Ukraine

[Silvanus]

Ok, I'm not even going to read the rest of your post right now, this is just too shockingly stupid and unnecessary.

The United States is very obviously a plutocracy. And yet

In 2016

By your standards

THE "BIG MONEY CANDIDATE" (by about 2:1)

LOST.

If you're wondering why the above is formatted that way, it's because you didn't notice this very clear counterexample to your reasoning when it appeared in regularly formatted text (numerous times? I don't remember) before.

As if it is impossible for multiple candidates to be plutocratic. As if it is impossible for multiple candidates to have the same policies approved by plutocrats. As if it is impossible for a system to be plutocratic in more ways than just candidate selection. As if it is impossible for the effect of money on politics to be expressed in more ways than a tally of official campaign expenditures. Like, oh, I don't know, being the star of a popular television show on a plutocrat's TV channel. Like both Trump and Zelensky were!

But no, celebrity is obviously not tied to money. It's just an organic expression of personal merit- or whatever other contortion you wish to make to preserve this asinine dodge.

There are so many ways in which your line of argument falls apart that it is amazing that you keep repeating it.

Ihor Kolomoisky is a Ukrainian oligarch and plutocrat- excuse me, I mean billionaire, he's not Russian after all- who funds various Nazi militia groups and every winner of the Ukrainian presidency since (and including) Poroshenko. He was also a governor for whatever that's worth.

Will you now deny that the United States is a plutocracy so I can laugh even harder? And with such reasoning! The election of Trump obviously means that the United States cannot be a plutocracy lmao

This is how a Washington D.C.-based think tank speaks of the democratic Ukraine that blossomed in the aftermath of Euromaidan (and the selection of Arseniy Yatsenyuk as Prime Minister by US officials):






Glorious.

The fact you'd even try to make this hilarious, specious comparison.

In case it's escaped your notice somehow: the US political scene is dominated by two gigantic parties with so much financial connection, they essentially operate as lobbying platforms. Any candidate elevated by the primary process is unavoidably funded by those existing connections, primarily through their congressmen.

So let's see how much context is shared! Dynastic political party with existing financial connections? Uhrm, nope, neither he nor the party existed in the political sphere before 2018.

Well, maybe he's spending a lot anyway... oh, nope; he was outspent by 5 other candidates, and at a rate of 5:1 by Poroshenko. He ran a campaign primarily through... social media. Barely appeared on established political shows.

Being outspent 2:1 in the US still means Clinton had billions to spend, and saturated the airwaves. Zelensky spent... the equivalent of a couple of million euros, and produced hardly any political TV advertising. Oh yeah, big money establishment candidate right there. -_-

Jesus, just face it: they elected someone you don't like. They overwhelmingly reject reintegration with Russia. So instead of conceding to the popular will, you'd rather see your favoured policy implemented at gunpoint.

---

A little bit miffed you chose to solely focus on the least important part of the reply, and Snip out all the rest, btw. Nothing to say about Yanukovych's adviser stating Ukraine cannot be allowed to be sovereign? Or the fact that you did actually call for Ukraine to be demilitarised, and then forgot and acted as if we were making it up?

 

[Kwak]

Fucking nazi pianists.

Siberian Pianist Jailed for ‘Nazi Propaganda’ After Playing Ukrainian Anthem - The Moscow Times

A Siberian entrepreneur who played the Ukrainian national anthem in public has been found guilty of “Nazi propaganda,” a local court said Thursday in the latest example of Russia's ongoing crackdown on wartime dissent.

www.themoscowtimes.com

 

[Hawki]

Why is the Brazilian left supporting Putin’s Russia?

In the eyes of many Brazilian leftists, the only real imperialism is US imperialism.

www.aljazeera.com

When Al Jazeera of all places is pointing out the complexities of imperialism, tankies might want to take a moment.

Fucking nazi pianists.

Siberian Pianist Jailed for ‘Nazi Propaganda’ After Playing Ukrainian Anthem - The Moscow Times

A Siberian entrepreneur who played the Ukrainian national anthem in public has been found guilty of “Nazi propaganda,” a local court said Thursday in the latest example of Russia's ongoing crackdown on wartime dissent.

www.themoscowtimes.com

Damn dirty Nazis and their...piano...playing...skills...

Fuck, I can't even joke about it. There's no punchline more absurd then the events themselves.

 

[Agema]

This is how a Washington D.C.-based think tank speaks of the democratic Ukraine that blossomed in the aftermath of Euromaidan (and the selection of Arseniy Yatsenyuk as Prime Minister by US officials):

Sure.

But the tragedy is that your primary concern with corruption in Ukraine is not that it should be stamped out, but to condemn Ukraine and justify Russia's aggression against it.

 

[Silvanus]

Sure.

But the tragedy is that your primary concern with corruption in Ukraine is not that it should be stamped out, but to condemn Ukraine and justify Russia's aggression against it.

Much less corrupt to.... uhrm, depose the government and install whoever the Russians want without a vote.

(Putting aside the fact that the government on the receiving end of that article isn't even the same government as Russia aims to depose. But that inconvenient fact has already been handwaved away with the usual 'they're all the same' reductionism).

