Understanding Dark Souls difficulty

[zinho73]

Also, on a personal note: if the game had an easy mode I would probably have succumbed to it, robbing myself of the true experience of the game.

MINOR SPOILERS AHEAD!









On the very first boss, on the undead asylum, I simply did not understand what I had to do and died numerous times until I finally beat the thing with the hilt sword. I thought to myself: "My god, this game is insanely difficult, this is going to be impossible to play".

My second breaking point was the Capra Demon, which I fought without resins and with an unupgraded weapon. This kind of suffering is crucial to a later part in the game when you see 12 of those guys waiting for you (and you destroy them).

If you do not want to discover those things for yourself, you can always look at youtube to see the tricks to each boss and there you have your easy mode. If you cannot execute the tricks you see on youtube than this is really not the game for you (but a lot of other games would not be either).

 

[zinho73]

Why some people climb mountains? It is a mix of a personal challenge, the joy of the sport itself and the knowledge that not everyone can do it. That's the Dark Souls experience.

But you can just as well rent a helicopter to take you to the top or let someone carry you up there. That fact does not take away the accomplishment of climbing a mountain by yourself, just as the existence of lower difficulty settings doesn't diminish the "bragging rights" of higher ones.

I agree. Those shortcuts are already in the game. Most of the bosses have very easy ways to deal with them. In some you do not even risk to get harmed. Not every game need direction arrows and glowing spots.

Seriously, in the videogame world nowadays people are just too used to the mountain coming to them.

 

[DarkTenka]

I just have a problem with people complaining that a game "sucks because its too hard". If you cant beat the game then its not the game that sucks, its YOU that sucks! Quitting is for pussies, only if you persist will you know the true feeling of achievement.

 

[rbstewart7263]

snip

HEAR HEAR! SIR!. I really wish people would go halfway through the game before trying to decide whether a different difficulty is appropriate.

 

[zinho73]

I just have a problem with people complaining that a game "sucks because its too hard". If you cant beat the game then its not the game that sucks, its YOU that sucks! Quitting is for pussies, only if you persist will you know the true feeling of achievement.

And you know what? I'm one of those pussies. I love fighting games but I'm terrible at them, so I always go to the easy settings first thing.

I'm really happy that such a thing as easy settings exist. I just do not agree that every game needs them. Some games are made to be leisurely enjoyed and some games are made to be conquered.

And I also agree that some games can be a mix of the two. But not all.

Capcha: real mccoy!

 

[The Wykydtron]

Hmm, putting aside the sometimes unfair deaths (fuck anyone who says all deaths are fair, I have several examples if anyone wants to test me) later on the difficulty felt kinda samey...

If there is a doorway, there will be one guy ahead of the doorway and two in the blind spots to the side of the doorway. To punish the idiots who rush after the one they can see. This happens extremely often, it just gets boring to be honest. You play the game long enough to read what the game is going to do, which to some people is good but if they are really going for difficulty then wouldn't it make sense to switch up the tricks a tad?

It's still a good game don't get me wrong but I would like the level of trickiness of Sen's Fortress applied to whole game but in smaller doses pretty much.

Also would it kill them to make the story elements somewhat noticeable on your first,second or even third playthrough? No and don't tell me to look at the wiki, if I have to read a wiki to understand the majority of the story and characters you're clearly doing it wrong.

There's having a subtle underlying story then there's having fuck all happen. In fact I wouldn't blame anyone for giving up before the Gargoyles because you have literally no motivation to go through all this shit. Apart from the basic "this shit will not beat me" mentality you may or may not have.

 

[Windcaler]

Out of curiousity, would everyone agree with having an easy mode if the current (default regular game not NG+ or NG++) was the easy mode? I would be totally fine with that but Im curious what others would say.

I agree that the game definately doesnt need to be accessible to everyone, at least not in a way that isnt done already. Everyone can play it, everyone can practice against fights and play the same game. There are tons of strategy videos and full walkthroughs/lets plays on youtube. Not to mention 2 very well done wiki's. The only real thing hurting the experience right now IMO is all the PVP twinks

There is something to be said about being able to finish a game that other people cant. I mean I cant for the life of me finish Ninja Gaiden (the original) despite thousands of hours put into it but I take some ammount of pride in the fact that I could finish Dark souls. I could hack it and some gamers cant. Maybe thats a little selfish but no more so then people wanting the game to be easier for them

 

[Krantos]

I still say the game should have more save points. If I've already proven I can get passed an area, being forced to go through it again is not going to do anything but raise my blood pressure.

I applaud what Dark Souls is doing, but I think, sometimes, people are holding on to the wrong things.

