Upgradeable Consoles.

[Hateren47]

My point being : My brother bought a grand gaming notebook

I got to there and couldn't take you seriously any more, he spent a grand on a gaming laptop? You do know they don't have much power and generally have relatively short life cycles. And if your only going to spend a grand on a laptop of course you wont be maxing everything out, when you buy a "gaming laptop" you pay twice as much for half the power, they are a joke.

I have a year old mid range card, 5770, it is still maxing MOST things out, (my processor needs more juice) but as Hateren47 said, the 8800 is still a fine card.

Go and do some research before you start making stupid claims, the price and constantly needing to upgrade stories are a joke, if you know what you are doing you can buy a rig that will last just as long as a console.

I can't take you serious
Grand is the equivalent of great I didn't even come close to saying the thing cost a grand
I'm irish sorry pardon me for not conceding to saying AWESOME at everything we say grand
as for example "how are you doing?" "Grand, you?"

Anyway the thing is that it's not affordable

That was a simple miss understanding, a grand is also 1000. Still doesn't change the fact that gaming laptops are underpowered, overpriced, pieces of crap, yeah you'll run a few games on them, but to expect to run everything maxed out for more then a few new games is ridiculous, laptops don't have the greatest (or even decent) GPUs, generally have shit house cooling, and generally 0 options for improvement once bought, cept maybe ram.

To say that you NEED to upgrade every two months is ridiculous based of not yours but your brothers experience with a laptop. Go do some research about GPUs, Processors, motherboards etc, have a look at some benchmarking, and the rate at which new gear is released and then tell me that you NEED to upgrade that frequently.

Allright? ya heard me? GOOD

It's the simple reason why it failed with the nintendo and why we have console gaming in the first place

Could you at least next time read with grammar in mind?
Thank you, that really ticks me off when someone goes off talking demeaning about me when they themselves are the ones completely at a loss

This is all rather irrelevant since it was one small misunderstanding that actually doesn't really effect or change anything I had to say in my original response. You still should actually do some research for yourself, taking your brothers word that PCs need to be upgraded that frequently because he didn't do his research and spent to much on a laptop is stupid.

I know 2 months was an overstatement but I mean staying at the top quality right? for everything new that comes out keeping up with the top quality in performance on a console is just standard whilst a pc essentially has to be upgraded each time something new comes out to keep up a standard of high standing quality

I know it is not literally so but to set an example is easier and the thing with my brothers notebook was just an example I am not retarded I know you don't have to but the fact of the matter is that the quality of gaming on a console goes in an upward curve in its life time and usually that of a pc Downwards : Unless you Upgrade
Which is why pc's are pc's and Consoles Consoles

PS : I Know A grand is also a 1000 you misread me again apparently If I had wanted to say the thing cost a grand I would have needed to start with the verb PAY as in he payed a grand for it or, it cost him a grand, or He put down a grand for it

You do realise that less than 0.1% (numbers pulled straight from my arse) of PC gamers upgrade their rig every time something new comes out, right? Graphics cards can usually skip a generation or 2 before they need upgrades, RAM and HDD's can be added if you think you need more than you have already and most CPU's stays in the socket once it's set (and is overclocked if you are savvy enough).

 

[Hateren47]

you should learn to snip

Well it is a pretty ridiculous point. Who would release a piece of hardware, which didn't have the appropriate software? And as others have said earlier console expansions have been moderate successes, and the N64 expansion actually made your games look a little better. Also more than a few Nintendo (NES, SNES and N64) games could be seen as hardware expansions themselves because of the added memory in the cartridges. Killer Instinct Gold comes to mind.

You're still missing the point, drivers are not simply just plug and play, you put in your card install the drivers and pray to god you got the right version, and chance are if this upgradable console thing gets put in practice hardware manufactures will release driver updates, and if your upgrading multiple parts you will run into conflicts or the new version will actually bug out etc. It happens all the time with current graphics cards, I had a performance loss when I upgraded to the newest drivers so I rolled back to the previous version, when you encounter this kind of thing on a console you will be WAY to constricted to actually test and fix these kinds of errors. If tools are released(they will need to be) for the consoles to diagnose and fix this issues look at that you again have completely removed the advantage console owners have by taking away the simplicity.

Did you build your computer from scratch?

I did indeed build my last 4 computers myself, I've done it for friends and I'm about to build one for my mother, who is at best, not very good with computers (though it won't be a gaming powerhouse).

I have never had any problems with compatibility because I usually research before I buy and I can guaranty you that if consoles were upgradeable there wouldn't be compatibility issues with the hardware. You probably wouldn't even need new drivers as AMD has pretty much already standardised their drivers to the OS you use and not the individual GPU's by now. Even if it would require new driver I don't see a problem in having the modular console read it's video driver from the GPU module and not from the harddrive, though there should be a way to update drivers in case they release something which works less than optimal.

If you don't trust 3rd party hardware, and who really does, buy 1st party hardware. Also drivers aren't made by 3rd party suppliers, who makes the cards, but by the company who made the GPU.

 

[TheComedown]

I know 2 months was an overstatement but I mean staying at the top quality right? for everything new that comes out keeping up with the top quality in performance on a console is just standard whilst a pc essentially has to be upgraded each time something new comes out to keep up a standard of high standing quality.

