UK Schools to report parents to the police if they allow their children to play 18 rated games.

[GonvilleBromhead]

It seems that a lot of people seem to ignore the context of this: teachers (and others) now face criminal action if they fail to report suspected abuse of neglect; age inappropriate materials have been considered an indicator of neglect ever since I have worked in education, and certainly IS NOT some Tory "think of the children" Mary Whitehouse style panic - it predates both the current government and indeed the Rotherham abuse scandal (I believe Soham triggered it, but may be wrong)

Seriously, if an 8 year old comes into school and starts waffling about how cool the film "Lesbian Spank Inferno" was, that brings up a lot of questions. Are children using the internet unsupervised? Does the parent leave the child at home for a long time with no-one watching over them? What are the children doing at home if they end up watching "Lesbian Spank Inferno"? Is the child hanging around with someone far older, outside of his parents knowledge who is showing them hardcore pornography? I know everyone here is reading it and thinking "OMG, Gay! Arresting 17 years for playing GTAV? That's Dumb!", but an 10 year playing something infamous like "Rape Play" is a genuine reason for concern. Neglect, grooming, etc. can all be indicated by such a thing. Bear in mind the vast majority of the schools in the NEP in question are primary (up to 11) schools

 

[CymbaIine]

It seems that a lot of people seem to ignore the context of this: teachers (and others) now face criminal action if they fail to report suspected abuse of neglect;

No they don't, nor has anybody said they should.

age inappropriate materials have been considered an indicator of neglect ever since I have worked in education,

Age inappropriate video games have never been listed in any of the (extensive) child protection training I have had, certainly not as an indicator of neglect. Even if they were indicators are just that, indicators. They aren't meant to trigger a safeguarding individually (let alone a police report for fucks sake). Repeatedly not having school equipment (like a PE kit) is an indicator of neglect however I doubt schools will be sending out letters threatening police/social service intervention regarding this any time soon.

and certainly IS NOT some Tory "think of the children" Mary Whitehouse style panic - it predates both the current government and indeed the Rotherham abuse scandal (I believe Soham triggered it, but may be wrong)

What are you talking about here? This letter doesn't predate those things nor does the proposed law (which, so far, is specific to sexual exploitation) so what does?

Seriously, if an 8 year old comes into school and starts waffling about how cool the film "Lesbian Spank Inferno" was, that brings up a lot of questions. Are children using the internet unsupervised? Does the parent leave the child at home for a long time with no-one watching over them? What are the children doing at home if they end up watching "Lesbian Spank Inferno"? Is the child hanging around with someone far older, outside of his parents knowledge who is showing them hardcore pornography?

Straw man. The letter doesn't mention pornography, it talks about video games (and social media) nobody here has said we should give 8 years access to lesbian spank inferno.

I know everyone here is reading it and thinking "OMG, Gay! Arresting 17 years for playing GTAV? That's Dumb!",

Really? What about other posters (like me and the majority of those who have responded) who have put forward more articulate and reasonable objections?

but an 10 year playing something infamous like "Rape Play" is a genuine reason for concern. Neglect, grooming, etc. can all be indicated by such a thing. Bear in mind the vast majority of the schools in the NEP in question are primary (up to 11) schools

So all video games rated 15+ are basically RapeLay?

 

[Bad Jim]

Where is the evidence that these activities are more harmful to a child than say.. sports? or just playing out? Cycling? We have established that this is not illegal so now to make this a safeguarding issue (which is ultimately what the school is saying it is) we have to demonstrate that it is harmful. I haven't kept up with the studies so maybe there is proof but I doubt it is more potentially harmful than many other activities that a school would never report.

Actually I believe you are quite right. I haven't heard of any real scientific study of this either. I suspect it is actually just something conservative types have assumed that has gone unquestioned for hundreds, maybe thousands of years.

Actually there have been studies showing a correlation between porn and rape. A negative correlation.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/30/smut_freakonomics/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-sunny-side-of-smut/

Also, violent crime has dropped quite dramatically since the 90s, as our own Shamus Young pointed out here:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/experienced-points/10327-Violent-Videogames-are-Awesome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

and it started dropping at about the point where Doom, Duke Nukem 3D and other games started to show up that were popular and not designed for children.

