Undertale May Be This Year's Best Written Game

[Gul]

Second, RPGs have always been designed as combat simulators, the genre began life as an evolution of tabletop wargames. Stories were added to give context to the action, but they were games about killing stuff first and foremost. The idea of RPGs being all about emotional gobbledygook is a modern invention.

That doesn't make it a bad thing. Why should we adhere to tradition merely because we always have? There is no progress in that way, no advancement, just stagnation and ruin - indeed, like you yourself say, RPGs are an evolution of tabletop wargames, so why should they not evolve further?

Besides, you can still treat it as a regular RPG by killing them all. It'll give you basically the same experience most RPGs do - carve your way through a dungeon of monsters, get out, have an ending. I don't see why presenting an option to not do so is somehow such a terrible thing.

 

[Pyrian]

Well, first off it's not murder if someone attacks you first.

Incorrect - if you incapacitate an attacker and then kill them, it's murder. First-degree murder, at that.

Second, RPGs have always been designed as combat simulators, the genre began life as an evolution of tabletop wargames. Stories were added to give context to the action, but they were games about killing stuff first and foremost. The idea of RPGs being all about emotional gobbledygook is a modern invention.

RPG's are a pretty modern invention, but the idea of RPG's being about "emotional gobbledygook" and other non-lethal solutions took about an hour and a half from the time they were ported from tabletop wargames. That's been a part of the RPG spectrum for much longer than it wasn't. 1st edition AD&D has a full set of rules for various types of non-lethal combat. By 2nd edition social skills "non-weapon proficiencies" started making appearances.

 

[freaper]

I feel like a cock for disliking this game. It's too quirky for me, but I can appreciate its qualities.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

Seriously, am I the only one who finds this game kinda hypocritical?

Literally everything is trying to kill you, but you're a terrible person for killing in self defense.

In the genocide run

Spoiler

You lock yourself out of the good ending permanently, but yet the game calls everyone who watches it on youtube a bunch of cowards

I'd point out the designated judging character only *really* calls you out as a bad person if you get super far into the murder thing, or kill a character who can't kill you and explicitly tries to spare you.

Also... <spoiler=Genocide Run Spoilers>the game doesn't tell you that, Flowey does. Flowey is a (literal) teenaged edgelord, taking it as an actual condemnation is like taking his "kill or be killed" speech at the beginning of the game seriously.

Second, RPGs have always been designed as combat simulators, the genre began life as an evolution of tabletop wargames. Stories were added to give context to the action, but they were games about killing stuff first and foremost. The idea of RPGs being all about emotional gobbledygook is a modern invention.

Strongly disagree, as a matter of fact I'd argue the opposite. Original CRPGs or DnD based RPGs had completely shit combat systems and focused on story as a result. The idea of sticking stats in an action game and calling it an "RPG" on the other-hand, strictly modern.

 

[Gul]

Original CRPGs or DnD based RPGs had completely shit combat systems and focused on story as a result.

Ah, Eye of the Beholder 2. Horrible combat system, restrictive tile-based 90-degree-turning mechanics, still has one of the best ending videos ever.

Come to think of it, I believe I haven't played through that one this year.

 

[Redryhno]

I feel like a cock for disliking this game. It's too quirky for me, but I can appreciate its qualities.

No worries, I like the characters and dialogue, can't be bothered to play through it anymore though. First playthrough was Genocide because I'd already seen the Pacifist run ending and I can say that I don't even want to try it again myself either.

 

[K12]

The Genocide run is brilliant... but I'll never play it myself because it's too heartbreaking. It's really brilliantly made despite the fact that the developer clearly doesn't want people to choose it at all. So many games have multiple endings but the develop has clearly made the game with only ending being engaging and satisfying.
The level of thought, detail and love that this game has had put into it's writing is wonderful.

 

[EyeReaper]

There's a vast difference between killing in self-defense and going on an outright genocide run. The game doesn't particularly condemn you for the former, aside from a character or two, certainly not constantly rubbing in how terrible person you are.

But if you go on a genocide run, then yes, you are pretty terrible.

Anyway, one of the game's messages is that if you can solve problems peacefully, then you probably should. You can be justified to kill someone in self-defense, but you know, it's really probably not the best thing you could do - and also keep in mind that even if you do defend yourself and beat enemies up rather than trying to befriend them, you can still spare them when they're sufficiently wounded. If you insist on dealing the final blow even when it's entirely unnecessary, then you can probably expect someone to call you out on it.

