
Luke Akehurst is truly a piece of shit, and this shows a clear current double standard: if a candidate promoted crisis actor conspiracy theories about Israeli citizens, they'd be deselected and expelled immediately. Yet the same behaviour is tolerated and overlooked for other groups.
 

Hades

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To be somewhat fair to Sunak, the idea of national service isn't bad per se. With Russia being increasingly aggressive towards Europe and with one presidential candidate gleefully bragging about how he's going to betray Europe you can very much make the case for national service. The problem is that Sunak and the Tories aren't the ones that can make such an argument.

Its painfully clear that rather than any concern about Russia the policy is mainly there just to appeal to older voters who look down on the youth, and a wildly rich, kinda out of touch rich guy isn't really the person that says others should make sacrifices for the motherland. A party dominated by a class that typically dodges such national service and which has had undue contacts with Russia further hinders the Tories ability to pitch this policy.

What isn't helping their case either is that everyone in favor of national service are those that are already at an age where they don't have to do it. ''Screw you, got mine'' seems to be the basic reasoning for those people.
 

Silvanus

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To be somewhat fair to Sunak, the idea of national service isn't bad per se. With Russia being increasingly aggressive towards Europe and with one presidential candidate gleefully bragging about how he's going to betray Europe you can very much make the case for national service.
Well, you can make a case for strengthening defence. But national service does the opposite, creating an unwanted imposition that the armed forces have to accommodate with wasted training and money.
 

Hades

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So Farage's no running too. Signs are good that this will splinter the right but I'm not really feeling entirely optimistic. I think there's a fair chance Farage will get more votes than anticipated because people are so done with politics, and somehow conclude that the solution to decades of right wingers causing problems is to go even more to the right.

The Wilders effect.
 

Agema

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So Farage's no running too.
:rolleyes: I despair that anyone gives that despicable shit the time of day.

It's not just the meanness, bullying, and entitlement. It's that his grotesque attention-seeking is matched only by his laziness. He's happy to grandstand, posture, do interviews and jollies, but he's not prepared to any hard work. He left the boring task of running a party in unfanciable times to someone else, and then realised that there's a whole election's worth of political headlines going on without him, so kicks that guy out to grab his share of the news. Can you imagine him as an MP? Do you think he'd actually put in the hours reading bills, voting in Parliament, seeing to his constituency and all that? Of course he wouldn't. He'd just be lazing around 90% of the time, trying to scavenge media interviews and otherwise get his face plastered where he can.

In the same vein, that other prime narcissistic parasite who'd sell anyone and anything down the river for his self-aggrandisement, George Galloway. Fingers crossed they both lose in their constituencies.
 

Gergar12

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Several countries in Europe have some form of national service already, either militarially like Sweden and Switzerland or community based like France. I do not see why it is such a big issue.
Because France, and the Swiss street their citizens better.
 

Silvanus

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Things must be feeling pretty apocalyptic at Conservative Party HQ today.

Anyone familiar with the party will know that if there's one issue it's supporters will get very worked up about, it's veterans (and any perceived disrespect thereof). Hence why the Tory press reacted with fury when Jeremy Corbyn wore a suit they saw as insufficiently smart to a WW2 commemorative event.

Which brings us to the 80th anniversary of D-Day commemoration events in Normandy. Rishi Sunak was the only Head of Government to leave the commemoration events early, missing the International event, in order to.... pre-record an ITV campaign interview, which isn't due to be broadcast for 6 days.

Then it turned out that this slot was actually suggested by the PM's team, not by ITV.

Cue an enormous fucking storm. Its almost like a scandal specifically designed to outrage British conservatives as much as possible.
 

Thaluikhain

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Things must be feeling pretty apocalyptic at Conservative Party HQ today.

Anyone familiar with the party will know that if there's one issue it's supporters will get very worked up about, it's veterans (and any perceived disrespect thereof). Hence why the Tory press reacted with fury when Jeremy Corbyn wore a suit they saw as insufficiently smart to a WW2 commemorative event.

Which brings us to the 80th anniversary of D-Day commemoration events in Normandy. Rishi Sunak was the only Head of Government to leave the commemoration events early, missing the International event, in order to.... pre-record an ITV campaign interview, which isn't due to be broadcast for 6 days.

Then it turned out that this slot was actually suggested by the PM's team, not by ITV.

Cue an enormous fucking storm. Its almost like a scandal specifically designed to outrage British conservatives as much as possible.
Ah, I had read part of that story, not got all the context. Odd mood.
 

Baffle

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Anyone familiar with the party will know that if there's one issue it's supporters will get very worked up about, it's veterans (and any perceived disrespect thereof). Hence why the Tory press reacted with fury when Jeremy Corbyn wore a suit they saw as insufficiently smart to a WW2 commemorative event.
To be fair, it's really just something they pretend to get worked up about when they don't like the guy who's made a faux pas; Sunak would've got a pass if he wasn't so clearly fucked in July anyway.
 