As Shamus said, we shouldn't be lazy and pronounce the idea busted just like that. But the moral guardians have even less evidence supporting their position AFAIK.

 

[Jezzy54]

I find it hard to believe that letting a kid play GTA is something the police or social services care about. Unless the kid is being left home alone for days while playing, it sounds like a pretty impotent threat.

 

[CymbaIine]

Actually I believe you are quite right. I haven't heard of any real scientific study of this either. I suspect it is actually just something conservative types have assumed that has gone unquestioned for hundreds, maybe thousands of years.

Actually there have been studies showing a correlation between porn and rape. A negative correlation.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/30/smut_freakonomics/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-sunny-side-of-smut/

Also, violent crime has dropped quite dramatically since the 90s, as our own Shamus Young pointed out here:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/experienced-points/10327-Violent-Videogames-are-Awesome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

and it started dropping at about the point where Doom, Duke Nukem 3D and other games started to show up that were popular and not designed for children.

As Shamus said, we shouldn't be lazy and pronounce the idea busted just like that. But the moral guardians have even less evidence supporting their position AFAIK.

Thanks for that. I am sure I have read that video games are good for fine motor skills and problem solving but I cannot find any links.

 

[mad825]

Ahah

AHAHAHA

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH
....
And bravo UK education: this is the kind of shit we berate the Aussies and the Americans for. I halfway expected to see David Cameron spearheading this nonsense in the wake of his recent porn regulation bullshit.

But yes, take away the vidya garms from the kiddies. Fuck movies, violent TV shows or even more insidiously damaging shit that enforces ironclad gender roles, outdated social attitudes and consumerism or a school system that works through a fear of failure. Nah, those things certainly aren't damaging at all. "******"? Why, that's a curseword that has never graced British playgrounds at all(!)

Oh you, international escapists, only knowing one side of the story.

This is a a knock-on effect as a result of a case known as "Baby P". A child was beaten to death by his parents but had visible signs of physical abuse throughout the time he was alive. The doctors, teachers and social services failed to protect the child as a result there has been situations where the local authorities (as in not national) have been over zealous. There are still a large number of situations where children have been taken into care without question because of a fairly mild injury (fractures, noticeable bruising ect ect).

The laws on neglect are very subjective as one poster mentioned such as so, it's illegal for a minor to buy alcohol but the law states it's legal to consume at the age of 5 with the parent/guardian consent in private however this law does not reflect reality but are in fact good grounds for social care intervention.

 

[jklinders]

Sounds like these school officials wnat the job of raising these kids 24/7.

Frankly if they started pulling that shit I would log together an invoice of the cost raising my kids and ask them if they want the full responsibility. When the answer come up no, I'll tell them to fuck the hell off. This kind of busy body shit is precisely the kind of crap teachers are constantly crying that they have no time for. Just to be fucking clear, teachers and other school officials say they cannot properly police bullying. But they have time for this?

Fuck these hippocritical bullshitting idiots. Makes me wish a single income parent model was more possible in this day and age. Home schooling is looking better and better all the time.

capcha: fire and brim stone

I wasn't going quite that much there capcha.

 

[Bad Jim]

Sounds like these school officials want the job of raising these kids 24/7.

Frankly if they started pulling that shit I would log together an invoice of the cost raising my kids and ask them if they want the full responsibility. When the answer come up no, I'll tell them to fuck the hell off.

Sadly, they would be paying for it from your taxes, so they might well answer yes.

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

Ahah

AHAHAHA

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH
....
And bravo UK education: this is the kind of shit we berate the Aussies and the Americans for. I halfway expected to see David Cameron spearheading this nonsense in the wake of his recent porn regulation bullshit.

But yes, take away the vidya garms from the kiddies. Fuck movies, violent TV shows or even more insidiously damaging shit that enforces ironclad gender roles, outdated social attitudes and consumerism or a school system that works through a fear of failure. Nah, those things certainly aren't damaging at all. "******"? Why, that's a curseword that has never graced British playgrounds at all(!)

