UPDATE: Video of Females on Female Characters Panel

[mattaui]

Curious to know whether female Commander Shepard came up during the panel. I find her to be an excellent video game character, and I believe her strong portrayal is due both the to the writing and voice acting. Also an interesting situation as, to the best of my knowledge, male Commander Shepard has largely (if not entirely) the same diologue options. But I never got the sense that female Commander Shepard was overly masculine. So there's a case where they've taken one character, given it two possible genders, and (I feel) managed to make them both come across well. At least, the female comes across well. I haven't played as male Shepard, so don't really know for sure.

There have been several articles crop up here recently regarding gender in games, and none of them have really mentioned Mass Effect that I'm aware of. It seems like it would be the perfect study in seeing how Sheppard is portrayed as being masculine or feminine, as opposed to simply being biologically male or female and saying the same lines or engaging in the same sort of conduct.

I do think there's a broader preference among men and women than just 'guys like x, women like y' because I've known guys and gals who like sexy, flirtatious characters and those who don't, those that like revealing armor and clothing, and those that don't.

Also, men are quite capable of writing engaging and believable female characters, just as plenty of woman can write authentic and interesting male characters, I've read plenty of books where that was the case, so there's no reason it can't hold true in games. But bad characterization is bad characterization, and it does happen in games more than it should, for male and female characters.

 

[Aeshi]

You really need to rephrase that title.

 

[Raithnor]

From a purely physical standpoint I don't get (and am not attracted to) Bayonetta's design at all. Her legs a freakishly long and she wears massive high heels to make them look even longer. She's the closest thing to an "Uncanny Valley" reaction I've ever had and I have a decent tolerance for that sort of thing.

I've created female characters in City of Heroes and more often than not I usually have to take them to the Tailor because her legs are too long when running about the city.

Female Shepard, which has already been mentioned previously, is a pretty good benchmark.

I do have a question for people who were there: Did Samus from "Other M" come up at all? If so, what was the opinion on her in that game?

 

[GiantRaven]

I have to wonder if 90% of the people who opine on character development have ever tried to develop a character. It really is not that easy.

Not suggesting anything specific, just putting that out there as a hypothetical.
[small]I think it's pretty stupid that I have to constantly make disclaimers to avoid mod wrath.[/small]

Yeah, but it isn't my job to make a good character. If you are given the task of creating and developing a character, then I don't see why it's wrong to be called out on it if you do a bad job, regardless of how difficult it may be.

 

[Raithnor]

You frighten and confuse me. Uncanny Valley is something that I find more descriptive of Fallout/Oblivion NPCs or those creepy Japanese gynoids.* And I'm not even sure what you're getting at in regards to CoH character creator. Are you saying you don't like long legs? That's fine and all, I suppose. But why not just say that instead of taking issue with character design?

The problem is when I look at her the legs look like they are *at least* 2.5-3X the length of the rest of her body. I do like women with nice legs, but even compared to the women in comic books her design seems unreal to me.

I use the term "Uncanny Valley" because I look at her and I don't see a real person. The Fallout/Oblivion models do look like they're undead but they at least look like something that might be human. Bayonetta looks like she's a Giraffe in black leather, and I thought that before Yahtzee did his review of the game.

 

[Wakefield]

Some valid points in there, for sure.

I'd strongly disagree on the character of Lightning in FFXIII due to actually liking that game (and the character), but I know well I'm in the minority on that opinion (in terms of the game as a whole itself in perspective), so I'll just leave it at that.

I'm a huge fan of FFXIII (Unlike a lot of people as you mentioned) Lighting had more depth then a lot of people give her credit for, and Fang was my favorite character.

Other then that, good panel, great to see women talking about this. Hopefully the hate on this board will be minimal.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

Some valid points in there, for sure.

I'd strongly disagree on the character of Lightning in FFXIII due to actually liking that game (and the character), but I know well I'm in the minority on that opinion (in terms of the game as a whole itself in perspective), so I'll just leave it at that.

I'm a huge fan of FFXIII (Unlike a lot of people as you mentioned) Lighting had more depth then a lot of people give her credit for, and Fang was my favorite character.