Thaluikhain

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To be fair, it's really just something they pretend to get worked up about when they don't like the guy who's made a faux pas; Sunak would've got a pass if he wasn't so clearly fucked in July anyway.
If they did seriously have to be nice to veterans, and they did get national service to conscript young people...imagine the social shake up that'd cause.
 

Baffle

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If they did seriously have to be nice to veterans, and they did get national service to conscript young people...imagine the social shake up that'd cause.
Kicking the can sixty years down the road sounds about right though.
 

Bedinsis

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I saw this video a couple days ago. I am curious what the Brits here think of it (if you have 85 minutes to spare).


The short version is that he urges people to vote for *anyone* other than the Tories and that they are appealing too much to the votes of senior citizens at the expanse of everybody else.
 

Gergar12

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I saw this video a couple days ago. I am curious what the Brits here think of it (if you have 85 minutes to spare).


The short version is that he urges people to vote for *anyone* other than the Tories and that they are appealing too much to the votes of senior citizens at the expanse of everybody else.
Reform UK: But the immigrants!?!?

Conservatives: But my old voters hate young people. Whatever.
 

Agema

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I saw this video a couple days ago. I am curious what the Brits here think of it (if you have 85 minutes to spare).
I don't have 85 minutes to spare.

But ever since the financial crash, the UK has had a f***ing awful time. it feels like a lot of the bad things haven't been fixed and even more has gone wrong. GDP / capita has barely changed: even back in the late 70s when it probably last felt this grim, at least people were getting richer.

The Tories are polling about 20%. I'm amazed they even have that much: I can only put it down to the fact that they've kept pensioners well paid, and there's a significant chunk of the affluent who haven't really felt the pain like so many millions of their fellow citizens and fear Labour raising taxes more than they want their country to be in a fit state.

The rivers being full of sewage is, let's face it, a very, very long way from the most serious issue facing the UK. However, it's how symptomatic it feels of a neglectful and incompetent government letting things slip to wrack and ruin plus the incredibly potent metaphor of our country being choked by literal shit.
 
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Agema

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Something of almost no major interest to the wider country in an election year:

It of high interest to me, because I work in higher education. This is a pretty accurate article: the British higher education system is a "golden goose": not just for the quality of education it provides for the country's own citizens, but for research output, the economics advantages of spin-offs and income raised from international students. And yet it is dying, slowly and surely. Rumours have floated around that about six universties have already teetered on the brink of bankruptcy since covid. Countless others are well on the track to severe financial danger. The government then frequently rhetorically assaults universities - for being "woke" or whatever suits them, except for the times they need to boast about the "world class" education system (that they are killing).

Again, this is neglect and failure. Not that I think universities themselves are entirely without blame, but much of this is the result of governmental, ideological dogma creating half-baked and harmful framework for higher education to operate in, coupled with sheer disinterest in the face of competing pressures such as Brexit, public will, and general economic decay. The election won't change much, because Labour won't have their eye on this ball either due to the range of issues facing the country.
 

Agema

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This is genuinely hilarious and also strangely awful.

Quick summary - PM Sunak skipped out early on the D-Day commemoration events, missing standing alongside other world leaders, to record an interview: for which there was no hurry, because the interview isn't due to air until Wed 12th. Obviously, this has gone down like a lead balloon.

On the one hand, I'd actually quite like the country to stop navel-gazing at military successes of three generations ago. However, I do not really get how the PM and his team can have failed to comphrehend how this would look. Especially with their own party, who are a great deal more bothered about muscular defence policy, conspicuously honouring veterans and trumpetting hoary old narratives about past glories. It's doubly astonishing since Nigel Farage only just crawled out of the woodwork again to start hammering the Tories on their right flank, because this is a gift to the Faragites. Predictably, sources close to the PM attempted to blame the civil service, as if somehow none of the PM, anyone from the PM's team or Conservative Party HQ were capable of noticing this enormous gaffe.

The only question really is whether Sunak already has a job lined up with a Californian tech firm. He's obviously going to resign or be deposed as leader of the Tories immediatly after the election. He said he is committed to parliament and will serve his term if re-elected, but then he would say that going into an election campaign. He'll be an MP only as long as it takes for some large multinational to throw a juicy pile of money at him.
 

Seanchaidh

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given that sparking conservative outrage (real or assumed) over some trifling matter is a distraction from more substantive discussions and also directs public discourse toward dumb flag-shagging, it wouldn't be surprising if Sunak's handling of this was intentional. directly, perhaps he loses some to Farage and gains a few liberals who don't like the media being mean to a politician for no good reason. and indirectly there is the infection of discourse with yet more dumb flag-shagging. sounds like it could be a win, though hard to measure. hard to be a loss when the baseline is low, anyway.