UK Retailers Accused of Blacklisting Steam-Required PC Games

[Teimuraz]

In russia there are still lots of retail versions of games, cuz they cost less(retail copy - 15$, steam copy - 60).

 

[major_chaos]

1) You're not free to run them offline any time. You have to be online for every installation. Not every game supports offline mode, even some single-player games. And, every now and then, Steam simply decides it wants to go online again and gives you no other option. Good luck when you're roaming with your laptop.

2) Maybe downloading 10 GB of data is faster then installing it from the disk where you live - not everywhere. I for one have a 5 GB per hour limit (otherwise my speed drops to 1/20 for the day) and that's still above average. Of course I CAN install a retail Steam game from the disk - only that the Steam installer is so fucked up that some games take 2 hours to install (SiN Episodes, Saints Row 2). No thanks.

3) Passwords and other shit aren't just a problem of Steam - I say we should refuse EVERY shit like that.

4) You can't resale retail Steam games.

5) When Steam (or other services like that) go down one day, you're screwed. And one day, it will.

I could go on.

1) Eh, I'm no expert on offline mode, since I'm pretty much always online, but I've never had any trouble with Steam games not running offline. Unlike Far Cry 2 and a few other SecuROM-infested titles.

2)Too bad. Maybe eventually Slovakia will catch up on the Internet side of things. I'll cross my fingers for you.

3) I say most of them aren't even intrusive enough to be classified as an inconvenience. Except when Dragon Age or Mass Effect 2 keeps logging me out from my EA account, which is really fucking annoying.

4) I see the lack of possible resale as a good thing, personally. I might sell one of my old games maybe once a year, if that, since chances are that I'll want to play the games again in a couple of years of they were good to begin with. As far as principles go, I regard a video game as an experience, and don't think a consumer has any inherent right to sell the disc the experience was delivered on to someone else. (Granted, this means I can't lump off Call of Cthulhu or any of the other less than stellar games I got in my QuakeCon 2010 pack on someone else, but I'm okay with that.)

5) Or you're not. For retail games it's easy enough to release a quick DRM-removing patch, and for Steam digital distribution games they can prepare offline installers for people to download before the servers go down. Valve has made a promise that no-one is going to lose their games if Steam goes down permanently.

I don't post often but I?m so sick of the valve fanboys using the "lol u hav bad internet u r a hick get with teh timez lol" excuse to justify steam's bull. I have what I consider above average (and rather expensive) internet with no download limits but it still only downloads about one gig an hour and with the size of most modern games that means that it can be around seven or eight hours after i buy the game before i can actually play it, and that doesn't even cover the 20 mins of installing direct X 9c and whatnot for the hundredth fucking time whereas if I?d gone to GameStop and bought a new game that doesn?t use steam it would take 30 minutes, tops plus like 10 to install it, and what does steam offer in return? A friends list I?ll never use because none of my friends use steam and one giant piece of DRM. yay steam

 

[DTWolfwood]

Bah. I never buy games from brick-and-mortar games shops any more anyway. The vast majority of my purchases nowadays are through Steam, or if I feel like having a boxed copy, Amazon.

It's no wonder physical games retailers are stooping to tactics like this really. They're becoming increasingly irrelevant.

ditto on the bold part.

Console games still need there brick and mortar stores.

Plus how much money are these retailers raking in on PC games that justify them going so far? seriously who goes into a gamestop and asks for a PC title nowadays? lol As a PC gamer i haven't been to a store since i picked up the collectors edition for starcraft.

 

[Mark Flanagan]

I really sympathise with these guys. The way digital disribution is going, Valve have basically set up a monopoly, and will, in the same way as Microsoft and Apple did, probably be very very hard to dislodge now.

What I see Valve as having done is very sneakily gone behind everyone's backs, and very under the table, and set up Steam before the advent of digital distribution, and I think in the coming years we are going to see their company practices get very ugly as theystruggle to maintain their vice-grip on the industry.

So much this, I'm sick of hard copies of games I buy in stores needing to connect to Steam in order to be played.

Oh well at least theres consumer choice, I can choose to buy games that use Steam or I don't play PC games. Wait a minute.....

P.S Yes I am aware that not all PC games require Steam, Just most

PPS Anyone else think it's weird how EA and its Origin service seems to be the 'good guys' compared to Valves Steam at the moment.