Also,

Spoiler

The game does not call you a bunch of cowards if you watch a genocide run on a video - a single character does. And that's not, by a long shot, the single most trustworthy character of them all either.

I will concede a point, I actually didn't know exactly how much effort it took to get all genocider. Apparently there's a lot of tedious grinding. However

Spoiler

I still stand by my assertion that we are supposed to take Flowey's fuck you to the audience at face value, much in the same vein as what he says when you kill Toriel, then reload and spare her.

First off The indie community already has a ton retro artsy games. Hell I would call it a stretch to call this game artsy. Second while this game has a pretty rabid fanbase the actual sales numbers are only OK.

Yes, there were also first person horror games before Slender, and games about building things before Minecraft. I see Undertale being the finishing blow that's going to fill a bunch of college indie devs with determination and think they can build the same experience with their pirated version of RPG Maker XP.

 

[ThinRedLine]

"I managed to pinpoint the precise moment when the old lower lip gets to quivering.."

Very close to my moment - mine would be after defeating the final boss and it tells you why it went through all this. I've felt that loneliness at times in my life, and also in a bad relationship which simply didn't work, but neither of us had the balls to break up because we thought we needed each other, but we're so alone even when together, I just collapsed the first time playing the game.

It's not a perfect game, by any means, and can only imagine how much better it would be with better art design and actual puzzles, but it is just damn good at what it tries to accomplish, and isn't that what the main merit in reviewing a game really should be?

 

[Saetha]

Snip

You REALLY have to aim for the genocide run to get it - like, you have to be explicitly trying to murder everything, either because you're trying to level grind, or you know the route's there and are trying to meet the requirements. If you spare even one enemy, no matter how insignificant, it pushes you off the genocide path and back onto a neutral run. Given that there're are enemies like moldsmall and Glad Dummy, which don't even attack and are immediately spare-able, you have to be gunning for murder intentionally. You also have to trigger and kill every random encounter in every area in the game, which is nearly a hundred encounters over all (In a game where you'll run into maybe two dozen or so without serious backtracking/grinding tactics). So, yeah, a lot of tedious effort. Pretty much the only way you can get it accidentally is if you level grind a ridiculous amount, which is kind of pointless on the genocide path since you can easily overpower nearly everyone.

Really, the point of the genocide route isn't to make you feel bad for killing (You can still kill, and frequently at that, without triggering the genocide route) It's more to poke at 100% completionists and people who grind to become as strong as they can be, regardless of whether or not they need to be.

No comment on how people will play copy-cat with this now. Probably will, if we're honest, although I'd say that "Earthbound Homage" is not exactly a new genre, and besides, it's a little unfair to blame something for being mimic'd by uncreative hacks.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

A friend of mine tried to get me to buy this game by showing me a let's play. It went over the segment where you met Papyrus and visit him in his home.

I'm not sold. My issue is that I have very little tolerance for outright silliness, and that seemed to be a large chunk of how the game works. I mean, I didn't care for Earthbound when I tried to play it, and everyone seems to be drawing parallels between that game and Undertale. Quirkiness for its own sake isn't something that appeals to me, and that seems to be most of what everyone seems to like about it.

It also doesn't help that people can't seem to talk about the game without spoiling plot points. "It's great, just go play it! I can't tell you why without ruining it!" isn't a great way to get me interested in a game. Yatzee even says it himself.

So there's not a lot of gameplay, and the story isn't my cup of tea. I'm not sure what to think about this game.

I'd still like to hear some thoughts; something this good should be worth playing, but first impressions have left me skeptical.

Well, if it makes ya more interested all the silliness (and there is a LOT of that) really builds up the pretty horrifying parts of the game. Not just the genocide run either. Things get a lot more serious in the end.

I'm talking horrifying abominations of combined dead bodies and dead children out to devour your soul for eternity.

Yeah, if you're playing a neutral or pacifism run things can all turn out as sunshine, rainbows, and butterscotch-cinnamon pie. However, not everything in the game is completely as innocent as The Great Papyrus.