This is complete bullshit. As stated before the 8800gt is only just now beginning to age, it has maxed out games, it has been maxing everything out for the last few years and only now its beginning to show its age.

I know it is not literally so but to set an example is easier and the thing with my brothers notebook was just an example I am not retarded I know you don't have to but the fact of the matter is that the quality of gaming on a console goes in an upward curve in its life time and usually that of a pc Downwards : Unless you Upgrade
Which is why pc's are pc's and Consoles Consoles

Again your wrong, there is no set way the quality of PC games work, it changes from game to game, some games are optimized excellently and others absolutely shit house optimization on computer. It varies from game to game and computer to computer but if you actually pay closer attention you'll find while a bit scattered it also is generally going in an upward direction.

For example, I run tf2 maxed out x4 AA and i get roughly the same frame rate as I do on MW2 maxed out at x4 AA not to mention that MW2 actually runs smoother with a more constant frame rate where as tf2 looses a fair amount of frames when things get busy.

 

[Hateren47]

My point being : My brother bought a grand gaming notebook

I got to there and couldn't take you seriously any more, he spent a grand on a gaming laptop? You do know they don't have much power and generally have relatively short life cycles. And if your only going to spend a grand on a laptop of course you wont be maxing everything out, when you buy a "gaming laptop" you pay twice as much for half the power, they are a joke.

I have a year old mid range card, 5770, it is still maxing MOST things out, (my processor needs more juice) but as Hateren47 said, the 8800 is still a fine card.

Go and do some research before you start making stupid claims, the price and constantly needing to upgrade stories are a joke, if you know what you are doing you can buy a rig that will last just as long as a console.

I can't take you serious
Grand is the equivalent of great I didn't even come close to saying the thing cost a grand
I'm irish sorry pardon me for not conceding to saying AWESOME at everything we say grand
as for example "how are you doing?" "Grand, you?"

Anyway the thing is that it's not affordable

That was a simple miss understanding, a grand is also 1000. Still doesn't change the fact that gaming laptops are underpowered, overpriced, pieces of crap, yeah you'll run a few games on them, but to expect to run everything maxed out for more then a few new games is ridiculous, laptops don't have the greatest (or even decent) GPUs, generally have shit house cooling, and generally 0 options for improvement once bought, cept maybe ram.

To say that you NEED to upgrade every two months is ridiculous based of not yours but your brothers experience with a laptop. Go do some research about GPUs, Processors, motherboards etc, have a look at some benchmarking, and the rate at which new gear is released and then tell me that you NEED to upgrade that frequently.

Allright? ya heard me? GOOD

It's the simple reason why it failed with the nintendo and why we have console gaming in the first place

Could you at least next time read with grammar in mind?
Thank you, that really ticks me off when someone goes off talking demeaning about me when they themselves are the ones completely at a loss

This is all rather irrelevant since it was one small misunderstanding that actually doesn't really effect or change anything I had to say in my original response. You still should actually do some research for yourself, taking your brothers word that PCs need to be upgraded that frequently because he didn't do his research and spent to much on a laptop is stupid.

I know 2 months was an overstatement but I mean staying at the top quality right? for everything new that comes out keeping up with the top quality in performance on a console is just standard whilst a pc essentially has to be upgraded each time something new comes out to keep up a standard of high standing quality

I know it is not literally so but to set an example is easier and the thing with my brothers notebook was just an example I am not retarded I know you don't have to but the fact of the matter is that the quality of gaming on a console goes in an upward curve in its life time and usually that of a pc Downwards : Unless you Upgrade
Which is why pc's are pc's and Consoles Consoles

PS : I Know A grand is also a 1000 you misread me again apparently If I had wanted to say the thing cost a grand I would have needed to start with the verb PAY as in he payed a grand for it or, it cost him a grand, or He put down a grand for it

You do realise that less than 0.1% (numbers pulled straight from my arse) of PC gamers upgrade their rig every time something new comes out, right? Graphics cards can usually skip a generation or 2 before they need upgrades, RAM and HDD's can be added if you think you need more than you have already and most CPU's stays in the socket once it's set (and is overclocked if you are savvy enough).

In reality those numbers go to a minimum of 10%
also Do you not read the words `in theory` and `example´???

10%? No, just no. I pulled the 0.1% from my arse but it's probably a lot less and definitely closer to the truth than your 10%. How many do you know with Core i7 Extreme Edition I7-980X / 2 or 4-way SLI GeForce GTX 480 / 24GB RAM? I'm guessing none because very very very few people have home systems like that. In theory that would be the best system for gaming, money can buy at the moment, and its not unrealistic that 99.9% of PC gamers don't have this system.

 

[TheComedown]

Really dude LEARN TO SNIP

I did indeed build my last 4 computers myself, I've done it for friends and I'm about to build one for my mother, who is at best, not very good with computers (though it won't be a gaming powerhouse).

I have never had any problems with compatibility because I usually research before I buy and I can guaranty you that if consoles were upgradeable there wouldn't be compatibility issues with the hardware. You probably wouldn't even need new drivers as AMD has pretty much already standardised their drivers to the OS you use and not the individual GPU's by now. Even if it would require new driver I don't see a problem in having the modular console read it's video driver from the GPU module and not from the harddrive, though there should be a way to update drivers in case they release something which works less than optimal.