 

[Agema]

Much less corrupt to.... uhrm, depose the government and install whoever the Russians want without a vote.

(Putting aside the fact that the government on the receiving end of that article isn't even the same government as Russia aims to depose. But that inconvenient fact has already been handwaved away with the usual 'they're all the same' reductionism).

No-one is unaware that Ukraine has substantial corruption, overpowerful rich individuals, and a nationalist minority. But I fail to quite comprehend why a country whose people evidently want corruption stamped out merits being subordinated to and controlled by a deeply authoritarian, and even more nationalist, corrupt and plutocratic neighbouring regime that abuses human rights along with breakfast, elevenses, lunch, afternoon tea, dinner and a nightcap.

Ukraine's issues are being systematically weaponised by the Kremlin and their useful idiots to justify gross Russian imperialism: "Mumble mumble Nazis plutocrats mumble."

 

[Terminal Blue]

The United States is very obviously a plutocracy.

List some countries which are not plutocracies.

 

[Silvanus]

No-one is unaware that Ukraine has substantial corruption, overpowerful rich individuals, and a nationalist minority. But I fail to quite comprehend why a country whose people evidently want corruption stamped out merits being subordinated to and controlled by a deeply authoritarian, and even more nationalist, corrupt and plutocratic neighbouring regime that abuses human rights along with breakfast, elevenses, lunch, afternoon tea, dinner and a nightcap.

Ukraine's issues are being systematically weaponised by the Kremlin and their useful idiots to justify gross Russian imperialism: "Mumble mumble Nazis plutocrats mumble."

Exactly-- and since we can be certain that the Russian government has no problem whatsoever with corruption and ultra-nationalism, we can also be sure that cleaning up those issues was not a motivating factor in their invasion.

Which renders the constant banging-on about them in this thread irrelevant. Except in terms of signal-boosting the Kremlin's transparent sales pitch.

 

[Eacaraxe]

But I fail to quite comprehend why a country whose people evidently want corruption stamped out merits being subordinated to and controlled by a deeply authoritarian, and even more nationalist, corrupt and plutocratic neighbouring regime that abuses human rights along with breakfast, elevenses, lunch, afternoon tea, dinner and a nightcap.

The alternative is being subordinated to and controlled by a deeply authoritarian and even more nationalist, corrupt and plutocratic regime that abuses human rights along with breakfast, elevenses, lunch, afternoon tea, dinner and a nightcap...on the other side of the planet, which just happens to have better PR.

But really, the bottom line is this. If Russia didn't want proxy war with the US, it wouldn't have put its country or its proxies right smack dab in the middle of all our military bases.

 

[Silvanus]

The alternative is being subordinated to and controlled by a deeply authoritarian and even more nationalist, corrupt and plutocratic regime that abuses human rights along with breakfast, elevenses, lunch, afternoon tea, dinner and a nightcap...on the other side of the planet, which just happens to have better PR.

The influence of the US on Ukraine has always been dwarfed by Russian influence. Even during Euromaidan.

The alternative is letting them vote, and decide their own policy direction without violent coercion. The last election they had wasn't perfect by any means, but it was mostly free and fair-- and the worst examples of fraud came from two of the losing candidates.

Integration with Europe has majority support. Integration with Russia is overwhelmingly unpopular. Pursuing a direction of policy in line with popular support is simply not as "authoritarian" as pursuing a direction of policy in spite of it.

 

[Agema]

The alternative is being subordinated to and controlled by a deeply authoritarian and even more nationalist, corrupt and plutocratic regime that abuses human rights along with breakfast, elevenses, lunch, afternoon tea, dinner and a nightcap...on the other side of the planet, which just happens to have better PR.

Deluding oneself that the USA is even half as bad as Russia is a luxury of Western left-wing idiocy in people who don't have to experience the shit that goes on elsewhere.

Concentrating on the things you are more able to affect is very different from navel-gazing your way into trivialising just how awful places you can't affect are.

If we were to ask why Ukraine - a place traditionally firmly in the Russian sphere and within the last decade on good terms with Russia - has moved towards the West, the answer is simply that for all its sins, the West is a vastly nicer and more successful place than Russia.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

The alternative is letting them vote, and decide their own policy direction without violent coercion. The last election they had wasn't perfect by any means, but it was mostly free and fair-- and the worst examples of fraud came from two of the losing candidates.

But you don't understand! The Ukrainian worker class wants to be protected by the glorious umbrella of the USSR; it's just that evil capitalists have silenced their voices! So now Russia must regrettably shoot, rape and drop bombs on those workers until they are finally free to voice their true desires!

 

[Kwak]

A Russian diplomat to the U.N. quits, saying he is ashamed of his country

"Never have I been so ashamed of my country as on Feb. 24 of this year," veteran Russian diplomat Boris Bondarev wrote, alluding to the date of Russia's invasion.

www.npr.org

DAVOS, Switzerland — A veteran Russian diplomat to the U.N. Office at Geneva says he handed in his resignation before sending out a scathing letter to foreign colleagues inveighing against the "aggressive war unleashed" by Russian President Vladimir Putin in Ukraine.