 

[JediMB]

I don't post often but I?m so sick of the valve fanboys using the "lol u hav bad internet u r a hick get with teh timez lol" excuse to justify steam's bull.

It's more than I'm an Internet connection snob.

It also hopes that I love pretty close to a Steam server.

Still, I have no problem admitting that the Steam content servers could be a lot better. EA and GOG, for example, give me 1.5 to 3.5 times the download speed. (3.5 MB/s is usually what I can expect from Steam, although reaching up to 7 MB/s is not unheard of. EA gives me 10.x, and GOG got me up to 12 MB/s.)

I have what I consider above average (and rather expensive) internet with no download limits but it still only downloads about one gig an hour and with the size of most modern games that means that it can be around seven or eight hours after i buy the game before i can actually play it

For the record? I started up the Duke Nukem "grabbag mix" theme (3:32) at the same time as the Duke Nukem Forever demo download, and they finished at the same time. I thought that was funny.

and that doesn't even cover the 20 mins of installing direct X 9c and whatnot for the hundredth fucking time whereas if I?d gone to GameStop and bought a new game that doesn?t use steam it would take 30 minutes, tops plus like 10 to install it

That reminds me... I haven't actually run into the DX9 installer in a while. Wonder if it's related to the games I've installed, or if they've finally fixed that. Regardless, the installation process took 2-3 minutes from what I can recall.

and what does steam offer in return? A friends list I?ll never use because none of my friends use steam and one giant piece of DRM. yay steam

I'm going to have to chalk this up to cultural differences. Personally I have over 30 friends on my list, since pretty much every PC gamer has Steam here, over 100 games on the list (most of which were acquired for cheap during Steam's sales), a convenient hub for installing and running games, an in-game web browser so I don't have to minimize my game to visit GameFAQs or whatever, a robust achievement system, and DRM that is a lot less intrusive than those in most of my modern non-Steam retail games.

 

[major_chaos]

I don't post often but I?m so sick of the valve fanboys using the "lol u hav bad internet u r a hick get with teh timez lol" excuse to justify steam's bull.

It's more than I'm an Internet connection snob.

It also hopes that I love pretty close to a Steam server.

Still, I have no problem admitting that the Steam content servers could be a lot better. EA and GOG, for example, give me 1.5 to 3.5 times the download speed. (3.5 MB/s is usually what I can expect from Steam, although reaching up to 7 MB/s is not unheard of. EA gives me 10.x, and GOG got me up to 12 MB/s.)

I have what I consider above average (and rather expensive) internet with no download limits but it still only downloads about one gig an hour and with the size of most modern games that means that it can be around seven or eight hours after i buy the game before i can actually play it

For the record? I started up the Duke Nukem "grabbag mix" theme (3:32) at the same time as the Duke Nukem Forever demo download, and they finished at the same time. I thought that was funny.

and that doesn't even cover the 20 mins of installing direct X 9c and whatnot for the hundredth fucking time whereas if I?d gone to GameStop and bought a new game that doesn?t use steam it would take 30 minutes, tops plus like 10 to install it

That reminds me... I haven't actually run into the DX9 installer in a while. Wonder if it's related to the games I've installed, or if they've finally fixed that. Regardless, the installation process took 2-3 minutes from what I can recall.

and what does steam offer in return? A friends list I?ll never use because none of my friends use steam and one giant piece of DRM. yay steam

I'm going to have to chalk this up to cultural differences. Personally I have over 30 friends on my list, since pretty much every PC gamer has Steam here, over 100 games on the list (most of which were acquired for cheap during Steam's sales), a convenient hub for installing and running games, an in-game web browser so I don't have to minimize my game to visit GameFAQs or whatever, a robust achievement system, and DRM that is a lot less intrusive than those in most of my modern non-Steam retail games.

that was actually a well worded reasonable response (which is rare on the internet) and I think you are right about it largely being a personal preference if the social feature of steam are worthwhile(and i envy your internet connection mine tops out at 350KB/s and that's on a good day). Also i apologize if my post came off as aggressive, I had to go in like 5 minutes and was in a hurry and my post didn't come out quite like I wanted it to
EDIT: to clarify it wasn't meant to be aggressive towards you it was intentionally hostile to steam, and i totally agree that steam has excellent sales and i also think it is the best platform for smaller games like terraria and xenoclash i'm just not sold on it for full retail games. It also bugs me that i cant chose where to install my games they just go where steam is installed and now that hard drive is running out of space,but i don't want to deal with uninstalling Steam and re-downloading all my games on my other HDD

 

[Nikolaz72]

It's interesting distinction to note that these stores are apparently not refusing to stock games available on steam, they're refusing to stock games that REQUIRE steam to play. Maybe they're one and the same. But it's great how people have been some brainwashed into buying incomplete products off the shelf from either B&M stores or even online stores like amazon.

