US 2024 Presidential Election

Phoenixmgs

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You didn't answer my question. Was he those things or not? He wasn't convicted of them.
Technically not.

Look at the 2 felony counts (including one conspiracy count) of obstructing an official proceeding under 18 U.S.C. § 1512, 1 felony count of conspiracy to defraud the United States under 18 U.S.C. § 371 and 1 felony count of conspiracy against rights under 18 U.S.C. § 241 he's already been charged with. The whole bullshit immunity case was specifically to shield him from charges related to Jan 6.

There's also the 1 count of violating the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, 1 count of conspiracy to commit impersonating a public officer, 2 counts of conspiracy to commit forgery in the first degree, 2 counts of false statements and writings, 2 counts of conspiracy to commit false statements and writings, 1 count of filing false documents and 1 count of conspiracy to commit filing false documents at the state level related to trying to overturn the election and I'm sure there's a perfectly reasonable argument why Trump should be immune to state law.

Of course, if you argue the existing Trump immunity decision should make him totally immune to all charges on both topics, then we go right back to the whole "As Commander-in-Chief giving orders to the military is a core duty and thus absolutely immune, as is writing pardons. So Biden could order the military to do something illegal and pardon them from that conduct and be immune" thing. Such as executing 6 Supreme Court Justices. Though I know you'll be weirdly limiting on this particular sort of conduct, while things like the false electors scheme are definitely immune, somehow.

I'm just waiting for the arguments that Trump should be immune to state law for conduct that took place before he took office (aka the NY case) or federal law for conduct after he left (aka the documents case, presuming either DOJ wins an appeal or simply re-indicts the case without the special counsel in charge of it to resolve the issue). It will be entertaining to see how the 6-3 SCOTUS opinion in Trump's favor will argue that makes any kind of sense.
I said where are the charges for being a traitor (aka treason) or being an insurrectionist?

I don't really care about the immunity ruling because it really doesn't change much. Not even Nixon was arrested and he was caught red-handed, and that's before the immunity ruling.

Doesn't matter. He spend months stoking their anger and then pointed them to a target. And given the months of him pressuring Pence to illegally crown him this was clearly his way to intimidate him to still do so, or punish him for not doing it. Trump didn't tragically lost control of a mob that worshipped him.



Again. The impeachment were conditional of doing crimes. Had Trump not behaved as a rogue entity there'd be no impeachments. What choice did Trump even leave the Democrats after blackmailing a foreign leader to interfere on the election for him? Even if we were to accept the argument that the Democrats were dying to remove Trump then its still Trump who gave them the means to do it by behaving in the most corrupt way he could.



Because that's how the system works. The US is a de facto two party system. And while you can refuse to take part of this in disgust this does automatically surrender ground to the worse option by far. And given the fact that this is an objectively known fact I'd say the people who stick to this argument despite knowing this are suspicious. Perhaps the whole ''lol both sides!'' might have worked in the Romney vs Obama era but its severely outdated. They're simply not the same any longer. Even at their worst the Democrats simply aren't half as vile as Trump and the Maga movement.

The idea that the Republicans aren't a threat to democracy is just weird. Even if were were to ignore that Trump is almost cartoonishly vile, even if we ignore the coup then its simply a fact that he follows the same playbook as Putin, as Erdogan, and Orban and wherever those parties gain power democracy is always dismantled. That's just an objective fact. Their ideology and policies are incompatible with democracy, and their actions keep proving this. If all those parties are hostile to democracy then why should we pretend that the Republicans alone would somehow be different when they follow that playbook?
Then if democratic voters go and riot at the Capitol if Trump wins and they claim they are doing it to preserve democracy, you going to say it's Biden's fault (or democrat's fault) for constantly lying about the election being to save democracy?

There was no Russia Collusion, it was all a lie dude.

The US is only a 2 party system because people keep voting for both parties. Every single person can simply vote for other people, that's literally how democracy works. Dude, the democrats don't even believe the republicans and Trump are a threat to democracy. Why do you think they were gonna run Biden? Do you think if they thought democracy was actually on the line, they'd run Biden? Why do you think all the other democrats are eyeing the 2028 election? Because they know there will be a 2028 election.
 