Other then that, good panel, great to see women talking about this. Hopefully the hate on this board will be minimal.

It seems rare these days I actually find another in my minority group of liking FXIII, and Lightning as a character.

Let's be fri- Oh, invite already?

 

[The Morrigan]

We discussed why her version of sex appeal is so much different than, say, that dumb whore from X-Blades.

Oh man, if I had made it up to the mike, I had every intention of asking you about X-Blades. *grins*

My problem with sexy women in games is - how many women you know that are that drop-down gorgeous? Real women are rarely sexy, at least not to video games' inflated standards. If you want to create deep characters start with someone who is at least average looking.

I think that the problem isn't so much that "real women are rarely sexy" as it is that real women (and men, and everything in between) are sexy in ways that go far beyond physical appearance. I can find someone who is not at all conventionally attractive to be extremely sexy, based on other factors (personality, interest, whether he can recite a plethora of TNG star dates to me, etc). I think it's probably harder to develop that type of charisma, though, for a video game character, which is why most of them are created to conform to our societal stereotypes of sexiness.

I do have a question for people who were there: Did Samus from "Other M" come up at all? If so, what was the opinion on her in that game?

Yup, Samus definitely came up. I believe that revulsion could best describe the reaction to her in Other M (correct me if I'm wrong, Susan).

All in all, it was a wonderful panel!!

 

[Formica Archonis]

Damn, this is some interesting discourse. Did anyone record (audio or a/v) the actual panel?

Yup, Samus definitely came up. I believe that revulsion could best describe the reaction to her in Other M (correct me if I'm wrong, Susan).

Revulsion works. I once explained the plot to someone and he said parts of it sounded like "bad torture fantasy".

 

[Programmed_For_Damage]

We discussed why her version of sex appeal is so much different than, say, that dumb whore from X-Blades.

Oh man, if I had made it up to the mike, I had every intention of asking you about X-Blades. *grins*

My problem with sexy women in games is - how many women you know that are that drop-down gorgeous? Real women are rarely sexy, at least not to video games' inflated standards. If you want to create deep characters start with someone who is at least average looking.

I think that the problem isn't so much that "real women are rarely sexy" as it is that real women (and men, and everything in between) are sexy in ways that go far beyond physical appearance. I can find someone who is not at all conventionally attractive to be extremely sexy, based on other factors (personality, interest, whether he can recite a plethora of TNG star dates to me, etc). I think it's probably harder to develop that type of charisma, though, for a video game character, which is why most of them are created to conform to our societal stereotypes of sexiness.

That's very true actually. I've known women who were borderline "ugly" in terms of aesthetics but the way they carried themselves and communicated made them strangely sexy. Then I've known women who were gorgeous to look at and you'd notice them in any room but were so awkward and ill at ease in their own skin that you wouldn't consider them sexy.

"Sexy" is something that is hard to define in real life, which would make it a nightmare to have to convey in digital form. Big tits and ass doesn't necessarily equal sexy; a couple of my red-blooded hetro friends don't even find that appealing. Hell, even back in the day Eddie Izzard was sexie ;-)

 

[The Morrigan]

Hell, even back in the day Eddie Izzard was sexie ;-)

Mmmmm, Eddie Izzard. Definitely sexy, especially in Glorious (also Velvet Goldmine).

 

[Wakefield]

Some valid points in there, for sure.

I'd strongly disagree on the character of Lightning in FFXIII due to actually liking that game (and the character), but I know well I'm in the minority on that opinion (in terms of the game as a whole itself in perspective), so I'll just leave it at that.

I'm a huge fan of FFXIII (Unlike a lot of people as you mentioned) Lighting had more depth then a lot of people give her credit for, and Fang was my favorite character.

Other then that, good panel, great to see women talking about this. Hopefully the hate on this board will be minimal.

It seems rare these days I actually find another in my minority group of liking FXIII, and Lightning as a character.

Let's be fri- Oh, invite already?

Just so you know, I highfived the screen. I think we'll make good friends.