There was a time where I could buy a game, and it would be MY GAME, and I could play it without internet watch dog holding my hand. And the game I bought was 100% complete, not 96% complete or whatever bullshit Steam pulls out.


What value does buying a game off Steam give you?
You can't resell it to a 2nd hand shop.
You don't actually own the game, because if Steam ever goes tits up guess what you can't play it.

It's basically a full priced rental.

Nope. If steam ever goes down the program will release a patch that makes it go into some kind of Permanent Offline mode. Disabling Multiplayer games but still allowing everything else to run just fine. (Source: Valve)

I guess the Download Servers will be down for good though. But I used a Steamkey to register Dragonage on EA's Website and can get a new download copy from them if I ever loose this one. So yea, those games? Just as much mine as a CD copy. And will probably last just as long (If not longer)

What kind of logic is that?
If Steam ever goes down it won't be around to patch your game!

Plenty of Logic. They probably have a patch for said occasion ready should it happend. A button with big "DO NOT PRESS THIS" letters on it.

 

[JediMB]

that was actually a well worded reasonable response (which is rare on the internet)

Well-worded... except for all the freaking typos. x_x

I especially can't believe I missed "hopes that I love", which was supposed to be "helps that I live". Today has been a spellfail day.

 

[Stavros Dimou]

It's a shame because steamworks is some of the nicest DRM one comes across on the PC platform. Anyhow, the brick-and-mortar stores aren't realizing the problem they are facing. If it's not going to be steam, it will be someone else. The stores aren't providing any added value. If I can download a game directly to my computer, I don't have to go to a store and deal with some annoying sales rep who is going to do their damnedest to sell me the latest Call of Duty game which I have absolutely no interest in. Now, if these stores found a way to add value to the transaction rather than make me feel like I have to slay some floor salesman to get at what I want...

The problem is that after a game that uses Steam as its DRM is registered in Steam,it becomes forever attached in somebody's Steam's account.
There are lots of people who return opened games to stores either because they never heard of Steam and now that they learned how it works they don't want the game anymore,or because they bought a game that was broken and want to take it back to the shop and get a refund.

Retailer's can't say no to these people,because it's in legal consumer's rights to return a product that is broken or doesn't work as advertised.

The problem is that Publishers won't take back registered games either,and retailers end up having hundreds of games that are already registered to some Steam account,and they can't sell to anybody.
The games are charged,and retailers have to pay from their own wallet for all these hundreds of games,and I think it should be reasonable that they can't afford it.

Steam forces retailers to loose large amounts of money,without a fault from the retailer's side.

You know, I work in a field where 250 people will apply for the same job. One can argue to the end of the world that life is unfair but it doesn't pay the bills. Pointing out that the system is unfair doesn't change the fact that I can get much better service from Steam, without leaving my house and without having to deal with a sales clerk who is trying to shove unwanted products down my throat. It also doesn't change the fact that I look for games to be steamworks compatible because other forms of DRM are absolutely terrible to me, the consumer.

Look, if your point is that it's hard on store owners, I'm a little sympathetic. Other than that, though, I'm always going to act in my own interests as are most other consumers. You have any idea what it's like trying to play a game with secuROM? Effectively, if you say to me that you will only sell PC games without steamworks, you've said to me that you don't sell PC games, and thus you've lost my business.

Of course and I played games with securom,and Oblivion is one of them.
All I had to do with Securom was to have internet connection the time I installed the game.
Only that.

I didn't had to create an account on some site.
I didn't had to download 3rd party software to sit on my hard drive.
I didn't had to have this software to always run on my computer whenever I want to run a game.
I didn't had the third party program to MALFUNCTION and not let me play my game,like Steam did.
And in case I wouldn't like it,I could sell it to somebody and get another game in its place.

