Undertale is one of the best games I have ever played.

The Wykydtron

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Sep 23, 2010
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So is this one of those games that tries to guilt you into feeling bad about killing the enemies? An 8-bit Spec Ops: The Line sort of thing? Ehhhhhh I dunno, maybe i'll get it whenever it goes on sale but I don't really care for the retro 8-bit look and i'm over the novelty of a game saying "you know thinking about it, killing all of these people that we told you to kill is actually really fucked up, good job you"
 

loa

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The Wykydtron said:
i'm over the novelty of a game saying "you know thinking about it, killing all of these people that we told you to kill is actually really fucked up, good job you"
Nobody tells you to kill anything. And no, that's not the "twist".
 

Nuuu

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loa said:
The Wykydtron said:
i'm over the novelty of a game saying "you know thinking about it, killing all of these people that we told you to kill is actually really fucked up, good job you"
Nobody tells you to kill anything. And no, that's not the "twist".
Flowey technically tells you to kill through his "Kill or be killed" shtick at the beginning of the game, but considering how he just tried to kill you, I wouldn't count his advice as the most trustworthy of sort.
 

DEAD34345

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The Wykydtron said:
So is this one of those games that tries to guilt you into feeling bad about killing the enemies? An 8-bit Spec Ops: The Line sort of thing? Ehhhhhh I dunno, maybe i'll get it whenever it goes on sale but I don't really care for the retro 8-bit look and i'm over the novelty of a game saying "you know thinking about it, killing all of these people that we told you to kill is actually really fucked up, good job you"
No, it's really the opposite, at least from what I've played of it so far. The game tells you not to kill people, but there isn't really any serious negative repercussions for doing so if you really want to. That said, you probably will feel guilty if you do so, not because the game guilt trips you but just because having these awesome creatures die is sad.

I really didn't like Spec Ops: The Line, but I'm ready to wholeheartedly recommend this game already after about an hour played. I've already experienced more emotional highs and lows than anything Spec Ops ever managed to get out of me, but most of all the game is genuinely funny, unlike almost every other game I've ever played.
 

Eric the Orange

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Apr 29, 2008
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babinro said:
Jim Sterling did a 30 minute video on the game here:
[link]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHjQymYy8EM[/link]

I'm on the fence about this title for a few reasons:

1) I've heard games get 10/10 Game of the Year level mass praise in the past only to find that they were mediocre to bad experiences for me. (Shovel Knight, Dragon Age Inquisition, Grand Theft Auto 4)

2) Jim's 30 minute playthrough accounts for about 1/10th of the entire game and comes off as rather boring. The story and characters failed to hook me in this time frame. The combat is novel with the ability to friend people and a little bullet hell added in. This makes the game interesting to be sure but it's not a game selling feature especially with the sheer number of random encounters faced turning it into a grind. Finally the few puzzles that were shown off didn't strike me as anything special. Worse yet they just ensured you'd be forced to face a LOT more random encounters.

I'm a fan of classic FF games but this game doesn't promote RPG elements that makes grinding monster battles over and over tolerable. There's no equipment, skills, classes, or stats to manage. It's just a question of if you decide to kill or befriend.

I acknowledge that Jim made his video deliberately spoiler free. But given my initial impressions do you genuinely think I'll still love this game? Or is it a case that if that initial video didn't remotely sell me then I probably won't enjoy the game?
Yeah Jims Video didn't really show off the game very well.

1) It's possible you don't like it, I've seen some that don't. Do you like earthbound or mother 3 cause it's kind of like those.

2) It's a very personal game, I haven't seen any videos of it that really grabed me like playing it did. The puzzles are fine . nothing to write home about really, but the ones in jims video were the easy tutorial ones so the later ones are harder. Their isn't really a lot of random encounters, You'll probably only fight the same enemies maybe 5-10 times in a playthrough. their is a reason their there though, it has to do with a certain playthrough.
 

briankoontz

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Nuuu said:
loa said:
The Wykydtron said:
i'm over the novelty of a game saying "you know thinking about it, killing all of these people that we told you to kill is actually really fucked up, good job you"
Nobody tells you to kill anything. And no, that's not the "twist".
Flowey technically tells you to kill through his "Kill or be killed" shtick at the beginning of the game, but considering how he just tried to kill you, I wouldn't count his advice as the most trustworthy of sort.
Flowey is a example of the representation of "evil" and what it tries to accomplish - it's similar to "giving in to the Dark Side" in Star Wars. He's an attempt by the game to present a typical monster in an RPG - malicious to the character, hostile, and "deserving" of extermination.

Flowey's goal is the "goal of evil" - to spread the ideology of "kill or be killed" - the precise ideology that games have taught us is "right and natural" and most of all fun, and why games so extensively demonize their enemies so as to not distract us away from the "kill or be killed" mantra during our slaughter of them.