Silvanus

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Technically not.
You believe he was not a gangster?

Is the outcome of legal proceedings the ultimate arbiter of truth for you? I.E., if someone isn't caught doing something, they therefore didn't do it?
 
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Hades

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Then if democratic voters go and riot at the Capitol if Trump wins and they claim they are doing it to preserve democracy, you going to say it's Biden's fault (or democrat's fault) for constantly lying about the election being to save democracy?
Wait where was the lie though? Since Trump is out to take out Democracy. Remember. He's following the playbook of Putin and Orban, not of Merkel and Rutte.

But....yeah I would say they'd be traitors if they respond to Trump's victory by trying to overthrow the government and lynch Harris. That they at least try it for actual reasons rather than their Republican peers doesn't dispute that its indeed treason.
 
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Thaluikhain

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You believe he was not a gangster?

Is the outcome of legal proceedings the ultimate arbiter of truth for you? I.E., if someone isn't caught doing something, they therefore didn't do it?
It's traditional to point out the conviction of witches proving witches exist.

Though, I think it was the reverse Nuremberg defence; "I was only telling underlings what to do" thing again.

As an aside, I believe that Capone's wealth, even not counting for inflation, put him beyond the level where there is precedent for being convicted of murder in the US.
 

Phoenixmgs

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You believe he was not a gangster?

Is the outcome of legal proceedings the ultimate arbiter of truth for you? I.E., if someone isn't caught doing something, they therefore didn't do it?
When you make a legal law about something (like say insurrectionist or murderer can't run for office), then yes because you can't allow for multiple interpretations and must be legally convicted as such or else it all goes to shit. Same way you must be convicted for a sexual crime to be on the sex offender list.

Wait where was the lie though? Since Trump is out to take out Democracy. Remember. He's following the playbook of Putin and Orban, not of Merkel and Rutte.

But....yeah I would say they'd be traitors if they respond to Trump's victory by trying to overthrow the government and lynch Harris. That they at least try it for actual reasons rather than their Republican peers doesn't dispute that its indeed treason.
Trump is not out to take out democracy, that is beyond ridiculous. Why would the democrats be actually running Biden (which they waited to the very last minute to sub out) with those horrible polling numbers if they legit thought this election was to preserve democracy? And you think Harris is the best democrat to put on the ballot if you have to do everything in your power to win this election? All the other "next in line" democrats are waiting for 2028. The democrats either don't believe it themselves or are like the most incompetent party ever.

Would the Democrat politicians that kept repeating the lies be traitors though? That's what I'm talking about with the Republicans. Yes, the people that actually broke into the Capitol to actually try to change the election results would be traitors, but who from the Republican party actually did that? That's what I've been getting at the entire time.
 

Trunkage

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Democrats really believed in rights during covid... You would get forced to leave a park trying to teach your kid to ride a bike.
Do you even have kids?

Here's what I did with mine. Found was to play with them at home. Because I'm an adult

Anyway, yes. Right can work like that. Like, businesses being banned from implementing unsafe work practices or the police being banned from murdering you (unless you provoke them which would be classed as self defence). You wanting to go to a park does not trump the damage you could cause during a pandemic. Quarantines have exists for thousands of years. This dates back to before Rome
 

Eacaraxe

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Because that's how the system works.
Duverger's law, yadda yadda.

The US is a de facto two party system.
One party, really. Democrats and Republicans differ in two ways: one, is public rhetoric about abortion, guns, and LGBTQ+ rights (note the use of the word public); two, is Democrats kill legislation in backrooms and committee while Republicans at least let it get to the floor (so they can filibuster it).

Even at their worst the Democrats simply aren't half as vile as Trump and the Maga movement.
Man, if you seriously believe this, boy howdy do I have some nice beachfront property in Kansas to sell you.

This is where that use of the word public to which I brought attention comes in. Most Democrats don't believe they shit they say on the campaign trail and in front of the press, least of all about abortion, guns, and LGBTQ+ rights. Democrats as a party are every bit as -- if not more -- bigoted and troglodytic than Republicans on social/cultural issues, they just have the common sense to not say it publicly.