As for gameplay, the basics are like what Yahtzee said. Turn based bullet hell kind of stuff. Though, each enemy has it's own attack pattern and the boss fights spice things up by changing how you move around the heart (or how you don't move around as it were).
I'm no expert on it so I can't say how it stacks up to other bullet hell stuff, but I don't really play any of those and still had a good time.

That said, if you can't like the gameplay or the characters, then the game probably won't do it for ya.
<.< Which I guess would be true of pretty much every game....
And you can play the game as someone who doesn't like Papyrus but doesn't kill him.
Hope this helps.

OT: I never played any of the Earthbound/Mother games, and I still really loved Undertale. For $9.99 I'd recommend it to anyone interested.

Also, 0-0 NEVER play a genocide run to completion. Yahtzee isn't kidding about about the consequences.
You could probably get out of it the same way people get out of the game knowing you killed someone (removing ALL the game data from your computer).

Unless you don't care at all about any of the characters and want them to suffer. Then it's the mode that's been made for you.

 

[Redryhno]

Snip

Really, the point of the genocide route isn't to make you feel bad for killing (You can still kill, and frequently at that, without triggering the genocide route) It's more to poke at 100% completionists and people who grind to become as strong as they can be, regardless of whether or not they need to be.

No comment on how people will play copy-cat with this now. Probably will, if we're honest, although I'd say that "Earthbound Homage" is not exactly a new genre, and besides, it's a little unfair to blame something for being mimic'd by uncreative hacks.

The one thing I really don't understand is that while I'm no means a completionist, alot of modern RPGs are designed around you either getting EVERYTHING the first playthrough, or multiple paths that all require different arbitrary level requirements. And there's just not really information beforehand. I mean, there's alot of JRPGs out there that aren't Final Fantasy that actually do require you to grind a bit(or just take a bunch of quests and do them with each branch of the main story) to progress. And that's ignoring the great little hidey holes of optional bosses and content that's gated by level and abilities gained.

Who knows, maybe it's poking fun at WRPGs, but it's using a more JRPG setup(at least if we're talking about modern games)...just alot of mixed signals I suppose

 

[marioandsonic]

Huh, I was wondering if you were going to do a ZP review of this game.

If it looks like you're not, does that mean it's excluded from your Top 5 games of the year list? After all, you need an indie game there to (as you once put it) maintain your pretentious game journalist cred.

Maybe it will be an honorable mention?

 

[Enlong]

On the subject of not liking a game hating you for wanting to play it, that's not quite the case here. The more engaging actions are dodging attacks, and figuring out the Act puzzles for ending fights. If you want to play the game, there's more game in not attacking.

 

[Saetha]

Snip

The one thing I really don't understand is that while I'm no means a completionist, alot of modern RPGs are designed around you either getting EVERYTHING the first playthrough, or multiple paths that all require different arbitrary level requirements. And there's just not really information beforehand. I mean, there's alot of JRPGs out there that aren't Final Fantasy that actually do require you to grind a bit(or just take a bunch of quests and do them with each branch of the main story) to progress. And that's ignoring the great little hidey holes of optional bosses and content that's gated by level and abilities gained.

Who knows, maybe it's poking fun at WRPGs, but it's using a more JRPG setup(at least if we're talking about modern games)...just alot of mixed signals I suppose

Hmm... I kinda see what you mean. Between Flowey's dialogue and Sans guilting you, it does seem to only be targeting completionist players... until you meet with the First Child at the very end. Maybe it's more specifically calling players who level grind past a point of sense (After all, FC's describes itself as "the feeling you get when a number goes up," so the pure rush of getting stronger, not unlocking more content and seeing something new) rather than players who level grind just to unlock some hidden content. The latter would fall more into the completionist category, since they're doing awful stuff just to see what'll happen.

 

[otakon17]

Sorry, but I find the idea of 'pacifist runs' in RPGs to be hopelessly dull and nonsensical. Like designing a Madden game where the football part is optional. "Ugh, I am so sick of all this ball-throwing stuff in these football games! Can't they ever innovate?!?" *eyeroll*. Please. I refuse to play yet another game which denigrates the player for the act of playing it.

Just think of it as an alternate way to beat fights, just less loot at the end.