If you don't trust 3rd party hardware, and who really does, buy 1st party hardware. Also drivers aren't made by 3rd party suppliers, who makes the cards, but by the company who made the GPU.

You've done it for your friends, did they come from console gaming? You notice how you built it, you did the research, console gamers don't want to look at the options they wont notice the small details between card A and card B. You are still completely over simplifying the whole thing and over estimating the average console gamer.

As for the drivers, thing yeah there should be a way to update drivers, but that would also require a away to roll back drivers, again things are beginning to get complicated (the opposite of console gaming), they release drivers that cause a Red ring or BSOD or something, how are you going to start it up in safe mode and roll back the drivers? You cant, and the companies cant release a new driver to fix the problem because all the affected consoles are currently fucked in the arse. That's thousands if not hundreds of thousands of consoles that have to go back to the shop.

 

[Hateren47]

Really dude LEARN TO SNIP

I did indeed build my last 4 computers myself, I've done it for friends and I'm about to build one for my mother, who is at best, not very good with computers (though it won't be a gaming powerhouse).

I have never had any problems with compatibility because I usually research before I buy and I can guaranty you that if consoles were upgradeable there wouldn't be compatibility issues with the hardware. You probably wouldn't even need new drivers as AMD has pretty much already standardised their drivers to the OS you use and not the individual GPU's by now. Even if it would require new driver I don't see a problem in having the modular console read it's video driver from the GPU module and not from the harddrive, though there should be a way to update drivers in case they release something which works less than optimal.

If you don't trust 3rd party hardware, and who really does, buy 1st party hardware. Also drivers aren't made by 3rd party suppliers, who makes the cards, but by the company who made the GPU.

You've done it for your friends, did they come from console gaming? You notice how you built it, you did the research, console gamers don't want to look at the options they wont notice the small details between card A and card B. You are still completely over simplifying the whole thing and over estimating the average console gamer.

As for the drivers, thing yeah there should be a way to update drivers, but that would also require a away to roll back drivers, again things are beginning to get complicated (the opposite of console gaming), they release drivers that cause a Red ring or BSOD or something, how are you going to start it up in safe mode and roll back the drivers? You cant, and the companies cant release a new driver to fix the problem because all the affected consoles are currently fucked in the arse. That's thousands if not hundreds of thousands of consoles that have to go back to the shop.

Only one of my friends have actually stopped playing and sold his consoles after he got his new PC. Most of them had store bought PCs before I build one for them and have always been PC gamers and the last of them plays both about equally.

Yes upgradeable consoles will be a little more complex on the inside but I can't really see how it affects the user. They already RRoD etc. and PS3 even had its own Y2K problem (February 29th) but I still think it would be very possible to make a modular console with out any more problems than the current generation already have.

Edit:
Rolling back off a faulty driver (one that doesn't work at all) could be done by the OS by it self, a kind of fail-safe system. I don't know of any occasion where a console has been bricked by software that wasn't intended to brick the console, ie. anti piracy measures, but I could of course be wrong.

 

[PatrickXD]

Imagine if every console was sold as a single case with most of the internal hardware removed. You could then buy the graphics card/memory/processor/hard drive separately, each as a single module which you could simply slot into the case you've already bought.

You've just described the basics of building a custom PC.
Consoles are not PC's, they are not meant for upgrades etc. They are meant for the simplicity of a turn on and zoom away style of use. That's what makes them so much more successful than PC's in terms of gaming.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

Lets not begin to mention the amount of 3rd party alternative hardware that would become available. I like the idea, but I'll stick to upgrading my PC. My PS3 is great for a few quick thrills, but I'd rather not complicate consoles. Their beauty is in their simplicity.

 

[TheComedown]

-SNIPPY-

Only one of my friends have actually stopped playing and sold his consoles after he got his new PC. Most of them had store bought PCs before I build one for them and have always been PC gamers and the last of them plays both about equally.

Yes upgradeable consoles will be a little more complex on the inside but I can't really see how it affects the user. They already RRoD etc. and PS3 even had its own Y2K problem (February 29th) but I still think it would be very possible to make a modular console with out any more problems than the current generation already have.

Keep dreaming. New hardware will ALWAYS bring new problems and your looking at tens of thousands very angry frustrated and confused console owners before half the issues are ironed out. Console owners aren't used to such things, they plug it in and expect it to work, that's how consoles are, that's what they are expected to do.

Edit:
Rolling back off a faulty driver (one that doesn't work at all) could be done by the OS by it self, a kind of fail-safe system. I don't know of any occasion where a console has been bricked by software that wasn't intended to brick the console, ie. anti piracy measures, but I could of course be wrong.

Cant be done by the OS if the OS cant launch. I think you're forgetting exactly how closed consoles are.

I've had mates who had ODST RRoD their consoles, I'm pretty sure that wasn't meant to happen. Anyway software like a game or a media player are NOTHING like drivers, drivers being directly in control of the hardware, a bad driver here could easily "brick" a console.

 

[Hateren47]

Spoiler: Snipped for her pleasure

-SNIPPY-

Only one of my friends have actually stopped playing and sold his consoles after he got his new PC. Most of them had store bought PCs before I build one for them and have always been PC gamers and the last of them plays both about equally.