Boris Bondarev, 41, confirmed his resignation in a letter delivered Monday morning after a diplomatic official passed on his English-language statement to The Associated Press.

"For twenty years of my diplomatic career I have seen different turns of our foreign policy, but never have I been so ashamed of my country as on Feb. 24 of this year," he wrote, alluding to the date of Russia's invasion.
....
In his English-language statement, which he said he emailed to about 40 diplomats and others, Bondarev said those who conceived the war "want only one thing — to remain in power forever, live in pompous tasteless palaces, sail on yachts comparable in tonnage and cost to the entire Russian Navy, enjoying unlimited power and complete impunity."

He railed against the growing "lies and unprofessionalism" at Russia's Foreign Ministry and took particular aim at Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov.

"In 18 years, he (Lavrov) went from a professional and educated intellectual ... to a person who constantly broadcasts conflicting statements and threatens the world with nuclear weapons!" he wrote. "Today, the (Russian) Ministry of Foreign Affairs is not about diplomacy. It is all about warmongering, lies and hatred."

 

[Dalisclock]

A Russian diplomat to the U.N. quits, saying he is ashamed of his country

"Never have I been so ashamed of my country as on Feb. 24 of this year," veteran Russian diplomat Boris Bondarev wrote, alluding to the date of Russia's invasion.

www.npr.org

DAVOS, Switzerland — A veteran Russian diplomat to the U.N. Office at Geneva says he handed in his resignation before sending out a scathing letter to foreign colleagues inveighing against the "aggressive war unleashed" by Russian President Vladimir Putin in Ukraine.

Boris Bondarev, 41, confirmed his resignation in a letter delivered Monday morning after a diplomatic official passed on his English-language statement to The Associated Press.

"For twenty years of my diplomatic career I have seen different turns of our foreign policy, but never have I been so ashamed of my country as on Feb. 24 of this year," he wrote, alluding to the date of Russia's invasion.
....
In his English-language statement, which he said he emailed to about 40 diplomats and others, Bondarev said those who conceived the war "want only one thing — to remain in power forever, live in pompous tasteless palaces, sail on yachts comparable in tonnage and cost to the entire Russian Navy, enjoying unlimited power and complete impunity."

He railed against the growing "lies and unprofessionalism" at Russia's Foreign Ministry and took particular aim at Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov.

"In 18 years, he (Lavrov) went from a professional and educated intellectual ... to a person who constantly broadcasts conflicting statements and threatens the world with nuclear weapons!" he wrote. "Today, the (Russian) Ministry of Foreign Affairs is not about diplomacy. It is all about warmongering, lies and hatred."

Unfortunately the poor guy is likely going to "Fall down an elevator shaft" in the next few months for his honesty.

 

[Gordon_4]

Unfortunately the poor guy is likely going to "Fall down an elevator shaft" in the next few months for his honesty.

Or cut himself shaving. Or any number of other nefarious methods of obvious execution open to the FSB.

 

[Dalisclock]

Or cut himself shaving. Or any number of other nefarious methods of obvious execution open to the FSB.

"He unfortunately accidentally slit his own throat while combing his hair. Do not ask questions. Is known to be contagious"

Don't worry. We're sure to hear how the CIA/NSA is far worse then the FSB and we should be talking about their many many crimes so we're not talking about anything bad Russia does. I just have this feeling this particular conversation is rushing towards us as I type this.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Or cut himself shaving. Or any number of other nefarious methods of obvious execution open to the FSB.

The old poisoned umbrella thing was pretty clever, I have to say. But then it was made to be covert, not a statement.

 

[Silvanus]

The old poisoned umbrella thing was pretty clever, I have to say. But then it was made to be covert, not a statement.

Methods like the nerve agent that the Russian government semi-recently used to try to assassinate targets in the UK are quite interesting from a psychological point of view.

There's clearly a statement in there. It's a known nerve agent that the Russian government produces and uses; it's aimed at a known Russian target; then known Russian assassins turn up in the same town. There's an implicit threat to anyone else who might consider defecting: you're not safe if you do. For that reason, they wanted to make it obvious it was them, and they did.

... but then they also want to be able to deny it to other world governments. Regardless of how little credibility that denial has, they want to be able to deny it, in order to carry on insisting that they be treated diplomatically and given concessions.

So we end up in a situation where the Russian government gives statements that everybody who has any awareness of the situation knows are false, and the Russian government knows that they know that, but they carry on all the same.

It's the equivalent of those manipulative bullies at school who would hit someone, immediately deny they did it to their victim's face, and then-- if the victim contradicted them-- would say "Are you calling me a liar!?" until the victim would just meekly say no and walk away with a bruised arm.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Oh yeah, though there's a lot of that going around nowdays.

 

[Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)]

Russia ready to set up corridor for ships leaving Ukraine with food, with conditions

Russia is ready to provide a humanitarian corridor for vessels carrying food to leave Ukraine, in return for the lifting of some sanctions, the Interfax news agency cited Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Andrei Rudenko as saying on Wednesday.

www.reuters.com

Extortion time