The game implies that this is what happened to Flowey - his weakness of character led him to believe in "kill or be killed" and his actions fell into logical line with that philosophy. He attacks the character (after first lulling her into a sense of security) without provocation - just as games have taught us to do as objects in the world are bags of loot and XP for us to harvest.
 

loa

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briankoontz said:
Flowey is a example of the representation of "evil" and what it tries to accomplish - it's similar to "giving in to the Dark Side" in Star Wars. He's an attempt by the game to present a typical monster in an RPG - malicious to the character, hostile, and "deserving" of extermination.

Flowey's goal is the "goal of evil" - to spread the ideology of "kill or be killed" - the precise ideology that games have taught us is "right and natural" and most of all fun, and why games so extensively demonize their enemies so as to not distract us away from the "kill or be killed" mantra during our slaughter of them.

The game implies that this is what happened to Flowey - his weakness of character led him to believe in "kill or be killed" and his actions fell into logical line with that philosophy. He attacks the character (after first lulling her into a sense of security) without provocation - just as games have taught us to do as objects in the world are bags of loot and XP for us to harvest.
Flowey is more of a smokescreen to use your own expectations against you.

After that intro you expect to be betrayed. You're a bit on edge. It's just a matter of time.
Something is gonna happen because it's "kill or be killed" and you've seen it all play out in other games and stories, right?
This may lead to you doing something you thought was inevitable but then turned out regretting.
And look who's there to point out to you that it was, in actuality, a choice. Hope you like your choice.

But hey, it's not like you can go back and fix mistakes *wink wink*.
It's not like you are above consequence or something.
It's not like someone can LOAD their SAVEFILE to RETRY.

It is a huge disservice to dismiss flowey as "evil".
He is your tutor. If you care to listen.
 

Eric the Orange

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Apr 29, 2008
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loa said:
My read on it was a bit different

If you do the full genocide ending He talks to you and he says his reasons for wanting to kill everyone is because HE CAN. He's stopped feeling and doesn't care anymore, he's tried being nice he's tried ignoring people, now he just wants to see what would happen. I felt in this way he was mimicking how the player reacts to wanting to do the genocide ending. Flowey is essentially the player after having beaten the game so many times he just wants to try out all the options.
 

loa

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Eric the Orange said:
loa said:
My read on it was a bit different

If you do the full genocide ending He talks to you and he says his reasons for wanting to kill everyone is because HE CAN. He's stopped feeling and doesn't care anymore, he's tried being nice he's tried ignoring people, now he just wants to see what would happen. I felt in this way he was mimicking how the player reacts to wanting to do the genocide ending. Flowey is essentially the player after having beaten the game so many times he just wants to try out all the options.
There are multiple layers to everything he does.
And doesn't do.

He'll point you towards a certain path if you let him.
And what happens at the end of it?

He'll make a promise that he'll give you the "happy ending" you want if you can beat him.
And then you're in a battle you can not lose. After which he keeps his promise.
Whatacoincidencehuh.
It's almost like he'll point you towards the ending he thinks you'd like most.

And then? Well he begs you to STOP.
Don't restart the game and try out all the options.

At no point does he hint towards how to get on the genocide path which requires some very specific, deliberate, monotonous work.

But if you go that way, that's fine with him too.
At least turning everything to dust means closure and he can connect to the childhood friend you remind him of.
And that makes him feel something.

But wait, what happens next?
More encouragement for you to keep pressing on and go all the way from the murderous monsterflower?
 

ensouls

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Feb 1, 2010
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Sounds like a mix of Earthbound and OFF.. will definitely have to look into this one
 

briankoontz

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inu-kun said:
Yeah, the game has a deconstruction of fighting monsters but it's extremely generous in that respect, letting you redo it as long as you don't go over the edge (which you need to force yourself to get there), it's more of criticism of min-maxing, farming monsters for a goal to be strongest or see how everything goes wrong, especially if you got the best ending already and rather than let the game "end" you decide to, for a lack of a better term, "rape" it to see how disfigured it can get. The thing is, in most games there is no talk button making this criticism pointless, in the end games are virtual world and your action don't reflect anything.
That's not at all true, which can be seen more easily in other forms of art because we're not as emotionally involved in defending them. There are people who refuse to see the Saw series because they don't like gore, and people who don't enjoy romantic comedies. Content matters, and it says something about our identity what artistic content we choose to become involved with - Demographics concurs.

We don't need to acknowledge nonsense, like the idea that killing digital code equates to killing a living creature. But we shouldn't fear ridiculous arguments just because those arguments are backed up by political power. We shouldn't say "games have no effects" because we fear the argument of "games are murder simulators" and whatnot. If we warp our own view of video games in order to try to maximize our political power we might end up with some power, but we lose truth and integrity.