Yes upgradeable consoles will be a little more complex on the inside but I can't really see how it affects the user. They already RRoD etc. and PS3 even had its own Y2K problem (February 29th) but I still think it would be very possible to make a modular console with out any more problems than the current generation already have.

Keep dreaming. New hardware will ALWAYS bring new problems and your looking at tens of thousands very angry frustrated and confused console owners before half the issues are ironed out. Console owners aren't used to such things, they plug it in and expect it to work, that's how consoles are, that's what they are expected to do.

Edit:
Rolling back off a faulty driver (one that doesn't work at all) could be done by the OS by it self, a kind of fail-safe system. I don't know of any occasion where a console has been bricked by software that wasn't intended to brick the console, ie. anti piracy measures, but I could of course be wrong.

Cant be done by the OS if the OS cant launch. I think you're forgetting exactly how closed consoles are.

I've had mates who had ODST RRoD their consoles, I'm pretty sure that wasn't meant to happen. Anyway software like a game or a media player are NOTHING like drivers, drivers being directly in control of the hardware, a bad driver here could easily "brick" a console.

I could be wrong, but in Windows 7 if your video driver crashes your screen just goes black for a few seconds and the driver is restarted automatically. It has only happened to me once and it's while back. But if Windows 7 can pull something like that of why shouldn't the next console OS? And don't go on about how the console OS would have to be more complicated because it wouldn't have to. More complex yes but the user wouldn't know a thing.

I don't know what happened with ODST as I don't really follow the console scene when it comes to games, but I think Nintendo bricked some Wii's as well with an update. How did the ODST thing work? What happened?

I don't think any of those "brickings" were intentional though.

 

[GuideBot]

snip

So basically, you were unlucky when attempting to have a LAN party and that guided you towards console gaming. Fair enough, shit happens.

No, I was 'unlucky' when LAN partying for a decade and decided that that wasn't how I wanted to do my videogaming anymore. I've been doing PC LANing since duke nukem 3d, pal.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

snip

So basically, you were unlucky when attempting to have a LAN party and that guided you towards console gaming. Fair enough, shit happens.

No, I was 'unlucky' when LAN partying for a decade and decided that that wasn't how I wanted to do my videogaming anymore. I've been doing PC LANing since duke nukem 3d, pal.

Good for you then. At the only LAN party I went to we had absolutely no problem so, yeah.

 

[TheComedown]

I could be wrong, but in Windows 7 if your video driver crashes your screen just goes black for a few seconds and the driver is restarted automatically. It has only happened to me once and it's while back. But if Windows 7 can pull something like that of why shouldn't the next console OS? And don't go on about how the console OS would have to be more complicated because it wouldn't have to. More complex yes but the user wouldn't know a thing.

I don't know what happened with ODST as I don't really follow the console scene when it comes to games, but I think Nintendo bricked some Wii's as well with an update. How did the ODST thing work? What happened?

I don't think any of those "brickings" were intentional though.

If a driver crashes the usual response is a BSOD, I've never heard of or seen a simple reboot of the driver. Windows 7 drivers aren't that great, yeah it does it all for you but stability and performance are lost. (and this is all rather irrelevant because consoles don't/won't use windows 7)

They put in ODST it tired to boot up (not sure how far it got) then those magically little green lights where possessed by satan and turned red, really whats not to get? Put game in console, console shits its pants. OF COURSE IT WASN'T INTENTIONAL, that's the point, it was a response to your point about not being aware of software unintentionally causing consoles to embarrass themselves.

Nintendo fucked up some Wiis with an update as well? NO WAY, and you know what, its not going to be the last time this happens. You are still over simplifying all of this and what you say here removes any credence to any of your arguments.

I don't really follow the console scene

Ok ok. I'll finish it off

when it comes to games

So what do you follow? The hardware? Because you know the vast majority[of console gamers] couldn't give a shit about whats in them as long as the games work.

And whats in it for them? Confusion about which parts are better and all those stats(core clocks, memory clocks, bandwidth etc), then worrying about driver compatibility not to mention a few hundred bucks on something that will only make the smallest of differences to performance that will be barely noticed by the average console user.

You are asking console users to think about all the stuff PC users love to play with, the same reason they all play consoles. You are removing the simplicity of consoles, their number 1 advantage over PC gaming. The number 1 reason people will choose console over PC.

As Irridium summed up nicely in the first post.

Well if you could do that then why not just by a PC?

 

[Hateren47]

If a driver crashes the usual response is a BSOD, I've never heard of or seen a simple reboot of the driver. Windows 7 drivers aren't that great, yeah it does it all for you but stability and performance are lost. (and this is all rather irrelevant because consoles don't/won't use windows 7)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Display_Driver_Model

Enhanced fault-tolerance

If a WDDM driver hangs or encounters a fault, the graphics stack will restart the driver. A graphics hardware fault will be intercepted and if necessary the driver will be reset.

Drivers under Windows XP were free to deal with hardware faults as they saw fit either by reporting it to the user or by attempting to recover silently. With a WDDM driver, all hardware faults cause the driver to be reset and the user will be notified by a popup; this unifies the behavior across vendors.

Previous drivers were fully implemented in kernel mode, whereas WDDM is implemented partly in user mode. If the user mode area fails with an unrecoverable error, it will, at the most, cause the application to quit unexpectedly instead of producing a blue screen error as it would in previous driver models.