Then they turn around and stab their own voters in the back, by killing progressive legislation before it can ever make it to the floor, blame Republicans and rotating villains for it, and gaslight their voters into continuing to support them on vague hope the same people, elected to the same offices, will spontaneously some day actually follow through on campaign promises. And good luck actually primarying most of these shithead Democrats, because they are bar none the absolute masters of primary ratfucking and the landscape of contemporary party machine politics makes Tammany Hall pale in comparison.

The very fact Copmala Harris, the OG Quid Pro Ho, the Senator from CCA, was unilaterally coronated as the candidate for the highest office in the land without a single primary vote cast in her favor, being heralded as a progressive champion despite her entire fucking career to the contrary, should tell you 1968 can and should be now considered the halcyon days of Democratic machine politics.

I know this all from personal experience, specifically thanks to my history working for the Democratic party all the way from childhood straight through to my college years. I've been in the smoke-filled backrooms, and at least in terms of Indiana state politics in one incident I know where the bodies are buried. And that is not an hyperbolic or rhetorical statement. Hell in 2008, I was in the room when the Congress-asshole for which I was volunteering my time reassured his donors -- and the American Taliban voters he was courting to siphon votes from his Republican opponent -- Obama's pledge to codify Roe meant nothing because he and the rest of the Blue Dog caucus would ensure no bill codifying Roe would make it past committee (and they did).

In fact, that was the last day I ever donated so much as a microsecond of my time to a Democratic politician.

These people are garbage. I know more than one Democratic politician who's pissed over Trump, not because of anything he did but because he did shit they support and they're obliged to oppose it. January 6th wasn't a disaster for these people, it was a moment of reprieve and catharsis because it meant they no longer had to pay lip service to BLM in the wake of the Floyd/Taylor protests -- because "saving democracy" and "fighting right-wing extremism" meant they could continue full-speed ahead on increasing cop funding and eroding civil rights and liberties.

Trump and the MAGA people are more respectable than your average Democrat. They are, at least, honest and up front about who they are and what they want. Democrats will lie to your face with a smile about how important gay marriage is, while setting the stage to overturn Obergefell and reinstate DOMA. Malcolm X and MLK, Jr., were absolutely right about them -- not that you ever read a word they said about white liberals and white moderates in any educational level, outside maybe a grad-level black history class.

The idea that the Republicans aren't a threat to democracy is just weird. Even if were were to ignore that Trump is almost cartoonishly vile, even if we ignore the coup then its simply a fact that he follows the same playbook as Putin, as Erdogan, and Orban and wherever those parties gain power democracy is always dismantled. That's just an objective fact. Their ideology and policies are incompatible with democracy, and their actions keep proving this. If all those parties are hostile to democracy then why should we pretend that the Republicans alone would somehow be different when they follow that playbook?
Oh, Republicans are absolutely a threat to democracy.

It just happens to be the case so are Democrats.
 
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Thaluikhain

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Abortion rights in the US were a lot safer until the GOP owned the SCOTUS, though, for one example. The difference between the parties is small, and seemingly getting smaller all the time, but there's still a margin that's important for a lot of people.
 
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Eacaraxe

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Abortion rights in the US were a lot safer until the GOP owned the SCOTUS, though, for one example. The difference between the parties is small, and seemingly getting smaller all the time, but there's still a margin that's important for a lot of people.
Note how little a fight Democratic Senators put up on that, despite the Republican majority not being filibuster-proof and Senate Democrats having every opportunity and reason to teach Mitch McConnell a lesson or two in obstruction.

They rubber-stamped those Trump appointments, and they did it for a reason.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Do you even have kids?

Here's what I did with mine. Found was to play with them at home. Because I'm an adult

Anyway, yes. Right can work like that. Like, businesses being banned from implementing unsafe work practices or the police being banned from murdering you (unless you provoke them which would be classed as self defence). You wanting to go to a park does not trump the damage you could cause during a pandemic. Quarantines have exists for thousands of years. This dates back to before Rome
You do realize that by closing outdoors areas, that only caused more covid spread, right?
 

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You do realize that by closing outdoors areas, that only caused more covid spread, right?
So... let me get this straight. You think that if I stayed in my house, I would get covid?

Do you think Covid somehow got wall breaking abilities? Wait, do you think Covid is a tornado or a bushfire?
 