Oh you, international escapists, only knowing one side of the story.

This is a a knock-on effect as a result of a case known as "Baby P". A child was beaten to death by his parents but had visible signs of physical abuse throughout the time he was alive. The doctors, teachers and social services failed to protect the child as a result there has been situations where the local authorities (as in not national) have been over zealous. There are still a large number of situations where children have been taken into care without question because of a fairly mild injury (fractures, noticeable bruising ect ect).

The laws on neglect are very subjective as one poster mentioned such as so, it's illegal for a minor to buy alcohol but the law states it's legal to consume at the age of 5 with the parent/guardian consent in private however this law does not reflect reality but are in fact good grounds for social care intervention.

Dude, I live in London, in fact, not too far from where "Baby P" happened >_>

Though yes, I do see the UK laws overcompensating and getting way too close to 'nanny state' territory sometimes, though if it's regional then I guess it's somewhat less problematic.

Nonetheless, seeing a public institution of any size taking this sort of responsibility into it's own hand reflects badly on such public institutions in general. De-centralised, yes, but not mutually exclusive.

 

[Quellist]

Just why? Isn't it a parent's job to decide if something is appropriate for their child? It just seems like a odd and dumb move to me.

Unless of course the parents don't give a shit and believe bringing up the children begins and ends with sitting them in front of the telly and letting them learn everything that way.

Seriously what some people call 'parenting' these days makes me cry

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

I'm all for it, I can't get my son's mum to see video games as anything but kids toys.
GTA at 6. Saints Row at 8. GTAV at 10, all totally unsupervised when he's at her home. he has all sorts of behavioural problem n the chavy ***** dont give a shit because the 360 is the cheapest baby sitter.

 

[jklinders]

Sounds like these school officials want the job of raising these kids 24/7.

Frankly if they started pulling that shit I would log together an invoice of the cost raising my kids and ask them if they want the full responsibility. When the answer come up no, I'll tell them to fuck the hell off.

Sadly, they would be paying for it from your taxes, so they might well answer yes.

Nope, the contract would be specifically between the busybody and me. If they refused to pony up their own money (no busybody EVER puts their own money where their big loud mouths are) my answer would be to tell them to shove their nose up their own ass until they can smell their food coming the other way. It was established well earlier in topic that they are out of legal line here so there would be no consequences on the investigation of "neglect."

 

[Silverbeard]

I was all ready to scoff at this law for most of the reasons previously detailed by my fellow posters but then something occurred to me: in most countries it is explicitly illegal for an adult to purchase tobacco or alcohol for a minor. The adult can face criminal action for doing this regardless of what the adult's relationship to the minor is. Parent? Stranger? All can face charges.
Is this so much of a leap from that? Does an adult purchasing age gated content for a minor not face as much responsibility as one purchasing a pack of smokes for that same minor? Are we making an exception in the case of video games because of who we are and our own backgrounds with the media?

 

[mad825]

Dude, I live in London, in fact, not too far from where "Baby P" happened >_>

Though yes, I do see the UK laws overcompensating and getting way too close to 'nanny state' territory sometimes, though if it's regional then I guess it's somewhat less problematic.

Nonetheless, seeing a public institution of any size taking this sort of responsibility into it's own hand reflects badly on such public institutions in general. De-centralised, yes, but not mutually exclusive.

Then for a londoner, you have a very poor understanding of this country's democracy.

Quite frankly, a lot of parents do not understand what are content within computer games...And the government made the system more complicated by removing the familiarity of the BBFC. This is not overcompensating for something that need compensating. Besides, The social services neither have the time or money to exert legal action however most parents may just simply need advice.

 

[CymbaIine]

Is this so much of a leap from that? Does an adult purchasing age gated content for a minor not face as much responsibility as one purchasing a pack of smokes for that same minor? Are we making an exception in the case of video games because of who we are and our own backgrounds with the media?