WDDM also allows the graphic hardware to be reset or unplugged without a proper reboot. In practice, a driver update should not necessitate a reboot.

It could easily work and has apparently being working since Vista.

They put in ODST it tired to boot up (not sure how far it got) then those magically little green lights where possessed by satan and turned red, really whats not to get? Put game in console, console shits its pants. OF COURSE IT WASN'T INTENTIONAL, that's the point, it was a response to your point about not being aware of software unintentionally causing consoles to embarrass themselves.

Nintendo fucked up some Wiis with an update as well? NO WAY, and you know what, its not going to be the last time this happens. You are still over simplifying all of this and what you say here removes any credence to any of your arguments.

I don't really follow the console scene

Ok ok. I'll finish it off

when it comes to games

So because I care very little about games for consoles I don't own, my arguments on the hardware and drivers are invalid?

So what do you follow? The hardware?

Yes hardware and general news.

Because you know the vast majority[of console gamers] couldn't give a shit about whats in them as long as the games work.

I know quite a few console gamers who think they know a whole lot about what goes on inside their consoles. Sometimes they are not very well informed but they do care, and you obviously don't represent them.

And whats in it for them? Confusion about which parts are better and all those stats(core clocks, memory clocks, bandwidth etc), then worrying about driver compatibility not to mention a few hundred bucks on something that will only make the smallest of differences to performance that will be barely noticed by the average console user.

I'm sure it could be colour coded for all the people you just tarred with the stupid-brush. If I were releasing modules for consoles I'm sure I could think of a clever naming scheme. Let me try.

-The console is released in 2015.

-The first GPU is released in 2017 and named Pipino

-The second GPU is released in 2020 and named Harlequin

-The third and final GPU is released in 2023 and is named Auguste

-In 2025 the next version of the console is released.

They could also be named 1st, 2nd, and 3rd or Red, White and Blue or Peter, Paul and Mary. It's just a name and people can usually recognise those.

You are asking console users to think about all the stuff PC users love to play with, the same reason they all play consoles. You are removing the simplicity of consoles, their number 1 advantage over PC gaming. The number 1 reason people will choose console over PC.

Consoles don't really have any advantages over PC. They might be cheaper if you already have a HD TV, but then again they might be more expensive if you only need to upgrade your graphics card. I'm not asking any one to play with anything other than their games. Also you are making console owners dumber than they are. I wonder how any of those stupid console kids ever got their 32Xs, N64 expansions and PS2 HDDs working without a fancy degree in computer science? You would think someone would make these things plug-and-play...

As Irridium summed up nicely in the first post.

Well if you could do that then why not just by a PC?

I did indeed buy a PC, and I think it's the third time I mention it in this thread. I asked if you would buy upgrades, not build them from scratch with your own self coded video driver? And I asked because I don't think console games look that good at all and they still have about 5 years left before you will have to upgrade. Or if you are fine being, in the end, 9 years behind you friends with PCs when it comes to graphics?

And I still can't find anything on ODST. Sure your friends weren't playing the game a little early or something?

 

[TheComedown]

So because I care very little about games for consoles I don't own, my arguments on the hardware and drivers are invalid?

So what do you follow? The hardware?

Yes hardware and general news.

Because you know the vast majority[of console gamers] couldn't give a shit about whats in them as long as the games work.

I know quite a few console gamers who think they know a whole lot about what goes on inside their consoles. Sometimes they are not very well informed but they do care, and you obviously don't represent them.

Note the boldfaced section, its cute how they want to play with the big boys, I know I don't represent them I don't own a console, but I hear to no end from people that do that they are better then PC's in 100 ways and topping the list of reasons are, Plug and play no installation, don't have to worry about compatibility and "the games just work" being PC guy I know first hand that sometimes things just wont work, these are all valid arguments, arguments which are held by the majority of console owners, just go look though any PC vs Console thread anywhere, those on the console side will always tote those arguments.

I would also note that they have NO reason to care about the hardware inside them, its been basically the same since launch, and they are still pushing the limits of, what is it now? 6 year old hardware?, can do, compare some of the 360 launch titles to what they are doing graphically now, for example AVP and Metro 2033. So yeah, as i was saying they have no reason to care about the hardware in them because whatever you get will work with the console, that's the whole point, care free gaming.

And whats in it for them? Confusion about which parts are better and all those stats(core clocks, memory clocks, bandwidth etc), then worrying about driver compatibility not to mention a few hundred bucks on something that will only make the smallest of differences to performance that will be barely noticed by the average console user.

I'm sure it could be colour coded for all the people you just tarred with the stupid-brush. If I were releasing modules for consoles I'm sure I could think of a clever naming scheme. Let me try.

-The console is released in 2015.

-The first GPU is released in 2017 and named Pipino

-The second GPU is released in 2020 and named Harlequin

-The third and final GPU is released in 2023 and is named Auguste

-In 2025 the next version of the console is released.

They could also be named 1st, 2nd, and 3rd or Red, White and Blue or Peter, Paul and Mary. It's just a name and people can usually recognise those.