Please note that I don't judge Steam as a sell service,but only as DRM.
I don't say that Steam shouldn't sell games,but that games that are sold retail shouldn't need to use Steam.
Steam is not worth it for me.
Ok,so it can let me see what my friends play.. Big deal!
If that's the only thing that it offers me,and it asks from me all the things I said above,it just not worth it.
If I wanted to know what my friends are playing,I could call them on their cellphones.

 

[Zefar]

People bringing up the the "Not being able to re sell your PC game". Well here's a newsflash for you. You wasn't really able to do that ever since CD keys where invented for the games. It worked a while but once most people with common sense figured out people would generally scam the hell out you they would stop buying it. Then to laugh at people who did buy it and ended up with a bad copy.

So I'm wondering if these people live in some sort of cave that they recently got out from. As this has been a practice for over 10 years. Maybe 12 years in fact. Half-Life was released on 1998 if I'm not wrong. I remember it having a Cd key.

PC reselling isn't happening anymore and very few even bother to buy them. So complaining on that is just not gonna work. Want to resell games? Stick to console games.

But if you just got out from that cave, I'll say this. Welcome to the world of tomorrow!

As for the topic. Russia sells their game really cheap what I've heard and it's probably good reason why most PB bans come from Russian copies.

So them not stocking Steam titles might help a bit. All though BC2 isn't Steam Exclusive.


Oh and for for having to download the game. If you bought a retail game that uses Steam you can use that Cd to install the game with. There is a guide on how to make Steam look for the CD first before downloading it. It's in the Support section.

 

[thepyrethatburns]

It's interesting distinction to note that these stores are apparently not refusing to stock games available on steam, they're refusing to stock games that REQUIRE steam to play. Maybe they're one and the same. But it's great how people have been some brainwashed into buying incomplete products off the shelf from either B&M stores or even online stores like amazon.

There was a time where I could buy a game, and it would be MY GAME, and I could play it without internet watch dog holding my hand. And the game I bought was 100% complete, not 96% complete or whatever bullshit Steam pulls out.


What value does buying a game off Steam give you?
You can't resell it to a 2nd hand shop.
You don't actually own the game, because if Steam ever goes tits up guess what you can't play it.

It's basically a full priced rental.

Nope. If steam ever goes down the program will release a patch that makes it go into some kind of Permanent Offline mode. Disabling Multiplayer games but still allowing everything else to run just fine. (Source: Valve)

I guess the Download Servers will be down for good though. But I used a Steamkey to register Dragonage on EA's Website and can get a new download copy from them if I ever loose this one. So yea, those games? Just as much mine as a CD copy. And will probably last just as long (If not longer)

What kind of logic is that?
If Steam ever goes down it won't be around to patch your game!

Plenty of Logic. They probably have a patch for said occasion ready should it happend. A button with big "DO NOT PRESS THIS" letters on it.

Not to repeat an argument but they have NEVER proven this. All we have is Valve's word for it and Valve said it as a way of easing people's fears about buying Steam games at the time. Having been on the IT side of the fence for eight years, when the business was getting shipped away, everyone's attention was on getting a new job. As soon as someone got one, they were gone and the people who were left would reshuffle their work with lowest priority getting the shaft.

I would bet the Steam games that I already own that when (because nothing last forever) Steam goes the way of the dodo, it will have the same effect on Steam's games as XBL will on any XBLIG that people have bought.

Whether that's a sticking point for you or not is up to you to decide. For me, it is a sticking point but it isn't the final word. If I can't get it off Direct 2 Drive but I really want it, then I'll still get it off Steam. Thus far, that's been three games. I accept that, when Steam dies, so will my games.

But it's something that I think people (on Steam, Xbox Live, and PSN) need to go into with eyes open. When those services go down, there will not be a patch no matter what is claimed when those services go down. For the last two, your games will last as long as your HDD. For Steam and XBLIG, you won't even get that.

 

[Zefar]

Not to repeat an argument but they have NEVER proven this. All we have is Valve's word for it and Valve said it as a way of easing people's fears about buying Steam games at the time. Having been on the IT side of the fence for eight years, when the business was getting shipped away, everyone's attention was on getting a new job. As soon as someone got one, they were gone and the people who were left would reshuffle their work with lowest priority getting the shaft.

Valve actually likes to please their fans. So thinking that the company that supports their game the most is not going to release a No Steam patch for all the users is kinda absurd.
There is also this where they might do it some months earlier if they notice that the sales and such are going down way to fast.