Furthermore, if you say that Dark Souls is all about the difficulty, and sacrificing that would diminish it, then you can't really praise the story, setting, etc. (not saying you would, just for instance).

The desire for an "easier" mode is rooted in an urge to see that rest of the game without the difficulty. If you claim that shouldn't be done, then you're insinuating that those things are without value. Only the difficulty is noteworthy.

 

[PissOffRoth]

It is true it is fun to stroll around and find things out by your own, true, but i find it slightly obnoxious if you have to check out FAQs to get basic info.

This is my main problem with Dark Souls. Information that should be fairly standard and easy to access is completely absent from this game, and we have to resort to guessing and compiling hit-and-miss data on outside wikis. I don't want maps and walkthroughs and that kind of hand-holding, but detailed item stats? Straight-forward answers about faction rewards? This isn't rocket science.

Still, I guess you can't have a perfect game. Maybe the next Souls game will learn even more from user feedback.

 

[zinho73]

Hmm, putting aside the sometimes unfair deaths (fuck anyone who says all deaths are fair, I have several examples if anyone wants to test me) later on the difficulty felt kinda samey...

If there is a doorway, there will be one guy ahead of the doorway and two in the blind spots to the side of the doorway. To punish the idiots who rush after the one they can see. This happens extremely often, it just gets boring to be honest. You play the game long enough to read what the game is going to do, which to some people is good but if they are really going for difficulty then wouldn't it make sense to switch up the tricks a tad?

It's still a good game don't get me wrong but I would like the level of trickiness of Sen's Fortress applied to whole game but in smaller doses pretty much.

Also would it kill them to make the story elements somewhat noticeable on your first,second or even third playthrough? No and don't tell me to look at the wiki, if I have to read a wiki to understand the majority of the story and characters you're clearly doing it wrong.

There's having a subtle underlying story then there's having fuck all happen. In fact I wouldn't blame anyone for giving up before the Gargoyles because you have literally no motivation to go through all this shit. Apart from the basic "this shit will not beat me" mentality you may or may not have.

I kind of like the WTF is going on thing of the beginning, but I get what you are saying.

Even following the story is different in this game (most of it are in the items description) and sparse NPCs dialogue.

I also don't think that the game is perfect and several aspects of it can improve (including difficulty, which could be toned down in a few cases but could also easily be even higher in several spots), but a whole dedicated easy mode is something largely unnecessary.

 

[zinho73]

I still say the game should have more save points. If I've already proven I can get passed an area, being forced to go through it again is not going to do anything but raise my blood pressure.

I applaud what Dark Souls is doing, but I think, sometimes, people are holding on to the wrong things.

Furthermore, if you say that Dark Souls is all about the difficulty, and sacrificing that would diminish it, then you can't really praise the story, setting, etc. (not saying you would, just for instance).

The desire for an "easier" mode is rooted in an urge to see that rest of the game without the difficulty. If you claim that shouldn't be done, then you're insinuating that those things are without value. Only the difficulty is noteworthy.

Imagine a beautiful girl that is pretty hard to get. The difficulty is not the girl - what you want is the girl but the difficulty would make a stolen kiss an even more rewarding accomplishment.

 

[zinho73]

Out of curiousity, would everyone agree with having an easy mode if the current (default regular game not NG+ or NG++) was the easy mode? I would be totally fine with that but Im curious what others would say.

I agree that the game definately doesnt need to be accessible to everyone, at least not in a way that isnt done already. Everyone can play it, everyone can practice against fights and play the same game. There are tons of strategy videos and full walkthroughs/lets plays on youtube. Not to mention 2 very well done wiki's. The only real thing hurting the experience right now IMO is all the PVP twinks

There is something to be said about being able to finish a game that other people cant. I mean I cant for the life of me finish Ninja Gaiden (the original) despite thousands of hours put into it but I take some ammount of pride in the fact that I could finish Dark souls. I could hack it and some gamers cant. Maybe thats a little selfish but no more so then people wanting the game to be easier for them

I think Dark Souls should be one game. It really works beautifully like that. The unifying experience makes the whole "difficult" way more interesting.

 

[daveman247]

On the very first boss, on the undead asylum, I simply did not understand what I had to do and died numerous times until I finally beat the thing with the hilt sword. I thought to myself: "My god, this game is insanely difficult, this is going to be impossible to play".

My second breaking point was the Capra Demon, which I fought without resins and with an unupgraded weapon. This kind of suffering is crucial to a later part in the game when you see 12 of those guys waiting for you (and you destroy them).