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gorfias

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Taxes on couches!?!?

Now he's made it personal for JD Vance!
I've screwed a couch. The couch loved it.

ITMT: between stolen honor and empowering courts to over-ride a parent and have that parent's child sterilized and mutilated, Tampon Tim should be un-electable. Never mind how he and his love the smell of burning cities.

Just heard advice that top issue against Kamala is not the border. That is number 2. Number 1 should be that she had to know that Biden was a husk of a man, incompetent to govern (though still in office! I predict until the Democrats need a news cycle and he will stand down before the election and elevate Kamala to POTUS) but said and did nothing but did her best to cover his decline up (along with the US Media that said he was "the best Biden ever". And now, with no one voting for her, will be the Democratic party nominee for POTUS. Very strange times in which we are living.
 

tippy2k2

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ITMT: between stolen honor and empowering courts to over-ride a parent and have that parent's child sterilized and mutilated, Tampon Tim should be un-electable. Never mind how he and his love the smell of burning cities.


EDIT: Since you liked my post and I want to be clear: I am PRO-Walz and pro him supporting LGBT rights (and the StOlEn VaLoR shit is stupid as fuck, especially coming from President Bone Spurs and Guy who wrote Press Releases in Iraq for a few years)
 
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Agema

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ITMT: between stolen honor
Given that his opponents are a guy who dodged the draft by paying a doctor to make up a fake foot condition, and another who spent 6 months writing propaganda safely in the rear trenches, I don't think Walz has anything to worry about from this accusation.

However it goes to show just how little respect Americans really have for their veterans.
 

Hades

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Trump is not out to take out democracy, that is beyond ridiculous.
I still think that's a really weird argument

''Yes Trump tried to stay in power after his defeat without electoral or popular mandate LAST time but lets assume he'll play by the rules NEXT time even if he strives to give his cronies powers to throw out election results over the same lies he used as his basis to stay in power last time''

Or ''Yes Trump models himself after authoritarians who keep overturning democracy but lets say the Republicans are the sole exception to that rule even if they're do cartoon villain stuff like striving to deprive workers in Texan summer of water, or children of lunches''

Its beyond ridiculous. Neither Trump nor the Republican party has given any indication they can be trusted with democracy and have in fact expressed deep seated hostility towards it.

Why would the democrats be actually running Biden (which they waited to the very last minute to sub out) with those horrible polling numbers if they legit thought this election was to preserve democracy? And you think Harris is the best democrat to put on the ballot if you have to do everything in your power to win this election? All the other "next in line" democrats are waiting for 2028. The democrats either don't believe it themselves or are like the most incompetent party ever.
Oh that's simple. Conventional political wisdom believes in the incumbent advantage and name recognition. That's it.
 
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Hades

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Man, if you seriously believe this, boy howdy do I have some nice beachfront property in Kansas to sell you.
I think you're mostly just looking at things solely at the lens over overturning the Reagan consensus and ignore every single other thing.

Sure. Democrats won't overturn the Reagan consensus and they'll always be a center right party. Okay. But there are other factors, and harm mitigation is not a bad thing for a voter to do.

No I don't think the Democrats will overturn the Reagan consensus. I don't think any party would and the Democrats typically don't even RUN on that. So I find the outrage unfounded and honestly kinda petty. The American overton window being divided between far right and center right sure is annoying, but its the situation the country finds itself in, and surrendering the nation to the far right is not the remedy some leftist have deluded themselves into thinking it is.

Lets say the Democrats collapse as they deserve for not being left wing enough. And lets be wildly unrealistic and suggests a real left wing party has fully formed and is ready to run four years after that. That still leaves four years of Republicans being allowed to dismantle the system and replace it with their authoritarian vision. Doesn't matter if this mythical real left wing party turns out hugely popular if project 25 just gives Republicans power to throw out election results they don't like. Has the far right taking over a country and dismantled its democracy ever led to a left wing party winning in an election that the ruling far right power rigged years in advance? Doesn't seem to have happened in Hungary, or Turkey, or Russia, and in Poland's case it were the maligned dirty centrists who took the lead in kicking out the far right.

Accelerationism simply won't get the result you want.
 
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