But it's something that I think people (on Steam, Xbox Live, and PSN) need to go into with eyes open. When those services go down, there will not be a patch no matter what is claimed when those services go down. For the last two, your games will last as long as your HDD. For Steam and XBLIG, you won't even get that.

Odds of the 3 giants like Valve, Microsoft and Sony will ever go down is next to 0%. Specially Microsoft. That company will be alive for as long as you live as will all the service with it as well.

There is also this where you can burn out all of your Steam games on DVDs and such or store them on a separate harddrive. Because as long as you have that no Steam patch you'll most likely be fine to play them.

 

[thepyrethatburns]

Odds of the 3 giants like Valve, Microsoft and Sony will ever go down is next to 0%. Specially Microsoft. That company will be alive for as long as you live as will all the service with it as well.

Oh, really now? Well, I'd like to redownload the Hellhound for Crimson Skies: High Road to Revenge for the Xbox. How can I get this? What about the downloadable Mechassault maps?

We already have the example with the original Live on what happens when a service gets discontinued. With XBLIG, Microsoft has made no bones about what will happen when 360 Live goes down. Hell, Microsoft has already floated a trial balloon of delisting unpopular XBLA games.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_Live_Arcade#Removal_of_games_from_the_service

Yeah, they backed off because people freaked out but Microsoft is not going to run legacy servers forever just so someone can download Wing Commander Arena.

As for the odds, people would have said the same thing about Sega getting out of the hardware business in 1999. Having done the gaming thing since the days of the Intellivision/Atari wars, I have seen many companies and services that people also claimed a 0% chance of them ever collapsing go under. With the possible exception of Microsoft, I have grown used to supposedly invincible companies crumbling. Perhaps I am cynical but I still say " WHEN Steam eventually goes down" because nothing lasts forever.

There is also this where you can burn out all of your Steam games on DVDs and such or store them on a separate harddrive. Because as long as you have that no Steam patch you'll most likely be fine to play them.

Which is a claim that is still dependent on an unproven statement. Even the Steam subscriber agreement states that Valve is under no obligation to release an update in the event Steam goes under.

http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

Valve's desire to please their fans won't really be a driving force if the company is going under.

Look, I'm not saying "don't get XBLA/PSN/Steam games" (if only because that would make me a hypocrite). I'm just saying that people should go into those purchases with their eyes open on the impermanence of their transactions.

 

[Katana314]

It's interesting distinction to note that these stores are apparently not refusing to stock games available on steam, they're refusing to stock games that REQUIRE steam to play. Maybe they're one and the same. But it's great how people have been some brainwashed into buying incomplete products off the shelf from either B&M stores or even online stores like amazon.

There was a time where I could buy a game, and it would be MY GAME, and I could play it without internet watch dog holding my hand. And the game I bought was 100% complete, not 96% complete or whatever bullshit Steam pulls out.


What value does buying a game off Steam give you?
You can't resell it to a 2nd hand shop.
You don't actually own the game, because if Steam ever goes tits up guess what you can't play it.

It's basically a full priced rental.

Nope. If steam ever goes down the program will release a patch that makes it go into some kind of Permanent Offline mode. Disabling Multiplayer games but still allowing everything else to run just fine. (Source: Valve)

I guess the Download Servers will be down for good though. But I used a Steamkey to register Dragonage on EA's Website and can get a new download copy from them if I ever loose this one. So yea, those games? Just as much mine as a CD copy. And will probably last just as long (If not longer)

See, here's the problem I have with that statement: It was said a LONG, LONG time ago: Back when Half-Life 2 had just been released, and they were dealing with questions about Steam. Steam has grown into many, many services now, and I highly doubt that in their ridiculously enormous library now, they've tested each and every game to be fully patch-and-playable without the Steam application. Some of them tie in pretty closely now, what with TF2, Modern Warfare 2, and others, and I certainly don't see the trend going backwards.

Then there's other complications when the "zero-day" comes. For instance, many people here have a Steam account big enough that they don't often keep all their games installed. If Steam shut down, there would be no way to download your games again; just the patches that would make them run (unless, in its bankruptcy, Valve finds the funds to allow millions of gamers worldwide the ability to simultaneously download terrabytes of games to their hard drives)

A lot has happened on Steam since they made that initial statement. If I asked them the same question now, I'm not entirely sure their response would be as confident.