So your saying over a 10 year life cycle ever 2-3 years console owners should have to fork out 200-300 bucks for a new gpu to keep playing games for only a MINOR performance improvement (don't forget your original terms, more AA, increased fps, and faster load times)
I guess this also comes back to the point about the current gen consoles getting graphical upgrades on the same hardware. Not to mention if consoles needed upgrades it would let the developers get lazy with less efficient codding which would in turn cause the rate at which you need to upgrade to increase.

Consoles don't really have any advantages over PC.

Ok, as I've said I am a PC only guy, but even I know this is completely bullshit.

I'll just start with the first reason Consoles have 1 up on PC. When you go to buy a console you basically have 3 choices, Wii, PS3, Xbox 360, + hard drive size.

When you go to buy a PC, do you buy pre-built? build it yourself? What one will suit my needs? Which brand isn't taking the piss with its pricing? What processor should I get? What GPU, What sound card, how much ram will I need, what OS should I buy. What about all my current data, how will I get that onto my new one.

I could go on but I wont, for time and length reasons.

I did indeed buy a PC, and I think it's the third time I mention it in this thread.

You missed the point of that question entirely, it wasn't directed at you specifically, it was directed at anyone that was thinking of console upgrades.

And I asked because I don't think console games look that good at all and they still have about 5 years left before you will have to upgrade. Or if you are fine being, in the end, 9 years behind you friends with PCs when it comes to graphics?

Console games don't look all that good? http://au.gamespot.com/features/6202552/p-3.html

The differences are so minuet and if its to dark you can just turn up the brightness or whatever, don't forget that those are just stills so once moving those minuet differences will be even harder to notice.

And I still can't find anything on ODST. Sure your friends weren't playing the game a little early or something?

Hahaha... Piss off. It was the standard retail copy, none of my friends have a chipped box or anything like that.

 

[Hateren47]

Are we agreeing that drivers wouldn't be the greatest cause for concern now?

Note the boldfaced section, its cute how they want to play with the big boys, I know I don't represent them I don't own a console, but I hear to no end from people that do that they are better then PC's in 100 ways and topping the list of reasons are, Plug and play no installation, don't have to worry about compatibility and "the games just work" being PC guy I know first hand that sometimes things just wont work, these are all valid arguments, arguments which are held by the majority of console owners, just go look though any PC vs Console thread anywhere, those on the console side will always tote those arguments.

I would also note that they have NO reason to care about the hardware inside them, its been basically the same since launch, and they are still pushing the limits of, what is it now? 6 year old hardware?, can do, compare some of the 360 launch titles to what they are doing graphically now, for example AVP and Metro 2033. So yeah, as i was saying they have no reason to care about the hardware in them because whatever you get will work with the console, that's the whole point, care free gaming.

And whats in it for them? Confusion about which parts are better and all those stats(core clocks, memory clocks, bandwidth etc), then worrying about driver compatibility not to mention a few hundred bucks on something that will only make the smallest of differences to performance that will be barely noticed by the average console user.

I'm sure it could be colour coded for all the people you just tarred with the stupid-brush. If I were releasing modules for consoles I'm sure I could think of a clever naming scheme. Let me try.

-The console is released in 2015.

-The first GPU is released in 2017 and named Pipino

-The second GPU is released in 2020 and named Harlequin

-The third and final GPU is released in 2023 and is named Auguste

-In 2025 the next version of the console is released.

They could also be named 1st, 2nd, and 3rd or Red, White and Blue or Peter, Paul and Mary. It's just a name and people can usually recognise those.

So your saying over a 10 year life cycle ever 2-3 years console owners should have to fork out 200-300 bucks for a new gpu to keep playing games for only a MINOR performance improvement (don't forget your original terms, more AA, increased fps, and faster load times)

I'm suggesting a 3 year plan, it could also only be one upgrade half way through. And i never mentioned anything about price other than the same as the PC counterpart +10% console tax (like the games). Using Xbox 360 with it's Radeon x1900 based GPU as an example, an upgrade to a Radeon HD 5670 would only set you back about $75 + whatever Microsoft would charge you extra. And the 5670 would still blow the Xenon(x1900) out of the water.

I guess this also comes back to the point about the current gen consoles getting graphical upgrades on the same hardware. Not to mention if consoles needed upgrades it would let the developers get lazy with less efficient codding which would in turn cause the rate at which you need to upgrade to increase.

If developers choose to make an un-optimised game they are risking bad reviews and low sales. Low sales means no money from publishers and that means no more game studio. I doubt they would.

Consoles don't really have any advantages over PC.

Ok, as I've said I am a PC only guy, but even I know this is completely bullshit.

I'll just start with the first reason Consoles have 1 up on PC. When you go to buy a console you basically have 3 choices, Wii, PS3, Xbox 360, + hard drive size.

When you go to buy a PC, do you buy pre-built? build it yourself? What one will suit my needs? Which brand isn't taking the piss with its pricing? What processor should I get? What GPU, What sound card, how much ram will I need, what OS should I buy. What about all my current data, how will I get that onto my new one.

I could go on but I wont, for time and length reasons.

No one would get any more choices or less choices when buying a console. They would just be upgradeable.

Console games don't look all that good? http://au.gamespot.com/features/6202552/p-3.html

No they dont. http://au.gamespot.com/features/6202552/p-4.html

The differences are so minuet and if its to dark you can just turn up the brightness or whatever, don't forget that those are just stills so once moving those minuet differences will be even harder to notice.