The very *lack* of a talk button in most RPGs is meaningful - we're trained as video game players to ruthlessly make our way through the narrative, and anything that gets in our way is quickly dispatched. Most game designs *require* brutality because without it one is too weak to proceed through the narrative - creatures in the world are harvested - their lives broken down into Loot and XP to allow the protagonist to proceed. Creatures in games are usually depicted as monsters, terrible creatures that want to harm us, but as the saying goes if God didn't exist, we'd have to invent him. If there were no monsters to allow us to happily kill them to fuel our power progression, we'd have to psychologically modify our own identities to transform *innocent* creatures into monsters so that we could kill them to harvest their value for our own power progression. Put in another way, monsters are awfully *convenient* for a "hero" who needs to kill thousands of creatures to become powerful enough to stop the Big Bad.

This "power progression need" is made fun of in terms of "Link steals from villagers to buy items at the shop" - these seem to be quite poor people Link steals from, perhaps causing them true financial distress, but early in an RPG the "hero" is too weak to steal from powerful people and simply asking for donations to fuel his cause of saving the world doesn't work, because... ? It also begs the question of why it's often ONE person saving the world, while the rest of the population goes about their daily business. Is it really such a stretch to suppose that a "hero" in an RPG is actually a sociopathic megalomaniacal unhinged serial killer? Are they really monsters he's killing or just regular animals... or children? And sure, he becomes better and better at killing as he goes along... but that's hardly something to be proud of.

That we take this game design for granted indicates it's hegemony. It's the "air we breathe" and all is forgiven because the protagonist is simply wiser and braver than everyone else - he sees the Big Bad whereas a regular villager just sees another Asshole in Charge in a long line of them. He takes on thousands of monsters and the Big Bad whereas regular people actually value their own lives. Nevermind that all of this "bravery" is enabled by superpowering the main character and giving him a reload function.

The effect on us of video games is similar to the effect we experience with other forms of art. Watching Saw doesn't make you become a serial killer but it does have effects - if it's well acted perhaps we can learn what a human sounds like who's having their leg cut off (the actor's best rendition of it, anyway) - not something most of us have personal experience with.

I completely agree that we shouldn't celebrate "butterfly and rainbow" games in the hope that we shit those things after playing them. The point of acknowledging the reality that game content matters is not to denounce violent games and celebrate non-violent ones but to continue our exploration of what games actually are. It's self-defeating to be too scared to analyze games because we believe the result of that analysis will be to shut down game creation - at that point we need to be outside reality in our discussion of games, which would be the death of game criticism.

inu-kun said:
Also, trying to pin the monsters as victims and heroes as villains (in an established work) becomes a insane point I see lately (especially in Lord Of The Rings, usually be people who never read the background materials or even the friggin' books), besides, there are works that really do it, but if it's not explained then we don't need to really think about it too much.
I agree with you that this game is not about the Evil Humans terrorizing the Innocent Monsters. The first lines of the game lay out it's view of the "two races" - "Long ago, two races ruled over Earth: HUMANS and MONSTERS. One day, war broke out between the two races."

So BOTH races are imperial - before the monsters were sealed underground they ruled over Earth, by which is implied they dominated the "other races" on Earth, such as other animals. Likewise, the humans are not blamed for the war - it just "broke out", as if it happened unintentionally or at the very least has no discernable or discrete cause. Because there's no moral judgment in favor of either the monsters or the humans, in theory if the monsters had won the surface war the monsters may have sealed the humans underground instead.
 

loa

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inu-kun said:
Edit: I'll also add that it is essential to tell the player if they do something wrong, entering a game is like entering a new world (especially if it's a fantasy one), you need to be told what's right and wrong, or at least get a point of reference other than basic hurting other humans/people of your race is wrong.
I disagree.
Secrets are nice.
Finding out that say, in a metroidvania platformer, your choice of not attacking enemies as a challenge run actually ends up modifying the story to reflect your actions is neat.
It is always nice if a game acknowledges your actions even if it is just 1 additional line of text.
Sticking the labels of "right" and "wrong" onto this is just limiting and robs players of the experience of finding out themselves.

Way too few games do this and just railroad you through the plot without considering what you actually DO like the gameplay is just this barely related thing to move you forward between cutscenes.
 

Benpasko

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Got the true ending last night. Game of the goddamn year.

So many strong characters, it's really hard to choose a favorite. Even Alphys is great, knowing what I now know.
 

Eric the Orange

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Apr 29, 2008
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10 Play throughs and 40 hours later and I think I may finally be done with Undertale. That's not to say I won't play it again some day but for now I think that will be enough.