If you do not want to discover those things for yourself, you can always look at youtube to see the tricks to each boss and there you have your easy mode. If you cannot execute the tricks you see on youtube than this is really not the game for you (but a lot of other games would not be either).

Looks like you missed some crucial tactics on the first few bosses, making it MUCH harder than it needs to be XD


I remember when my friend showed me demons souls, he thought i was going to be destroyed on the first few levels. What he didnt know was that i play last gen games and further fairly often. So like you siad, my "correct skill set" was fairly well honed XD


Like you said, the games really not that hard, you just have to play it slowly, which i did once i saw how much damage a hit from an enemy takes from you!

 

[dancinginfernal]

I still say the game should have more save points. If I've already proven I can get passed an area, being forced to go through it again is not going to do anything but raise my blood pressure.

More Lordvessel points, at least. All bonfires should be able to be teleported to, that alone would save a lot of aggravation.

 

[demoman_chaos]

-snip-

I thought the open door in that area was easy to spot, that or they told you about it somehow. It has been a while since I have played it so I don't remember.

That Capra Demon fight is nonsense more because of those two dogs.

 

[Krantos]

*snip

Imagine a beautiful girl that is pretty hard to get. The difficulty is not the girl - what you want is the girl but the difficulty would make a stolen kiss an even more rewarding accomplishment.

See, but that's my point.

The kiss and the girl are still desirable things. the success of overcoming the challenge is just a perk.

If she wasn't hard to get you'd still want/enjoy the kiss.

In retrospect, that may have been a bad analogy, because "easy girls" comes with a lot of negative connotations that "easy games" does not.

Additionally, there's the issue of objectifying the girl in question so you're only getting the kiss to bolster your own ego.... and I'm over thinking this now.

Anyway you get the idea. Girl is still pretty, and kiss is still desirable/enjoyable even if you don't need to work for it.


Kissing booth, anyone?

 

[zinho73]

-snip-

I thought the open door in that area was easy to spot, that or they told you about it somehow. It has been a while since I have played it so I don't remember.

That Capra Demon fight is nonsense more because of those two dogs.

I actually saw the door after a while, but since I made the health of the demon really low on the last try, I think to myself that i might as well try a couple times and then quit the game for good.

But, yes, I was dumb. After defeating the monster I actually left the game alone for a week or so. I don't even know why I returned to it.

 

[zinho73]

*snip

Imagine a beautiful girl that is pretty hard to get. The difficulty is not the girl - what you want is the girl but the difficulty would make a stolen kiss an even more rewarding accomplishment.

See, but that's my point.

The kiss and the girl are still desirable things. the success of overcoming the challenge is just a perk.

If she wasn't hard to get you'd still want/enjoy the kiss.

In retrospect, that may have been a bad analogy, because "easy girls" comes with a lot of negative connotations that "easy games" does not.

Additionally, there's the issue of objectifying the girl in question so you're only getting the kiss to bolster your own ego.... and I'm over thinking this now.

Anyway you get the idea. Girl is still pretty, and kiss is still desirable/enjoyable even if you don't need to work for it.


Kissing booth, anyone?

Yeah, objectifying and bad connotations aside, the interesting about Dark Souls is that the girl isn't really difficult, it just appears so because she was intelligent and not superficial and... OK! I will just stop, this analogy is getting the point across but is getting worse by the minute...

 

[CrazyBlaze]

I just wish it was clearer on explaining stuff. Like the Stat bonus. Why not just tell me how much it adds to the damage the weapon does already. Why add a grade when grade b for one weapon and grade b for another one give different bonuses. Why not just tell me it adds 25 physical and 13 magic.

 

[zinho73]

Understanding Dark Souls difficulty:

Those who play, and succeed in the series, don't want anyone else to join their 'club'.

*shrugs

I'd go back to the series if it had an 'easier' mode. Played both, beat a few bosses, then bailed at the frustration. I'm a quitter. Heaven forbid we get 'a different game' that doesn't change anything at all of what the 'true fans' like.

It's not that I clamoring for one mind you, but I would like it.

I would not deny that many people are attracted to the "status" of beating a difficult game.

But to me the major issue that plays a part here is the challenge: can I do it? Can I beat Capra on the first try? Can I kill the Dragon on the bridge? Can I turn this apparently impossible situation into an easy thing?

An easy mode makes people stopping asking those kind of questions. With some many games playing that part already, I'm glad that at least a few are still challenging players.

You are not into it and I get it. That's why I don't play some fighters even in easy mode.

As I said, I really am the guy that goes unashamedly for the easy mode in games, but thinking that every game should have that option because I want to see the final cutscene is simply not the way to go. It is selfish and limiting for us and for the videogame industry.