In CoD:WaW there isn't a big difference, though I can easily see it. More recent games there is a big difference. GTA IV is probably not the best example either, as it can push most PC's to the limit and beyond, but it illustrates my point. The decrease in quality only gets worse as you start moving about and your console has to render shadows, etc. Increased draw distance would also be an upside to an upgrade. I play both Xbox 360 and PS3 enough to know that the graphics aren't particularly impressive

And I still can't find anything on ODST. Sure your friends weren't playing the game a little early or something?

Hahaha... Piss off. It was the standard retail copy, none of my friends have a chipped box or anything like that.

I'm just saying that I couldn't find anything with a quick google search, and I found just one with the problem on GameFaqs (but I didn't bother skimming all 1000+ pages on the ODST board, just the earliest 50 or so) and you didn't link me anything either.

Hope I got all the quotes right, I haven't slept much and it got quite confusing haha.


Edit: I saw your poll thread and don't you think your question was a bit unreasonable for our debate? 200-400 (I'm assuming american) "bucks" is a lot of money and a $400 GPU would draw too much power and create to much heat for a console obviously.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Using Xbox 360 with it's Radeon x1900 based GPU as an example

Didn't the Xenos use a completely new architecture, one that the later HD 2000 and 3000 series cards were based on?

 

[Hateren47]

Using Xbox 360 with it's Radeon x1900 based GPU as an example

Didn't the Xenos use a completely new architecture, one that the later HD 2000 and 3000 series cards were based on?

Yes and no. It did introduce some new design ideas that was used in the R600-series but it's based on and closer to the R500-series in terms of features and performance.

 

[TheComedown]

I'm suggesting a 3 year plan, it could also only be one upgrade half way through. And i never mentioned anything about price other than the same as the PC counterpart +10% console tax (like the games). Using Xbox 360 with it's Radeon x1900 based GPU as an example, an upgrade to a Radeon HD 5670 would only set you back about $75 + whatever Microsoft would charge you extra. And the 5670 would still blow the Xenon(x1900) out of the water.

It's not that simple, the games are optimized to work the current GPU. Throwing a new card in there will cause all sorts of trouble for the current library of games, again developers will have to program scalability into the games, which will also mean less efficiency, look at what hardware is needed to run some of the games on PC when they run on MUCH older hardware in the consoles at the same settings.

Introducing hardware upgrades will undoubtedly cause longer development times for studios cause like I mentioned earlier it would be like programing for a PC, they would have to make the game scalable.

Consoles don't really have any advantages over PC.

Ok, as I've said I am a PC only guy, but even I know this is completely bullshit.

I'll just start with the first reason Consoles have 1 up on PC. When you go to buy a console you basically have 3 choices, Wii, PS3, Xbox 360, + hard drive size.

When you go to buy a PC, do you buy pre-built? build it yourself? What one will suit my needs? Which brand isn't taking the piss with its pricing? What processor should I get? What GPU, What sound card, how much ram will I need, what OS should I buy. What about all my current data, how will I get that onto my new one.

I could go on but I wont, for time and length reasons.

No one would get any more choices or less choices when buying a console. They would just be upgradeable. [/quote]

What is an upgrade if it isn't a choice? Face it, by adding upgrades your adding choices the more choices, the more complex things get.

Console games don't look all that good? http://au.gamespot.com/features/6202552/p-3.html

No they dont. http://au.gamespot.com/features/6202552/p-4.html

The differences are so minuet and if its to dark you can just turn up the brightness or whatever, don't forget that those are just stills so once moving those minuet differences will be even harder to notice.

In CoD:WaW there isn't a big difference, though I can easily see it. More recent games there is a big difference. GTA IV is probably not the best example either, as it can push most PC's to the limit and beyond, but it illustrates my point. The decrease in quality only gets worse as you start moving about and your console has to render shadows, etc. Increased draw distance would also be an upside to an upgrade. I play both Xbox 360 and PS3 enough to know that the graphics aren't particularly impressive

Don't forget that you will see differences in stills that you wont notice when actually playing, not to mention that you sound like a graphics whore. The average user wont notice the difference especially the exclusively console gamers who wont see the graphics on anything other then their selected console. The average gamer doesn't sit down with each game and examine it frame by frame looking for faults, they load it up and start shooting shit up, as long as the guns resemble guns and the blood resembles blood, you have pleased the average gamer.

GTA IV is a bad example as well, it was ported to PC after the console release and controlled like crap compared to the console release. If the guys porting it spent less time bumping up the graphics for the PC release and more time fixing up the controls the PC port probably would have been a much better game.

Edit: I saw your poll thread and don't you think your question was a bit unreasonable for our debate? 200-400 (I'm assuming american) "bucks" is a lot of money and a $400 GPU would draw too much power and create to much heat for a console obviously.

200 to 400 Australian, well I don't understand why you would "upgrade" to something that wasn't new. To upgrade to something of the level that you are now suggesting seems almost redundant and will not solve the issues you mentioned about about console games being less impressive. $200 Australian is an upper mid range card, to upgrade to anything less would be pointless as you wont get the performance increase you are talking about (and just cause trouble for developers), not to mention the HD 5670 you suggested is already $160ish so the figures I gave aren't to far off.