 

[conflictofinterests]

I have to wonder if 90% of the people who opine on character development have ever tried to develop a character. It really is not that easy.

Not suggesting anything specific, just putting that out there as a hypothetical.
[small]I think it's pretty stupid that I have to constantly make disclaimers to avoid mod wrath.[/small]

I really enjoy P&P RPG's, and in particular fleshing out a character and figuring out what he or she would do in the situations he or she finds him- or her-self in. Not sure I could do that for all the NPC's that matter in a game in a reasonable amount of time to make said game, and prolly people don't feel like hiring enough "me"s to get the job done, so I see your point... It's just kind of disappointing to see the graphics so fleshed out when the writing isn't.

 

[conflictofinterests]

We discussed why her version of sex appeal is so much different than, say, that dumb whore from X-Blades.

Oh man, if I had made it up to the mike, I had every intention of asking you about X-Blades. *grins*

My problem with sexy women in games is - how many women you know that are that drop-down gorgeous? Real women are rarely sexy, at least not to video games' inflated standards. If you want to create deep characters start with someone who is at least average looking.

I think that the problem isn't so much that "real women are rarely sexy" as it is that real women (and men, and everything in between) are sexy in ways that go far beyond physical appearance. I can find someone who is not at all conventionally attractive to be extremely sexy, based on other factors (personality, interest, whether he can recite a plethora of TNG star dates to me, etc). I think it's probably harder to develop that type of charisma, though, for a video game character, which is why most of them are created to conform to our societal stereotypes of sexiness.

That's very true actually. I've known women who were borderline "ugly" in terms of aesthetics but the way they carried themselves and communicated made them strangely sexy. Then I've known women who were gorgeous to look at and you'd notice them in any room but were so awkward and ill at ease in their own skin that you wouldn't consider them sexy.

"Sexy" is something that is hard to define in real life, which would make it a nightmare to have to convey in digital form. Big tits and ass doesn't necessarily equal sexy; a couple of my red-blooded hetro friends don't even find that appealing. Hell, even back in the day Eddie Izzard was sexie ;-)

I, personally, don't really find people physically attractive. Like, ever. People arouse me when they act sexy. I've never been in on the conversation of physical attractiveness anyways, so I don't feel any MORE left out when I don't get the sexy scenes. It occurs to me though that I COULD be aroused by sexy scenes. People don't care to convey them as such, though, I suppose, as it would delve far into the territory you are discussing.

 

[conflictofinterests]

Curious to know whether female Commander Shepard came up during the panel. I find her to be an excellent video game character, and I believe her strong portrayal is due both the to the writing and voice acting. Also an interesting situation as, to the best of my knowledge, male Commander Shepard has largely (if not entirely) the same diologue options. But I never got the sense that female Commander Shepard was overly masculine. So there's a case where they've taken one character, given it two possible genders, and (I feel) managed to make them both come across well. At least, the female comes across well. I haven't played as male Shepard, so don't really know for sure.

Male Shepard's voice acting comes across very flat and emotionless. It's kind of painful to listen to. The dialogue options are the same, but the presentation, while I suppose could be construed as more masculine, just lacks dimension. I guess there's a lot more to read between the lines in Fem Shep's dialogue than Male Shepard's, stuff I honestly can't imagine not being there, which makes Male Shepard's performance all the more jarring. Anyways, she's a great example of a female character, of a character in general. She's multidimensional in a way I haven't seen much of outside of good movies.

 

[realslimshadowen]

Yeah, but that's Jennifer Hale. If Snooki had Jennifer Hale's voice I might find her halfway attractive.

 

[Susan Arendt]

Damn, this is some interesting discourse. Did anyone record (audio or a/v) the actual panel?

Yup, Samus definitely came up. I believe that revulsion could best describe the reaction to her in Other M (correct me if I'm wrong, Susan).

Revulsion works. I once explained the plot to someone and he said parts of it sounded like "bad torture fantasy".

Our reaction was a collective "I am disappoint."

Yes, various recordings were made, but we're trying to get both the panel and the Q&A...so far we only have the panel.