 

[jhoroz]

It seems all the people "who don't get it" are people that have watched 5 seconds of an LP or listened about a minute to the soundtrack instead of going in blind and experiencing the entire thing on its own. Undertale is an experience that's greater than the sum of its parts, so I can only roll my eyes from all the comments here. This truly is the pinnacle of the youtube age of gaming, where everyone acts like an arm chair game designer by engaging with the minimum amount of effort.

I'm glad I took Yahtzee's advice in the beginning of this article. In an age where movies and games have lost any surprise and magic due to over marketing and spoiling the experience months of advance to its release (*cough Phantom Pain *cough) Undertale coming out of nowhere and giving me one of the most memorable experience this year was a pleasant surprise. I look forward to more of Toby Fox's output, and ignoring the over hyping and hype back lash back and forth vitriol that gets spouted when a cult game like this emerges.

 

[Thanatos2k]

So go through the game only in Genocide mode. You should get more than enough entertainment. There's absolutely no silliness to be found there.

That's the other problem. I'm not a sociopath.

I want to care about the characters, but being mildly annoying isn't a reason for me to kill everything. It is, however, reason enough for me to want to avoid them.

I can deal with a little silliness, but watching the fight with Papyrus just put me off of the game. A bad first impression, I suppose.

You appear to be overthinking this. The game is $10 and 5 hours long, what do you REALLY have to lose?

The game really has something for everyone.

I'd also like to point out that there is no such thing as a piece of entertainment that appeals to everyone. I don't care for the art style, I don't care for the meta-humor, and I don't care for the combat system. That doesn't make the game bad...I just don't think that it's for me.

Roll eyes. I hope I never get to the point where I can't enjoy good games.

Right....because saying "I don't like this" automatically means "I'm bad"...I got halfway through the genocide run's final boss(trying not to spoil, I think you know who I'm talking about) fight without using healing dude. I enjoy and have beaten some of the harder Osu beatmaps. No armor, no shield, all dodge/parry DS1&2 runs. It's not about being bad, it's about "I find this very annoying, to a point that it isn't enjoyable to play this game even though I enjoy the dialogue and story".

Ah, so first it's "just sitting around and spamming healing is boring" and now it's "I totally never healed once until the final boss." Sure bro. We believe you. You're the best at Undertale. It was so easy it's a bad game. Everyone is totally wrong about how awesome it is. You were right!

 

[Thanatos2k]

If you think murdering is to RPGs what football is to football, then you may have some issues.

Well, first off it's not murder if someone attacks you first. Second, RPGs have always been designed as combat simulators, the genre began life as an evolution of tabletop wargames. Stories were added to give context to the action, but they were games about killing stuff first and foremost. The idea of RPGs being all about emotional gobbledygook is a modern invention.

Which is why Undertale is SUCH a good game. It takes these kinds of expectations and slaps you personally in the face with them.

It seems all the people "who don't get it" are people that have watched 5 seconds of an LP or listened about a minute to the soundtrack instead of going in blind and experiencing the entire thing on its own. Undertale is an experience that's greater than the sum of its parts, so I can only roll my eyes from all the comments here. This truly is the pinnacle of the youtube age of gaming, where everyone acts like an arm chair game designer by engaging with the minimum amount of effort.

Seriously. When I hear "I watched a Let's Play and it looks boring" or "I got spoiled, but I don't think the game is that great" or "I listened to some of the music, the soundtrack isn't as good as you say!" I'm pounding my head into the desk. Play the game yourself. Form your own damn opinions. And do it cold.

I can't imagine how much worse incredible games like Danganronpa or 9 Hours 9 Persons 9 Doors would have been had I watched videos of gameplay halfway in, or gotten spoiled. Undertale is the same way. You need to play the game, YOU need to make your own choices without knowing what is going on, and let the game react to your playstyle.

 

[SlumlordThanatos]

You appear to be overthinking this. The game is $10 and 5 hours long, what do you REALLY have to lose?

I admit, I have a problem with this. I tend to put a lot of thought into my video game purchases, mostly because, right now, I'm a poor college student who just got finished writing his second paper in as many days. $10 could mean not getting something like Fallout 4 when it releases, or missing a phone bill or insurance payment.

I mean, I just bought Crypt of the NecroDancer a couple of days ago, and I probably really shouldn't have. I really can't afford to spend money on something that I'm even a little skeptical of.

But I suppose I can try the demo when I get some free time...eventually.