Edit: also if you saw my poll you see that the majority agree with the keep it simple, plug and play philosophy behind consoles.

 

[Hateren47]

Spoiler: Yoink!

I'm suggesting a 3 year plan, it could also only be one upgrade half way through. And i never mentioned anything about price other than the same as the PC counterpart +10% console tax (like the games). Using Xbox 360 with it's Radeon x1900 based GPU as an example, an upgrade to a Radeon HD 5670 would only set you back about $75 + whatever Microsoft would charge you extra. And the 5670 would still blow the Xenon(x1900) out of the water.

It's not that simple, the games are optimized to work the current GPU. Throwing a new card in there will cause all sorts of trouble for the current library of games, again developers will have to program scalability into the games, which will also mean less efficiency, look at what hardware is needed to run some of the games on PC when they run on MUCH older hardware in the consoles at the same settings.

Introducing hardware upgrades will undoubtedly cause longer development times for studios cause like I mentioned earlier it would be like programing for a PC, they would have to make the game scalable.

Consoles don't really have any advantages over PC.

Ok, as I've said I am a PC only guy, but even I know this is completely bullshit.

I'll just start with the first reason Consoles have 1 up on PC. When you go to buy a console you basically have 3 choices, Wii, PS3, Xbox 360, + hard drive size.

When you go to buy a PC, do you buy pre-built? build it yourself? What one will suit my needs? Which brand isn't taking the piss with its pricing? What processor should I get? What GPU, What sound card, how much ram will I need, what OS should I buy. What about all my current data, how will I get that onto my new one.

I could go on but I wont, for time and length reasons.

No one would get any more choices or less choices when buying a console. They would just be upgradeable.

What is an upgrade if it isn't a choice? Face it, by adding upgrades your adding choices the more choices, the more complex things get.

Console games don't look all that good? http://au.gamespot.com/features/6202552/p-3.html

No they dont. http://au.gamespot.com/features/6202552/p-4.html

The differences are so minuet and if its to dark you can just turn up the brightness or whatever, don't forget that those are just stills so once moving those minuet differences will be even harder to notice.

In CoD:WaW there isn't a big difference, though I can easily see it. More recent games there is a big difference. GTA IV is probably not the best example either, as it can push most PC's to the limit and beyond, but it illustrates my point. The decrease in quality only gets worse as you start moving about and your console has to render shadows, etc. Increased draw distance would also be an upside to an upgrade. I play both Xbox 360 and PS3 enough to know that the graphics aren't particularly impressive

Don't forget that you will see differences in stills that you wont notice when actually playing, not to mention that you sound like a graphics whore. The average user wont notice the difference especially the exclusively console gamers who wont see the graphics on anything other then their selected console. The average gamer doesn't sit down with each game and examine it frame by frame looking for faults, they load it up and start shooting shit up, as long as the guns resemble guns and the blood resembles blood, you have pleased the average gamer.

GTA IV is a bad example as well, it was ported to PC after the console release and controlled like crap compared to the console release. If the guys porting it spent less time bumping up the graphics for the PC release and more time fixing up the controls the PC port probably would have been a much better game.

Edit: I saw your poll thread and don't you think your question was a bit unreasonable for our debate? 200-400 (I'm assuming american) "bucks" is a lot of money and a $400 GPU would draw too much power and create to much heat for a console obviously.

200 to 400 Australian, well I don't understand why you would "upgrade" to something that wasn't new. To upgrade to something of the level that you are now suggesting seems almost redundant and will not solve the issues you mentioned about about console games being less impressive. $200 Australian is an upper mid range card, to upgrade to anything less would be pointless as you wont get the performance increase you are talking about (and just cause trouble for developers), not to mention the HD 5670 you suggested is already $160ish so the figures I gave aren't to far off.

Edit: also if you saw my poll you see that the majority agree with the keep it simple, plug and play philosophy behind consoles.[/quote]

A wrote a long response but Yahtzees new video brought the servers down (I guess) as I hit "Post"

Are we agreeing the driver updates/roll-backs and fail-safes wouldn't be a problem? Neither would RAM updates? Can we agree that developers don't develop for consoles because it's easier? Can we agree that a HD 5670 is leaps and bounds beyond the Xenos, and can use the same power supply? And also that it was released at the same time as the larger varieties in the same series? Can we agree that 8x-16xAA looks a lot better than no or 2xAA?

I'm not gonna go into whether I'm a "graphics aficionado" or not but it's definitely obvious that video comparison is a better benchmark than still images. You don't see flickering shadows and "jaggies" in images. Also consoles don't use any setting beyond medium of the PC counter part as they simply don't have the power.

I don't care what hardware costs in Australia and neither does AMD or Microsoft as they are both american companies. Also I'm pretty damn sure manufactures would get a rebate if they ordered 30 or 40 million GPUs.

Yes the user will have to get their wallets out if they want the newest hardware but that's no different than any other scenario like a new HDD, wireless adapter or other extra bits. All of which are completely optional.

My question was if you would buy it, not whether you think it would be difficult to install, produce, work as a concept or anything else.

If it was plug-and-play, set-and-forget, improved you graphics dramatically (higher resolution textures, improved draw distance, AA etc.) and cost (US)$99.99, would you buy it?