Actually it's totes legal in the UK for me to give my 6 year old alcohol (as long as I am in a private home). Obviously I would still get into trouble for it but if I gave my 14 year old a couple of cans of lager at my New Years party it's highly unlikely anybody (in authority) would bat an eyelid. Cigarettes are a rarer thing for parents to give kids but even in this case I doubt social services would care very much if a parent of a 16 year old smoker gave their child the odd cig.

Also it's not just video games, there are also movies and TV shows which again as a parent I am allowed to let my kids view at my own discretion.

The UK shies away from hard and fast laws regarding childrens ages. They expect parents to use their expert knowledge of their own kids to exercise discretion and when they are judged to fail in that regard they intervene.

Let me use an example that isn't video games - 11 year olds were I live mostly look after themselves for a couple of hours a day as there is no after school provision for 11+ and most people I know work till 5ish. It's legal to leave your 11 year old home alone, schools are completely aware of this, after all we have to leave contact details with them. Now if I went away for the week and left my 11 year old and the school found out I am pretty sure they would call social services (and rightly so).

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

The whole problem with this is that it cries busy bodies in the PTA bitching about something that isn't actually much of a problem by it self. I just hate this sort of stupidity I really do. This is further proof that the UK has sunk to nanny state, at least in popular opinion. Seriously Teachers have better things to do, police have better things to do, and child protective services have better things to do.

This is why I thank what ever powers exist in the universe that granted us life for the first amendment of the US constitution. The government literally cannot censor, so it's up to the industry to set guidelines. Guidelines might I add that the retailers and cinemas and etc generally follow. Let the parents decide what's appropriate for their children and stop using the police as a threat tool... Seriously this is the reason that the west is breeding a generation that will be literally unable to deal with anything at all.

 

[Maze1125]

I am not surprised, schools in the UK are Socialist wet dreams, unionised, inefficient, unaccountable sinecures populated by people who get 13 weeks a year off, extra days off for "training", a gold plated pension, effective tenure and guaranteed payrises and yet always moan they aren't getting enough and threatening another strike.

The average teacher works more hours over the year than almost any other profession. The existence of the holidays is not enough to offset the 11-12 hour days during term-time especially as many teachers are forced to use the breaks to catch up on paperwork.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I am not surprised, schools in the UK are Socialist wet dreams, unionised, inefficient, unaccountable sinecures populated by people who get 13 weeks a year off, extra days off for "training", a gold plated pension, effective tenure and guaranteed payrises and yet always moan they aren't getting enough and threatening another strike.

The average teacher works more hours over the year than almost any other profession. The existence of the holidays is not enough to offset the 11-12 hour days during term-time especially as many teachers are forced to use the breaks to catch up on paperwork.

Yes, I've heard this excuse, I do know quite a few teachers; I have no doubt there are some very hard working teachers but as a general rule, in my experience, this simply isn't true. It is however an idea very enthusiastically peddled by the Unions and their supporting left wing media for obvious reasons.

Still you have got to admit free time, or no. Teachers have better things to do than watch their students full time looking for someone who's playing 18+ rated games and report it.

 

[FoxKitsune]

I think it's a little too far, BUT as a man working in the early years sector, I'm telling you: There's nothing so chilling as hearing a 3 year old casually make references to things they've seen in Grand Theft Auto, and no I'm not kidding. This is going too far- lord knows I was playing Vice City in school, so I'll be a hypocrite when I wind up keeping it from my children- but seriously. Hearing three year olds making those comments, using those words and saying things that even older teenagers might find to be overstepping the line makes you look at this in a totally different light.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I think it's a little too far, BUT as a man working in the early years sector, I'm telling you: There's nothing so chilling as hearing a 3 year old casually make references to things they've seen in Grand Theft Auto, and no I'm not kidding. This is going too far- lord knows I was playing Vice City in school, so I'll be a hypocrite when I wind up keeping it from my children- but seriously. Hearing three year olds making those comments, using those words and saying things that even older teenagers might find to be overstepping the line makes you look at this in a totally different light.

Yeah three is a bit young to be exposed to that sort of thing in some respects. But if you think about it the violence level is a bit cartoonish in most video games. I mean I was playing Doom and other violent video games when I was 7.